No.

Augh. Why do the families of unchurched people automatically search for a church when the unchurched die? If they're worried about an afterlife for their loved one, that loved one left the cramming a little late. What is wrong with a funeral home?

Tab, isnt the rule for Revenue Canada. You can not charge any different for members or non members.?

double post

we are a young church. I think there may have been one member funeral.

We don't really have a precedent for anyone.

so notf4 prophet-If someone walked in off the street and asked for a funeral for a family member your church would say yes and there would be no cost?

anyone else care to add their church's policies?

We do have a fee for funerals (to cover the costs of the minister, building, music, etc), but I'm not sure how much it is or whether it costs more for non-members. I do know that often some of the ladies of the church will provide tea and biscuits for a small fee (I suspect this is free for members).

We do many funerals. There is a Board set fee for use of the church, organist, caretaker, sound tech. This is billed directly to the funeral director and included in the final bill to the estate. The UCW charges $5/plate for the after service reception, based on the family estimate of numbers. the standard honorarium for clergy here is $200. The local non-clergy officiant ( a DSL'd by request United Church minister) charges $400.

There is no difference in charges for members and non-members. CRA doesn't allow that. Staff have, on occasion, declined compensation for various reasons.

Who is cramming? A funeral is the end of the journey in this life and for those baptized, a procession to the next. For those not baptized, a funeral home makes perfect sense. Otherwise, the church is appropriate.

There can also be practical reasons like space requirements.

A really good book to read all about Christian funerals is Tom Long's "Accompany Them With Singing". It's comprehensive and would be helpful for anyone developing a funeral policy for a church.

Thanks DKS.

Family members have attended service the last 2 sundays-it comforts them that it is a church funeral.

They do not live here.

I don't honestly remember a single funeral taking place in my Baptist church. 

Riiiight. The "next life". Clearly the person who was not a member of a local church, and may or may not have been baptized in the first place, was really, really worried about your ridiculous "next life" hypothesis.

Perhaps, but lots of places have the space. I think what we really need, is a more accepted way of handling funerals for those who did not believe, or just didn't give a damn about religion. In my experience, people just automatically seek out a church or at least a minister when someone they are responsible for dies. It's often an automatic reaction to death, and we need to have a better option, more in keeping with the position of the person who passed away.

I've not been to a humanist funeral, so I don't know what that would be like. I've been to a humanist wedding, and that was okaaaay, but it seemed odd, for some reason, and it wasn't the lack of God-talk. it just seemed...forced..like they were trying to ignore the topic of God more than they were trying to celebrate a wedding. Maybe I just experienced a below-average humanist.

I understand the need for ritual, in terms of comfort. Ritual is one thing the church has that the non-religious do not. I think that the lack of dogma completely makes up for it, as I find it more unsettling when God is injected into eulogies about people who obviously thought God was a useless concept while they were alive.

If I am ever responsible for a funeral, I'll need to do some research. I know there are people who have written about funerals for non-believers, but I'm focused on not needing that information yet.

Is not the funeral for those still living?

"notf4 prophet-If someone walked in off the street and asked for a funeral for a family member your church would say yes and there would be no cost?"

Why would there be cost? We have the church, we have the minister, we have the facilites and church ladies who always put on a small lunch. We are a community and practice the charity our Lord had His original followers partake in. It's not like we are a funeral home who have their own expenses..

Chansen, just because someone is 'unchurched' doesn't mean they don't believe in God.  Some of those people would want to have a church funeral.  Some athiests would want it as they know their family would be comforted by it. 

There are also those whose families just go against their wishes.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That's one reason why people need to sit down with members of their families and discuss this difficult topic.

There are those families who simply do it out of habit. Hopefully, that habit abates, once we get better at doing without a religious component at funerals.

I've been to surprisingly religious funerals at golf courses, when I was told it was not being done in the church under any condition, as the person was an atheist.  In one case, the minister was chosen from a fairly evangelical denomination by a member of the immediate family. I am unsure what the minister was thinking. Seemed odd.

re policy. 

Yes there is a charge. 

Yes, it can be waived by staff for whatever reason is appropriate to them.  I had cheques returned by staff members when I paid them for my mom. Others donated the money to the preferred charity.  It happens. I did not expect it to be returned or donated.

I think it's important to tell your loved ones what sort of a ritual you would want when you die when you are still in good health - be it a funeral in a church or a funeral home, a wake or something else entirely. 

