I thought all churches usually have to fundraise to make up their budget to a certain degree- how do you split it into wages and other stuff (heat  and so on?). True, wages are usually the biggest part of it, but you could as well say you fundraise to keep the heat going?

From what I experienced, when you have a great shortfall at the end of the year, congregations dip into savings or investments and then should be starting to think how they are making their budget for next year and if the tendency is serious, they have to talk amalgamation or part time work for the minister or selling the big ol building.

Why I brought it up. A church had a fowl supper - one of their biggest fundraisers. Not enough folk to help,, not enough tickets sold- football game got in the way. They are thinking of not having one next year for these reasons.

A scenario that I'm sure a lot of churches face today.

At this moment in time we rely very little on fundraising.  Any fundraising done is used for special projects and also for outreach in the community and away.

In saying that, we recognize that in about two years our financial situation is going to change drasticallly.  Several of our members who contribute much to our church family are moving away that we know of.  And other life situations will also have an effect on our financials.

The fundraising we currently do will not meet the losses we are going to incur.  And our ability to increase fundraising is unlikely (due to our age demongraphic and number of people able to do so).

What will we do?  I don't know.

It is hard to cut back on ministry personnel hours . . . it would be affecting the livlihood of our minister, whom I venture to guess needs fulltime work and pay.  And the church would have to be careful not to expect the status quo for less money.

Membership drive . . . I honestly believe for the most part, most of the people in our congregation are already giving what they can.  There are some who give, and give, and give, and give.

Renting . . . we currently rent probably as much as we can.

Charge $$$ for holding funerals . . . our policy says "no charge", but indicates there is an honorarium for the minister.

I don't know what we will do . . .

Having served on many church congregational and official boards.  I know how hard it is for churchs at times.  Being able to meet the bills and wages is a very delicate balancing act.  It is especially hard for a small church with a small congregation who already is penny pinching to meet the church needs.

Fund raising is nice.  However, if you don't have people in the seats who can assist financially, it's tough.  One of the ways a church I use to attend and I was on the board for.  Needed to raise money.  One way was, we held a Strawberry festival Tea Party.  We served Tea and Strawberry short cakes. That people from the congregation put together, And we had refreshments and party things for children that came with parents.  It was wonderful.  The members of the congregation who took part paid for everything out of their own pockets to put it on. It was a fun time for all.

Renting out space in the church building for different groups and activities.  As well was a way to make some money for the church.  But, still even that is hard as many churches don't have the space to be able to do that.

It is hard for many, since the demographics as mentioned by other posters change as time passes, and people die, or move away are no longer there contributing thus making it even harder to meet the needs already stressed as it is.  Putting fresh bodies in the pews is fine and good, unless those that fill the pews are themselves unable to give financially to fill the gap made by the changing demographic.  More bodies in the pews doesn't mean they are able to go above and beyond contributing beyond what is needed.  It would be wonderful if they could.  But, being realistic, in todays situation, that is a pipe dream.

I don't have the answer... all I can say is try the best anyone can and don't stress your congregation beyond itself.  Do what you can afford and do what you can as you are able.  The world is changing and sadly some churches are being forced to change with it.

*Peace* ~ ~ *Peace*

Wolfie

Thinking of town or city churches:

First I would look at the types of fundraising and ask "Are they serving a purpose?" Rummage sales, I would say a definite 'Yes'. We have people who depend upon our rummage sales for quality used clothing, bedding, and household items. They are grateful and excited when they get a pair of winter boots for a dollar, and a brand-name winter coat for $2. It keeps good, usable stuff out of the land fill - recycling. And it adds a few thousand dollars to our budget each fall. So, whether or not the church was making money (and it does ad up) I think that the rummage sales serve a purpose. Renting space - definitely. The building needs to be heated, we need water and electricity and janitorial and secretarial services whether the building is only used for worship, congregational activities, or meetings. So if the church can provide space through the week for day care, adult literacy, anti-poverty association, boys & girls club, concerts, or even for businessmen who like to play basketball during their lunch hour - go for it. Let them share in the expenses of running the building. If it becomes a problem with Presbytery, allocate your entire income from envelops and PAR to paying salary, and use income from fundraising or rentals for maintaining the building.

