Is our congregation absolutely necessary? The short answer is no. We are not the only United Church in our city, so I have no doubt that folks could find other places to worship - and I also have no doubt that the members would find other places to volunteer. If we were to close, it would be difficult for the community groups that use our building to find another space - especially groups like the Scouts and Guides, who use our building for free. Although there are several other churches in our immediate area, none of them have anywhere close to the amount of meeting space that we have. I think that we would be missed by the community if we were to close.

Sounds like your church is really involved with the greater community.  I wonder how many United Churches would be missed, like yours would be if it shut down.

I think that it is a really important question.  All the talk around the United Church future so far has been very narcissistic.  What can We do to survive,  How can we serve ourselves better.   RevJamesmurray  when he contributed to WC would say that a church had to have a mission in the community in order to grow. Other than him I see no talk about the church serving others. Serving physical and spiritual needs of people in the greater community.

Can a church survive if it only talks about or thinks about it's self, and it's own needs?   The churches in the UCC that I believe that have a future are serving more than there own needs today.  But they seem to be the exception to the rule.

There are no churches in my neighbourhood AFAIK.  There are some in the industrial area adjacent to it.  When you go the next step up to small city areas, there are still no United Churches.  Going right from one end of this city to the other, on this side, there are no United churches, and a major road as well as a highway would have to be crossed to get to one.

If I look at the entire city and a church were to close, yes, I think some group would step in to fill any gaps.

SO Chemgal, would you say that your UCC provides a place of worship and community that is unique in your city?

or whould you say  your church provides the spirtual centre tp people in your neighbourhood.

Does it include people  due to it's theology, history, geography or praxis (practice) that would not  be welcomed elsewhere, or feel welcomed elsewhere in your city?

WC is definitely unique and I think it's quite welcoming.  As far as I know, I'm the only person from my neighbourhood here.

Double Post

I agee with you on WC.it fills a unique niche on the net. While other sites exist about theology, WC also provides community for those interested in faith or non faith, of which other boards do not.

But what about your local United Church  Does it include people  due to it's theology, history, geography or praxis (or other factors) that would not  be welcomed elsewhere, or feel welcomed elsewhere in your city? Or does it do things for the community that would otherswise not be done?

Does my city need the United Church?

Not necessarily, though there are a lot of important services being provided or hosted by UCCan congregations here (meal programs, work spaces for non-profits, etc.) that would need to go somewhere.

OTOH, there aren't many Christian churches that I've seen around here that are as welcoming as the UCCan. The three that I've attended are either Affirming, working on it, or at least practicing it fairly well. The are all open to theological diversity and identify as liberal or progressive (though none go quite so far as, say, Gretta Vosper). Losing a church like that would be a loss.

A more valid question is "do we need as many United Churches as we currently have"?

Likely not. We've seen some church mergers/closures/downsizing in the 14 years I've lived in London. We have two of the largest UCCan congregations in the city literally walking distance from each other in the downtown so there's one obvious place consolidation could occur (though, given differences in their outlook and the fact that both are still a decent size, I don't see anything changing imminently).

I, for one, would miss the United Church if I was in a community without one and I didn't have a UU option. However, in the end, as long as I could find a church liberal enough to tolerate my presence and satisfy my requirements, I wouldn't call the UCCan a necessity.

Mendalla

How do you define that?

what is AFAIK please?

CH AS far as I Know-AFAIK

Tangent Alert!

And what is IIRC? 

I see that one a lot, too. 

What could a UCC congrgation do in order for you to consider it a necessity for yourself or for your community?

If I recall correctly.

Glancing at it, this one should have most if not all of the common ones:

http://www.gaarde.org/acronyms/?lookup=A

Thanks Chemgal!

I think that's more or less there in my answer, Alex.

For me personally, be the most open, welcoming (both in the everyday sense and in the formal sense - in UU'ism "Welcoming" is comparable to your "Affirming") . However, in the presence of a UU congregation, I don't think they would ever be a necessity for me.

For the community, it is harder to say what would make them a necessity. They would need to be providing some service, other than just being a church, that no one else is providing or at least be an indispensible partner in ensuring that such services are being delivered. Simply being a church in and of itself is never likely to be a necessity in this age. Perhaps, as I said above when discussing what would make them a necessity for me personall, being an open, welcoming church when there is no other such church around could do it, but not simply being another church among many.

Mendalla

Here in central Etobicoke (west-end of Toronto) there are plenty of churches of various denominations, including more than one United Church. I would imagine that if all the United Churches were to close, many of the congregation members and adherents would just go to other denominations' churches. Presbyterian churches, perhaps, or maybe Anglican.

Well, our four UCC congregations just amalgamated, which means if we would cease to exist, the closest one would be about 20-35km to drive for people.