I don't remember ever hearing this discussed at my church (althought I was on session whn we discussed our policiies about weddings and baptisms).  I will just speak from what I think would happen if a person with no connection with our congregation approached us about a funeral for a family member who also had no connection.  If there was no conflict with the minister's schedule or the use of the building, and if the person was in agreement that it would be a Christian funeral, then I think it would happen.  We have a schedule of fees for use of the building, custodian services, music, etc.   A reception would be a separate matter - arranged through the UCW. 

For church members (either the deceased or their immediate family) the minister and the church would probably do more scrambling about to rearrange schedules and make the funeral a priority.  And the charges would most likely be cancelled, although donations would be accepted - perhaps as a memorial for a special project (sound system, new hymn books, wheel chair ramp.  

The UCW would most likely put on a spread for one of their own, again without charge. 

It's been many years now since my brother died suddenly, accidentally.  He didn't attend church -- he wasn't an atheist, he was actually quite spiritual.  But he didn't attend church--most alcoholic street people don't.

We three sisters, from three different provinces, met.  We agreed that he should be cremated and his ashes taken back home to be buried in the little country church yard, with our parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins back a century or more.  None of us still lived in the area or attended the local UCC, but I lived an hour's drive away.  So I asked my minister if he would do a commital service.  Yes, but as a courtesy he would contact the minister in that pastoral charge.  We phoned a cousin who knew who to contact about having a little grave dug.  How many could be expected at the funeral?  We added up family members and a few others and answered - a dozen, maybe fifteen. 

We arrived at the church beside the graveyard.  Two ministers, mine and the local one, a choir, the sanctuary full.  A beautiful service of scripture, prayer and music - then a solomn procession out to the grave for the commital service.  Then across the street to the community hall for the reception. 

"hello, I went to school with your brother."

"we played ball together."

"I'm your second cousin once removed."

"I remember the time when Bill and I ...."

No charges were ever mentioned.  We made a donation to the perpetual care fund for the cemetry, and a gift to each of the ministers (who said that they would give it to the church).  I don't think they even took out their mileage expenses. 

As for the choir --- they were glad to do it.  'Sorry for your loss.'

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. That's one reason why people need to sit down with members of their families and discuss this difficult topic.

What is so difficult about it? Death is a natural progression of life; not to be either feared or avoided. It just is.

It is exceedingly rare for a family to have a religious funeral out of "habit". Having organized more than a thousand funerals over the years, it is a conscious choice, either by the deceased prearrangement or by the executor.

You might want to read Jessica Mitfords screed "The American Way of Death" where she describes the "perfect" non-religious funeral. Guess what? It' actually quite religious and very, very empty.

The world has changed. I recall us having set charges for funerals in rural New Brunswick in the 1980's. The way of the free will donation should be long gone. Even donations to cemetery perpetual care don't meet expenses these days.

BTW, the ministers would still be required to declare the gift as income. The CRA is nasty like that.

For non-members, we have the services of UU chaplains who charge for their services (it's a set rate and not exorbitant). Members get the minister. Use of the church facilities would be handled as a rental, I believe. If there is an after-funeral reception at a members funeral, it's generally potluck or possibly volunteers organized by the pastoral care committee so no cost there. Most non-member funerals are off-site (chapels, funeral homes, etc.).

The funerals (many UUs actually go for a memorial service), whether done by a chaplain or the minister, are generally prepared in cooperation with the family. There's no set service for the dead or anything, it's whatever the family decides is appropriate. My wife's thesis supervisor, a longtime UU and former president of the congregation who died of cancer in nineties, didn't have a service at all, just a reception in the fellowship hall/sanctuary (we don't have the space to have the hall separate from the sanctuary).

Like others, I've seen some funerals that just weren't a good fit for the person being honoured even if it worked for the family. My buddy who died a couple years ago had a Christian funeral (albeit in a funeral home's chapel) in spite of being a longtime non-believer. Mercifully, they invited one of our old group who is an atheist to give one of the eulogies and his remarks put things back on the right track.

Mendalla

I haven't arranged a local funeral for anyone  though I have attended lots.  Getting back to the original question my view is -

no fee for the minister or the basic church building

set fees for organist

choir

re-arranging seating

any extras like printing service sheets

lunch.