I think that cutting back on staff would be self-defeating. It would mean also cutting back on services offered. Cut back on services and you loose members. Loose members and you loose donations and workers. (It happened in our congregation when we cut back on staffing for youth work - youth, and their families, stopped coming - in five years an entire group of teens were lost. We are now working with the middle-school kids - trying to rebuild.)

I've been told that going on rich text editor and hitting the enter two or three times would put spaces between paragraphs.   It doesn't work for me.

Hi Seeler yes it was I that said that.  It works for me using the Rich Text Editor option. I hit [return] x2 so that it moves down 2 spaces and type the next paragraph. I don't know why it is not working for you. Perhaps Aaron might have a suggestion or any of the other admins.

After admins. I hit [return] x2 and as you see there is the proper spacing for me. Does anyone else have any suggestions or ideas to solve this?  I know how frustrating it is to write and put a single space to indicate the next paragraph only to have it mash everything together into one lump.... I'm very sorry my suggestion hasn't helped Seeler.

*Peace* ~ ~ *Peace*

Wolfie

(So as to NOT derail this THREAD... I've started a new thread about this paragraphing issue in SOCIAL).  Please continue talking freely about the Opening Post!  Thank You!

I tend to think that a congregation/charge fundraising to pay bills speaks loudly of a problem. We tend not to see it that way. It may not even appear that way for a long time.

When schools are fundraising for equipment it is because they are underfunded by those responsible for funding or there are too few students attending, etc. There is a problem. If fundraising bridges the gap there is often no movement towards responsible stewardship.

For me, it is akin to a church living on credit cards. You are heading into trouble.

If your building is too big for the people, face it. You can face it and move to a smaller space or you can amalgamate (like schools do) or hopefully, you reach out to the community and have valid and good reasons they should reach back. If two companies merge or a company needs to take on a partnership to avoid bankruptcy, we know they are forming an unhealthy partnership unless plans being made and changes made.

We have been happy to fundraise but it becomes a crisis when those who raise funds no longer can or want to volunteer or the church can simply no longer feed 250 folks a roast beef dinner.

Then, fundraising becomes completely internal. All fund raising is for the operational budget. Why bust butts that are tired, old, too busy, ill… to make 100 dinners for the exact same folks to buy tickets to? Why not each toss in the cost of the dinner and escape the work?

The goal becomes keeping the doors open. There is no outreach and no mission. Focused on survival, the reason for being a Christian community is quickly lost and when that is gone people who are seeking community are also lost.

Then, when the lack of fundraising and the lack of community members means the budget is not balancing… the answer is to dip[ into savings with no intention of putting it back.

Then, they cut back. Imagine a company disconnecting the phones or a cab driver not buying tires.

Then. the next step it is to cut hours or staff to save more money.
 

Who wants to join an unhealthy operation unable to meet its basic obligations? You are now in the last-ditch attempts of keeping doors open. People can see the “For Sale” sign in the near future, so why move in?

As one might notice, I have never been a fan of fundraising, though I have done a ton. I prefer responsible stewardship, environment AND finances. We should spend, invest and save wisely.

I think that what generates and regenerates needs strengthened. It may mean new phones and new tires. It may mean hiring someone and not laying off. It may not mean keeping the same person that is not working out.... It may also mean talking about money and being honest and saying it costs X dollars and that means Y dollars from each is necessary or we need to come up with another solution.

It may be that nobody wants to be financially sound and then, just close the doors and sell the assets and I do not recommend waiting until the bank account is empty and the debt is piling high.

Fundamentally, a church structure is based on donations given by members.  Membership is decreasing = funding is decreasing.

Ministry is supported by donations of congregations - that, historically, is how the Christian church operates.  And congregations are shrinking in size.  And that means less money to hire a minister.  And also other important staff required to run an efficient church.

So, do the math.  Examine ways to raise funds and apply for whatever grants are available at  the municipal, provincial and federal levels.

The church occupies a downtown corner.  It has virtually no parking lot.  It is open seven days a week.  It serves the community in various ways.  The building is big and old and costs a lot to maintain - but probably less than it would cost to tear it down and build a new, efficient building on the spot - and in doing so the city would lose a beautiful historic building.   It needs to be where it is to do its work.   But the congregation is struggling. 