Having said that, a lot of people, being unhappy with the events of the amalgamation, had no trouble switching to the Baptists.

This surprises me theologically, but considering that many people come for the fellowship and not so much for faith formation, then theology doesn't really matter. (Except if you are divorced or live common law- we had baptist switching to us, because they weren't accepted as active members teaching Sunday school at the local Baptist church.)

So, for that reason, I think the presence of a UCC would be important- if we would live what we preach. Now, our outreach is as good as not existing with regards to accepting / involvement with people who are "different" in the community.

I do still have some hope we might come around some day, but I have to say, WC represents the values of the UCC way more than I ever experienced a UCC congregation here in rural NS.

maybe the ucc could look into Franchising?

and perhaps going IPO?

You can point out that itheological ssues around sexualty and marriage allow you to serv/ minister to divorced and common law. Since they have no other options in your community.  Thus it "may"  also serve people who are also marginalised, or whose adult children are becasue of LGBT issues.  

BTW I was born in Amherst.  

Hi Alex,

In Waterford the food bank is a community venture not a denominational one.

The AA group was here before I arrived on the scene so I do not know why they meet here rather than at the Anglican, Roman Catholic or Baptist Church in town.  They met somewhere when we had the fire though I am not sure where.

A parishioner recently approached our congregation about a support group for adults with special needs.  I presume she approached us first because this is her home congregation rather than because all other Churches in town turned her down.  

A few years ago our congregation, finding a gap in the Christmas hamper program run by the Salvation Army in Simcoe (it was not easily accessed by individuals in our community who were without transportation) took responsibility for such families in Waterford.  We now provide hampers for those individuals and sadly the demand is growing.  In three years we have gone from 8 to 11 to 15 families in our town of 3000.

We contribute to the breakfast program at the local public elementary and secondary schools.  I do not know if other Churches don't or won't support the program.

After the fire the Anglican Church did offer us the use of their building for our worship needs.  That offer was accepted until we could get back into our memorial hall which was not harmed by the fire.

I think would is not likely.  They certainly could if they were of a mind to.  Research in this field shows that most Canadian individuals who lose their congregation for one reason or another simply drop out rather than transfer to another congregation or denomination.

The Baptist situation here in the region is rather unstable.  Local lore has it that the Baptist Church in town splits every 7-11 years.  A split at Boston Baptist has created a new Baptist Church here in Waterford just outside of town.  No idea how that is going to impact if at all.

The Anglican Church ruptured over the Anglican's homosexuality fracas.  With the splinter group joining some African Synod.  They recently purchased excess property belonging to the UCCAN in Wilsonville as their worship space.  My understanding is that particular property has no toilets so that will be interesting.

At any rate congregations that do not appear to be in good health don't seem to attract new members from established congregations that can get along with one another.

Does Waterford need a United Church?  Don't know.  They have one for now.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Maybe the Anglicans plan to become environmentally friendly and install composting toilets?  If money is an issue they could even use the old style ones - out back with air   conditioning provided by the breeze!  (Tongue in cheek!)

More on the real topic here - I can't think of any visible things that the local UC does that is important to the area.  They provide space for approved community events (recently a Philippines fundraiser), they provide a room for AA meetings and similar small groups that run their own agendas. They will provide a funeral to absolutely anyone which is viewed postively by the population.

I know they provide money for M&S and other charities. They give unhealthy food to the Food Bank as do many others (salty canned soup, sweetened canned vegetables, over processed cereals etc).  Few people seem aware that the churches and many individuals support the Salvation Army Food Bank (they aren't very upfront with their thanks and acknowledgements).

Mostly the the UC seem to maintain a building as an almost private social club, I think. 

Do we need it?  The answer would be Yes for those who belong Probably Not for everyone else (though the access to a minister for funerals is appreciated by non-church supporters)  I just realised that I don't know if there is a charge for the use of the building and minister, maybe I should ask someone about that.

While I can't speak for other Baptist churches, ours believes in using its space to further the Gospel. Hence, we will rent out space to other evangelical churches, but don't rent to non-Christian groups such as AA.

There is no charge for the use of a room at the church for the AA group - there is also Al Al Anon.  Jae - what 'furthering of the Gospel' is done at your church during the time AA isn't allowed to rent some space? 

I can think of lots of ways the local UC church could serve the wider community.  Unfortunately they all require some money and the members are mostly busy raising money for building maintenance and regular bills.

It's like you want Baptists to be despised and are trying out different bullshit lines on us to see which ones get the most negative reaction.

Seriously, why are you toying with us?

Do people beleive there  is a link between a church that does or provides things that is truely needed by the community.  As opposed to a church that looks to exists for itself? and the vitaility of said church.