The fees should be written down and readily availalbe to all via the webpage or a handout at the office. 

This makes it possible for anyone to have a funeral at an affordable price  from that location.  Friends could provide music or provide lunch at the church or elsewhere. 

Over50 years ago we were married in a United Church Sanctuary. 4 in attendance . We had paid a sum for organist, janitor and minister. Before the wedding, he asked for 20 bucks more for himself over and above what he had already been given.Dug around and found it but left a bad taste in my mouth still all these years later.

"Even donations to cemetery perpetual care don't meet expenses these days."

It is interesting in reading about expenses that the goodwill and love thy neighbour aspect is all but gone. Where are those who would gladly do the upkeep save for say the gas expense. Has it become easier for a congregation to buy their way out of any actual hands on caring for their own? What does this teach? That God's wll can be served by using the ways of the world He does not love?

We invoice the family directly; $300 for a service outside the church (funeral home, usually); $400 for a supporting family at the church; $700 for a non-supporting family at the church.  In most cases, when a funeral is outside they church we deal with it through the funeral home.  

We contract with a caterer for food when a reception follows in the church hall and charge $100 regardless of whether they are supporting or non-supporting for use of the church hall.  The cost of food ranges from about 8/person for sandwiches/squares to 25/person for a full meal - we rarely have anyone request a full meal.  There is an additional charge for coffee/tea - I believe it is $1.50/person.

Honorariums are included in the charges when the service is at the church for minister, organist and janitor.  When the service is not at the church there is an expectation of a honorarium for the organist (who is often someone other than the music director of the congregation) and is arranged through the funeral home.  If the service occurs on one of my "days off"  (Friday or Saturday; holiday Monday) the $300 fee for the service is paid to me (donated back to the congregation, usually, when the deceased is a supporting individual (member or adherent).; otherwise the fee goes to the church.

We have these fees explained on sheets which are given to the family when I meet with them; they are discussed and explained.  I have the discretion (given by the board) to waive the fees in circumstances where I believe them to be an unreasonable burden, which rarely happens (there are fee schedules for a basic funeral for people on welfare/social assistance which most funeral homes in my experience are aware of.)  We do not post the information on the church's website - I'll consider it when funeral homes begin posting the detailed fee schedules they have on their websites.  In British Columbia it is the "law" that funeral homes must have a fee schedule available for people on request but funeral homes will rarely offer it freely to people.  I'm now much more comfortable saying to a funeral home (after learning that the funeral homes here charge $600 for Roman Catholic and Orthodox clergy; and $250 for protestant clergy) this is the fee.

I checked out the church I've attended a few times.  The costs are fairly similar to weddings, and are listed on the website.

$650, $100 for a reception after (food is still extra, it's just for the room), $100 for a soloist, $50 to have a slideshow and another $50 to get the office to put it together.

I'm not sure why, but I expected a funeral to be significantly less than a wedding.

"I'm not sure why, but I expected a funeral to be significantly less than a wedding."

It's a perk of that death do us part escape clause.

But, from the church's standpoint, it really isn't. Weddings may well be more expensive than funerals for those involved (I say "may" because costs of caskets, etc. may push funerals into the same range, IIRC), but much of that comes from other costs (more elaborate receptions, professional photos, clothing purchases/rentals) that likely wouldn't come up for a funeral and have little to do with the venue or officiant. For the church, the minister's time is worth the same amount no matter which ceremony it is; the office still has prep work to do; the cost of heat and hydro doesn't change. The musicians, if used, cost the same. So, I'm not surprised that the cost of using the church for a funeral is similar to that for a wedding even if weddings may overall be more expensive.

Mendalla

I agree Mendalla, without thinking it through it just wasn't what I expected.  Maybe it's because a wedding is planned and death isn't (although planning the funeral would be the same amount of work as a ceremony for the minister).

When did funerals become a business for the church? When did the church itself become a business? How does it compare to Jesus day? Should there be a difference?

tell me more about the congregation you attend not4prophet. How do the "UCW ladies" feel about always being asked to provide lunches? Is there a food budget or does it come from their family's resources.

Our church rents space. We do not own a building. We meet our budget but it is a deficit budget and within 2 years our reserves will be gone. Then what?

When a community member with no church connection asks to use our space I feel it is approriate to pass some of the costs on to that person.