They are looking for creative ways to maintain their space. They are trying not to be negative - they believe that they have a mission to fulfil. PAR, donations, bequests, fundraising, rental (sharing of space and expenses). But hopefully not closing their doors. Their sanctuary has perhaps the best autistics in the city. Their stained glass windows are famous. Their arcituctural style unique - but it is their service to those in need that makes them special.

Perhaps related to this topic.  Does it make sense to sit on trust funds, and/or use only the interest if it also means cutting staff and services which will eventually mean closing their doors?   Or should a church use their trust funds (perhaps with the help of a lawyer and accountant) to keep functioning until the money runs out?

When a church is picking up on social services that should be provided by the government, shouldn't the government provide a grant or some sort of financial assistance to partially cover these services?

Our congregation needs fundraising to meet our deficit budget. We have fiancial reserves that will last 2 years at our current level of expenses.

We rent a building (at 1000 month) that is for sale.

Repairs/utilities/insurance cost another 1000 a month.

Our minister is full time-and paid above the minimum salary

Our admin. works 3 mornings a week.

Our pianist gets paid.

We give 10,000 a year to M and S

We are a new congregation-5 years old

We are looking for long term solutions.

seeler, if a church is living the faith then they should do what it takes to keep feeding the hungry, clothing the destitute, sheltering the homeless..... 

tabitha, wow.

I know what you mean about internal fund-raising . . . it certainly becomes tiresome after a while. If these church dinners function as community outreach or have some other purpose, that is one thing.

But if they become an internal cycle, they are just going to burn everyone out eventually. 

As an internal cycle they are... well... stupid. Donate your $10-20 thst the ticket costs... skip the prep and cooking and clean up and it is ALL profit. Heck have a pot luck that night to socialize and smile at all the work you did not do.

I don't think you should fund raise to pay the bills. If you can't sustain the congregation through regular donations I thi nk there are some choices.

Membership drive
.

Stewardship campaign to challenge members to consider raising their donation
.

Board discussion about what staff or services can be cut
.

Alternative sources of income: nursery school, rental for movies, joining with another congregation to share the building,
.
paying renters, things like Kumon, art classes,
.
Rent to the congregation for parties like children's birthdays or anniversary.
.
. Become an election place, they pay well
.

I believe the biggest source of income could be by teaming with another church and renting out the sanctuary to them, plus office space.....
.

If we go to our congregation for money it is specific. The roof needs doing or something.
.

If we can't pay our bills then something weekly has to change. It's either revenue or expenses

Using trust funds means the church is dying.  They will run out.  I am working with a church that has large trust funds and they grafted it - the money dispears in 10 years if they cut staff.  Guess what, they do not have enough people giving to cotinue so they are looking other options.  They are in a  large city so there are other options.

Our presbytery is wondering if we will allow 1/2 time staff 0 this is to force realism,

Churches (not all) complain about fundraising. When you ask what they want, they say Sunday Service. Soooooooo-----if all they want is Worship on Sunday, why are we paying for all these other things. Pulpit Supply should cut it with money left over.

Been there, done that and just stopped going to church. Until the congregation has the drive there isn't much point in keeping the church. We are in that scenario now. They are all complaing but no one wants to take the lead and few want to work. I say, people miss what they don't have. Let it go. If it's meant to be something else will come along. For those who do a lot of the fundraising etc it isn't very life giving.

We assume two major fundraisers in our budget besides regular givings. There's the Services Auction (this coming Saturday) and a bazaar that we host in the spring. Others may come up (e.g. we did do some fundraising around our 60th anniversary a few weeks back) but those two are the ones we budget for yearly. That's not new, though. Both go back a decade or more so are simply part of how we do business, not some new desperation measure. We also have rental revenues from our hall, both ongoing (a local non-profit group uses our hall a few mornings during the week) and occasional (weddings, etc.).

Mendalla

If we think being the church is just Sunday services we have already died. Jesus would weep that it is reduced to "temple attendance", listening and saying "aren't I good"... that his message and his followers have become what he was so against.

We have been having monthly meetings seeking input from the congregation.