(Sorry for the akward wording, but i hope you get my intention

The serenity prayer is the motto for AA:

The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference.

What about this is non-christian?

Alex - I think the local UC is busy being busy.  When they have raised money for this and that thing that is needed for the building, salaries etc they don't have the energy to do much else.  They are an aging group, slowly getting smaller as people die or go to the nursing home.

That is often the case. But are we confusing cause and effect.  If they did other things would they than have more ,and younger groups and familys

.

As someone just entering my fifties I am among the oldest members of my church. We rent space as oppose to owning a building, and we have a ;large sunday school and youth group.  Up until last year we were also the only Affirming church in Ottawa. And the only Protestant CHurch that openly includied LGBT people. (a Anglican Church also includes LGBT, but they are a High church that is filled largely with liberal  Catholics.

Our niche was including those excluded by other UCC churches, not just LGBT, but also feminists, progressives, people in recovery, and those with children looking for Sunday Schools.    Allowing Children was as big an issue as allowing LGBT.   When my church had decided it was not worth the expense of upkeeping a building, we looked to other UCCs in the downtown Ottawa area.  None wanted us. One UCC wanted us to stop being Affirming, while another UCC  wanted some of the memebrs said they did not have children who might wreck their building..(it was suggested we would have to remt another space for the Sunday School, sadly  this church was more or less on the grounds of the Uof O, where 10s of thousands of young people with or without children attend))  Sadly we  moved outside the downtown, as we only could find space in another neighbourhood.  2 of the downtown church that rejected sharing their building have closed, while the rest soon will be.  (Except for one that meets it's budget through renting out the parking space, and the building to secular groups for concerts.    

Perhaps if these other churches look at what their neighbours needed and would use as oppose to what they wanted they would have a future as my church does.

I still debate whether the membrship of churches in the downtown core (who come from the burbs) are indifferent, ignornant , or hate filled. However they likely have all 3 present.

Remebr Jae and others like him have an extremely narrow view (and a heretical one as well) of what is a Chrisitan 

This is what many churches think of AA.  from this link  http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq525.html

the A.A. approach to healing and recovery is racked with New Age liberalism that accepts any false god and the unbiblical doctrines attached to that entity. Alcoholics Anonymous does nothing to get to the root of the drinking problem problem, which is sin and they fail to understand that there is an absolute disconnect from the true biblical God, which ultimately feeds the progression of any addictive habit. This type of therapy takes a person away from the true God of the Bible opening a wide door to false religious practices.

And, yet, some atheists complain that AA is too Christian and too religious. *shakes head*

On topic, and addressing a point of yours from upthread, I think that reaching out into the world can energize and renew purpose even for individuals. I certainly find that when I get involved in something outside the realm of work and family (e.g. doing worship at my fellowship), it can revivify me to some extent. So I think a church that is having internal problems may actually find that taking on an external project or mission could actually help "reboot" them internally. Not saying it is the solution for every troubled congregation, but it is likely to help at least some. Certainly, reviving our social action group has helped with re-energizing things in mine.

Mendalla

If I were a member of AA. Christian and United Church, I would find Jae's comment very offensive. These comments and others  are what made me leave the Baptist Church when I was 13,14 years old.

Crazyheart, it is too bad that some people just drive others away. It is also difficult to understand why some people are so intenet on putting barriers between human hearts instead of putting some love between them.

 I know people who have received a warm welcome from AA and who are closer to the other group members than they have ever been to their church congregation.   To me it seems petty, small minded and unkind to shut out AA groups from a church building. Fortunately there are sometimes choices in denominations.

I believ it is the same for the indiviudal, or the chuirch , and online comunities.  It is an illusion that or well being  are totally serperate entities.  That illusion  is what leads to so much evil and or decline in the world.  It is why humans continue to behave in ways that will destroy the earth. It leads to racism, homophobia and misogyny.

Our health depends on our communities and the worlds health.

Hi Alex,

Depends on how one is defining vitality.  Vitality is one of the latest buzzwords to hit the Church growth sector.  It can be described as both the capacity for survival and purposeful existence while those two are not necessarily hand in glove.

Any Church that is self-sufficient (able to pay its bills) has vitality.  It may not be vibrant or attractive.  Churches that are dependant upon others but have attractiveness and vibrancy are also vital.

One can be one or the other without being both.  Though I personally would like a combination of the two, self-sufficiency and an attractive vibrancy.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I suppose depending on how defines vitality. We  could  say  a church that has no memebrs living in it's neighbourhood, has had a declining memebrship  for 25 years,and today gets less than 5% of it's income from member givings. (the rest largely coming from a business of renting parking space, and to a lesser extant endowments)  sends no reps (other than it's ordained minister) to presberty, HAs less than 50 membrs who attend services, in a building on  land evaluated at over 10 -15 million.