We are a community in farm country of about 2000 people. It's not like we have a daily stream of funerals but everything is not only on a voluntary basis including choir or organist, but each brings sandwiches or baking of their own accord. It operates much the same as if would have in Jesus' time. Often the community hall is used. Again,it is there to be used. 

I can see where there is cost to run a fledgling church that there may be a need to charge to cover rentals or whatever but iI guess it is up to the individual churches to provide in any way they wish. Most rural towns have always been on a volunteer no charge basis. Perhaps that shows smaller is better and raising money to expand the operation is not always the wisest plan. Are we  the church or a business?

This  is what I dont understand. Revenue Canada as I understand it says that all families members, supporting, non supporting,have to pay the same thing. Being part of a church family does not give one perks.

DKS above stated  There is no difference in charges for members and non-members. CRA doesn't allow that.

not4 - your community sounds rather like the one a friend lives in.  Small population, they mostly know each other at least a bit.  If you rarely have funerals it could easily be that people from outside the church bring food, volunteer to help is some way etc.

Some congregations in larger communities have an average of three funerals a week.  If I was a member AND a member of a Church Ladies group - the delight of digging into my tight budget to donate funeral food would fade quite rapidly.  Most of us have a limited amoung of money to donate and want to share it around, especially if we have already donated directly to the church. 

Taking my thoughts in another dierection - one friend remarked - Funny that its always the women being asked to provide food and never the men.

BBQ at funerals? Good plan. 

Yes I can see where 3 a week might be burdensome but at the same time that obviously means a large congregation no doubt and the ratio large or small, should be the same. Either that or there is considerable more accidents and illness within the catchment. A large congregation has more to spread around and all need not volunteer for every funeral. I wonder how long before funerals which are almost defunct of any sign of the dead, will have socials to cover costs and photographers and so on. Remember when mourners used to bring their own food for themselves and the family when someone was laid out on the dining room table for three days?

They always were. Tom Long's book, which I mentioned earlier, has a chapter on this.

Seen the price of gas? We used to hire the local kids to cut the cemetery. Graves were dug by a guy who didn't have any other job. It helped.

I'm a bi confused here - are we talking about funerals or are we taalking about catering.  I don't associate the two in my mind.  I've been to funerals both in a church and in a funeral home where no lunch is provided, to some where lunch is on the premises, and others where a reception was at a different location all together.  I've known them to be catered to by family members or friends of the family, or by the church women, or by professional caterers.  To me the reception is separate from the funeral  (as it usually is with a wedding). 

So, let's talk funerals -

It bothers me that something so closely related to a persons faith is being treated like a business.  This is the congregation gathering round the bereaved ones in their time of need.  This is seeing a person through the final stages -- we welcome them at birth, baptism, through Sunday School, faith development, marriage, regular worship, and as a final act we say our good-byes.  This is part of what being a church means to me.  We come, we contribute, we take care of others, and they take care of us. 

We have the minister on salary.  They preform their duties -- one of which is funerals.  For those who block out their time,  I would suppose a funeral would come under pastoral care.   And some weeks there might be two separate funerals taking up more than the alloted time.  But, let's be honest, there is quite a bit of flexibility in a minister's time.  Two funerals this week - then he recycles a sermon from a previous church, or finds one on-line, or he works a 50 hour week, and cuts back a few hours the following week to attend his son's piano recital.  He's paid. 

Likewise the custodian - he's paid to work a certain number of hours a week--some weeks he might be setting up chairs for a meeting, some weeks cleaning the Sunday School rooms, and some weeks it will be a funeral. 

Cemetry costs - again that is a separate item.  Even if the cemetry is beside the church, it is usually run as a separate identity.  I know when Mom died our family bought a plot.  We also paid into perpetual care.  In this particular cemetry most of he work is done by volunteers, with one person paid to mow the grass. 

Good post seeler.

Ho boy. Try three, four or five funerals in a week. Then you have some idea of how busy ministry can be. Plus everything else. I suggest that you are quite out of touch with reality. Caretaker. Ours is very busy. The snow shoveling in winter can take 2-3 hours a day.

Cemeteries. Go read the Trusts of Model Deed and the provincial Cemeteries Act. It complex stuff. I have spent the last two years working with the board of a local United Church cemetery dealing with matters about the property. Lawyers and surveyors were involved. It was a mess which is now being cleared up.

Really. It's a lot more complex than you imagine.