If we reduce minsiters time we lose current minister

Given the building is for sale it's hard to rent out space to other groups-beyond AA and Alanon-who pay minimally

Yes the future will look different and we are exploring options and be open to the spirit

an actor in town offered to perform free-Shirley Valentine-for the church. We had 3 sold out performances.(In our large auditorm-no heat so we can't use it in winter) She's good-she had opened and toured Shirley across canada. We painted a wall for the set and rented sound and lights. We paid performance fees.

I think $7000 +was raised.

and most of it was exteranl fund raising.(our congregation would not fill one show). Even the actor does not go to our church, or any church, but offered as she had friends here.

Panentheism, did I read that right? That presbytery is discussing if presbytery will ALLOW half-time?

Our church building is constantly being used. We have a large building and happen to be located in an area of the city where there isn't much space for community groups to rent (the local schools seem to have priced themselves out of the the market, there are no community halls or rec centres nearby and the other churches are all much smaller than us). If you go in on almost any day of the week between the approximate hours of 9AM and 9PM and you're likely to find at least one external group using it - and on a weekday evening it can be up to 3 or 4. Add on the congregational groups, and the building is a hive of activity! Like Lastpointe suggested, we are also an election place - and the city regularly rents space to host public information meetings (the type where they talk about things like public transit plans, etc.). We also have a thrift shop which is open every Wednesday and one Saturday per month. These things are big money makers - but they also come at a cost. We have a custodian who works full time and a part time secretary who spends most of her time handling bookings (this is in addition to our full time office manager). 

We have one additional major fundraiser per year - a massive bazaar which is happening this weekend. Any other fundraisers are specific - for example we recently purchased a new communion table by asking people to donate to it.

somegal - in many ways your church seems similar to ours - many activities happening in a downtown area every day of the week. 

This is important to keep in mind. Our fundraising isn't just about keeping services going and staff paid, but also making sure there is enough in the budget to fund our community and social justice activities. If we went to a bare bones, Sundays only, lay-led model that ignored our UU commitments to justice in the broader community, we could easily get by without fundraising beyond regular givings but we would be the lesser for it.

Mendalla

Amen, Mendalla!

I note that the mention has been made about clergy wages. Are those who speak of clergy wages most aware of city situations and folks way up the pay scale or those paid above the minimum? I mean, most clergy wages are not great. Are secretaries and custodians paid wages? Organists? Choir directors? Are they also dispensible? 

In my opening post, I said clergy. In this particular church the Secretary, the MusicDirector, the Organist, The Janitor, and the Treasure(honorarium) receive wages. Some enough to receive pension some with not enough hours. Plus about 12 times a year the church pays for preaching because clergy is away.

Yes, this is a question of whether the cong is dying and just puting off the end.  There would discussion of what other UCC churches near by and should they join?  How about other mainline churches.  Of course, there will be exceptions like distance.  The question is this just putting off the end?  Presbytery has the power, rarelly used to do this.

Sg, i ticked off some folk recently when i questioned the celebration of dollars made from pie baking.

Guilt trips about volunteering for baking to cover operational costs

My guess is anywhere from 2 to 6 / hour as costs weren't made public, just volunteer hours and gross sales

That kind of operational fundraising drives me away. Do it for the foodbank or seniors care or a free meal for the community. I am there

Pinga, I think we run folks off with that method more than we care to know. Some folks cannot donate the money that baking pies costs the volunteers. Some folks cannot donate that time. Some folks have the money but no interest or skill in pie making. Someone with skill is without time or funds. We are not great at recognizing or using gifts. Some folks get upset about making sandwiches as a volunteer for a funeral and then having the family pay for catering. People who bake a pie buying a pie is odd. We serve ourselves and pat our own backs. We do that far too much in various ways. For me, you serve others not self. Bake pies with proceeds helping something else and watch the volunteers come out. Folks are mostly tired of self-serving models.

Yup. A bit ago the youth at our church were having a fundraiser to buy furniture for their room. I loved the idea if the fundraiser, but not going it for themselves

I wrote an anonymous letter to them stating if they changed who they were fundraising for, i would pay for 50 tickets @ $10 each which they were authorized to resell and give some away. They were ecstatic.

It helped them learn about doing for others, choosing a charity, making positive change in the community. They had a successful event.