IS that a  picture of a vital church?  IS that a church that has a future? 

Or it a picture of a vital business, with a future as an exclusive condo development?

Hi Alex,

Definitions are important.

If vitality is only defined as surviving then the definition fits such a Church.  The real question is for how long will it continue to fit because such a Church will eventually die.

It is surviving which according to the definition of vital fits.  Which is the problem with buzzwords.  We use them for a specific definition and forget that there are others which can still be applied.  We redefine what we want the word to mean.

Well yes, not a bright and shiny one but a future nonetheless.

I don't think it qualifies as a business if all it does is let out its space.  Business takes place within it, the most it offers anyone is a place.  It qualifies as property and those who have been able to rent it out are stewards of a property.

The Church meets for worship and so long as two or three gather in Christ's name that meets the minimum criteria of Church.

Is it a happy portrait?

No.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Alex - I realize that you have an agenda about the UCC in Ottawa.  I don't live in Ottawa and its been fifty years since I attended a church there.   If what you say about the Ottawa churches is true (and I take your word for it), it might not apply to the rest of the country.

My church is in the heart of the city.  Unlike a century ago, or even 50 years ago, the majority of the congregation do not live within walking distance - except for those few who consider an hour walk in the cold of winter invigorating.  So yes, we commute from the outskirts to the downtown.  Some of us pass one or more UCCs on our way. 

But would our church be missed?   I've already mentioned many times the outreach our church does to the people living in the downtown (or on bus routes into the downtown - we are right across from the bus terminal), and to our members.   Yes, we would be missed.  We would even be missed by those people who come in for a hot cup of coffee and a voucher for groceries and ask "Is this a Christian church?"

We would also be missed by members of the congregation.  There is a reason why we drive past other UCC and churches of other denominations.  We are starting the Affirming process, and have long welcomed LGBT people.  We practice progressive theology.  We have study and discussion groups where we can ask honest questions, express doubts and not receive pat answers.  We care about one another.  We are accessible to those who might have physical, mental, emotional, or socal/economic problems.  And we are gradually rebuilding our programs for children and youth.   We would be missed.

Usually when the local Food Bank has a drive for donations they request certain things:  This week - pastas and kraft dinner.  Next week - canned soups.  Then - cereal.   Then - peanut butter or cheese whiz.   I am at a loss to understand why - unless these are what they clients really want.   But no wonder people donate these items when its what we are led to believe they need.     

Whenever I donate - through my UCC - I give things like a bag of oatmeal, or macaroni and a large can of tomatoes, or a couple of cans of salmon  (they specifically request non-parishable).   And our church lets it be known that the most useful gift to the food bank is money.  Then they can buy in quantity, buy what they need, buy fresh vegetables and dairy. 

I also have been known to donate toilet paper or pet food.  I know people who would go hungry to feed their pets.

As I said, kay, we rent out space to other churches that they may hold their worship services there. Also, we hold our own activities during the week such as youth group, free community suppers, Bible studies, and conversational English classes.

It isn't necessarily Christian as there's no mention of Christ.

Hm, I don't know, Mendalla. To me that sounds too much like couples who try to revive their marriage by having a baby.

Alex, what do you think is heretical about the Christian belief system which I have chosen to adopt?

Interesting to see how generous Christians are to other Christians.  Jae admits that his church charges other churches to use the church!!  As I said, kay, we rent out space to other churches that they may hold their worship services there.

Seems to be an integral part of the confusion the God of Christianity enciourages.

I'm not sure myself. That I'm aware, insanity isn't automatically heresy.

Kay - in this case I think Jae is right.  It costs money to run a building.  If another congregation is going to be using their church building for an extended period it seems right that they should share expenses (or pay rent). 

Back on topic - would you or anyone else miss your church if it wasn't there?   Of the six UCC in this city I think we could close two - yes, they would be missed at first but the members of the congregations could find homes within the other congregations and continue their outreach work. 

It is harder for me to form an opinion about the rural churches I visit.  The people who meet faithfully to worship on a Sunday morning would certainly miss them.  They seem important for funerals (the graveyard is often behind or beside the church); and people like them for small weddings.  The congregations contribute to M&S.  They also contribute to the community - baby showers, visitation, food bank, caring for their neighbours.  Would they organize in the village hall, or switch to another denomination if their church wasn`t there, is hard to say.  I think they would be missed.

seeler - I agree that it takes money to maintain a church building.  Jae's church refuses to rent a room to AA.  Somehow it sticks in my craw that they take money from other Christians - aren't all Chrisitans supposed to be worshipping the same God?