DKS, does it have to be or do we make it more complex.

So 2 people die and services are required, Like seeler says this is part of the minister's call . Days off back to back, high holidays off = maybe the minister should be meeting with the Personell ctte and show them that more staff are needed.

If we are going to turn down funerals, it makes one wonder if the church REALLY is relevant?

The church with about three funerals a week doesn't have a particularly big congregation.  Mostly they are 55+, starting to slow down, dying, and this church is the ONE in the area that will hold a funeral for non-members.  If the minister is doing that many funerals, other 'minister duties' will have to be dropped.  Working with the young folk?  Visiting at the hospital and nursing home?  Going to meetings?  Participating in Bible study?  Which should it be?

It seems to be easy to say ''they shuld hire more staff'  - but what if they can't afford to do that?  The reality for some congregations is that they are having a hard time staying ahead of the fixed expenses.   

If you think that every church is just like yours, then I'd suggest that you are the one who is losing touch with reality. The ministers at my church are very busy people, however I've never heard of there being more than 2 funerals there in a week. Once we had two funerals and a wedding the week before Holy Week - but we are fortunate to have two ministers to share the responsibilities. Like almost every other United Church minister I have ever met, our ministers spend way more than 40 hours/ week at work doing things like pastoral care, planning special events (for example an upcoming weekend with Bruce Sanguin), doing work for the wider church (one's on a national committee, the other does plenty of work at the presbytery level) and spending way too much time in committee meetings.

As for the caretaker's job - again it depends on the congregation. Some buildings are small and rarely used on days other than Sundays. This is not the case in my congregation - we have a large building that has multiple user groups throughout the week. Our caretaker comes in 5 afternoons/evenings a week (40 hours a week) and vacuums, cleans and sets up chairs for all of the different groups. Because we live in an area where snowfall is unusual, snow removal is not a part of his job description - instead we rely on volunteers to come in on those days to do the job. Our parking lot is small so it doesn't take long to shovel it.

Does it not seem that the larger the congregation, the fewer the volunteers. Is this because the attitude is one of, well there are so many no one will miss me? Does this not also lead to decreased attendance for the same reason? Servitude, after all, is a key requirement of followers of the Kingdom. Is bigger better?

Four or five funerals a week!!!   On a regular basis???  

How big is your congregation?  What are you doing to your people? 

In the small church I used to attend, we had a minister who complained that he had never had a funeral in his three years with us.  He moved on to greener pastures, and in the next few months two of our long time faithful members died.  Since then I would imagine that congregation averages two or three funerals a year.  And, yes, sometimes they would be in the same week. 

The larger church I now attend would have more -- maybe two or three a month.  But we also have a part-time minister for pastoral care.  He does quite a few of the funerals, particularly for older members who have been on his pastoral care list. 

I presum that the minister meets regularly with the M&P committee and gives a rough accounting of her time.  If a disporportionate amount of time is being spent on funerals, they need to look at staffing, sharing of responsibilities, priorities, etc.  

But I don't think charging a set fee would be the answer.  If my minister is doing four or five funerals a week, then he probably doesn't have time for his other duties, regardless of whether he is being paid extra for each funeral or not.  Actually I'm not sure of the ethics here:  he is being paid a salary to serve the congregation - on top of that he is paid for each funeral he does during his regular working week (flextime).  

Now it would be a different matter if he choose to 'moonlight' for a local funeral home, in addition to his salaried time at the church.   hat would be something he would have to negotiate with the official board. 

I can assure you that after more than three decades in pastoral ministry, nothing I have said is out of touch with reality. I am reflecting on United church pastoral charges from seven points with seven services on a Sunday to a large urban congregation of 350 members where I am now.

Never heard of more than two funerals a week? I have done four in three days. And had to preach on Sunday.

Comp time? Please. There are times when that is just not possible. My own M&P committee has said that aside from weddings and funerals take comp time in the summer and between Christmas and New Years. It works. Vacation is always during the summer and for one month.

We live in the Ontario snow belt. We have the parking lot plowed. We have a snowblower. But we get six feet of snow every winter. That's not appropriate for volunteers and a large, multi-user building.

It is made more complex by external factors. Government regulation, for one thing. The cemetery issue I mentioned involves the grave of a famous Canadian artist. Making sure the United Church has clear title to the cemetery is important.

Second staff? In my dreams.