I am pondering to offer up to 5 teams of 5 or more $100 to donate anywhere they choose, including church operating if they do a volunteer project in the community taking at least 3 hrs each.

I found that a narrative budget highlighted that they were not being the people they said they were or even thought they were. I would like to say that me being me, preaching not just "love others" but show it, feel it, mean it... be Jesus' arms and legs and have his heart and vision.... and my no nonsense and no excuses style  (no BS) is helpful... but that would be a stretch.

Pinga, I think the idea of funds given to be used to serve others or create more funds to serve others is awesome! It is sad when Oprah comes up with better things than the church does.

When I was a teen everyone in a youth oriented group was given some money.  In today's currency about $20.  The challenge was to protect or use it for one month, at which time it was to be returned with any 'interest' earned. 

Some put the money in a safe place, some bought an economy bag of some small item and resold them  I bought eggs, icing sugar and peppermint essence and made peppermint patties that I sold individually at school, at group meetings, around the neighborhood and to family.  When the month was up I had more money in my possesion than I had ever held before.

When I heard how much money was earned by the congregregation I used to attend at a fundraising event my mind started counting the costs.  Labor, ingredients, power were all paid paid by the baking women.  During the event more women volunteered to sell cakes, pies and cookies that our doctors recommend we only eat in moderation!  I politely declined to use grocery money for such things and didn't attend the event because I didn't want to spend money on those things..

Fundraising really needs to be carefully thought out. I love Pinga's ideas.

How would you support the youth group in getting furniture for their room? We just had the same problem- we got leftover paint  but had to buy some more, for which money was donated to us- to paint the youth room and got some used furniture, but also needed some money to buy some bean bag seats. There barely is a budget for the youth group.

Then, we would like to send the kids to youth events at Conference- and honestly,if we want youth involvement in the future, we need to consider sponsoring them- so the youth group needs money!

Idealy, the congregation fundraises for the youth group and the youth group fundraises for something outside of church. We tend to involve the group in fundraisers for the inn from the cold and other occaisions, but we also had the youth group put in 4 hours of yard work and three car washs in the general church fund auction- and it was great fun. We actually had more additional requests for carwashs than we could handle.

You know, there are lots of pockets ofmoney in most congregations. Folks who love youth programs, etc.  They want to see youth engaged in a program....and not one for the church itself.  The samples you gave about the car wash or auction are great.

Thoughts:

Suggest a matching program.  Ask people to match every $ the youth raise for outside of the church.

Reach out to one person, someone who you sense is wanting to see the church do more mission type work and has funds available , ask them if they would consider strategizing with you.   Tell them about what I did.  Ask them if they or someone else might be willing to do a matching program. ...ie give the youth funds for a program if they fundraise for something else.

In our congregation, the youth are known for the good work they do in our congregation. They fundraise both for themselves and for the church and they think outside the box. They've had booths at the annual bazaar where they sell handcrafted items. They cook dinner at presbytery meetings in our church. They have held multiple BBQs to raise funds for multiple projects (one of those projects was to purchase a BBQ for the congregation). There are lots of events that they want to participate in and some of the youth in the group would not be able to go if they had to pay for even a third of the cost (for example Rendez-Vous), so we as a congregation do our best to support them.

So, somegal, what i didn't hear was that any of those were doing mission.  I am sure they do.  My challenge is, I don't think youth should be fundraising for the youth or projects for themselves, including travel.

For me, youth should be fundraising for mission programs or service type actions.  Anything such as a bbq should be paid from the churchs internal resources

I agree, Pinga. I would go one step further, I do not think adults should be fundraising for themselves to do mission or service. I think the church should encourage and enable it.

You're right Pinga - I didn't list those things, but not because the youth don't do them. I only mentioned a small part of what they do. Their mission work hasn't really been in the form of fundraising as much as it has been about doing physical work. For example, they have done some work for Our Place - a United Church agency that works with homeless people in Victoria. Things they have done for this agency have included picking apples, preparing meals and collecting personal hygiene items.

If hospitals had to fundraise to run, how successfully would they be able to meet the needs of the community? But they have an alternative (and compulsory) funding source - taxes. (It's a pity the air force doesn't need to hold bake sales to buy its next fighter jet).  I offer that any voluntary funding for any organization will at some point be insufficient. And that's not because of the lack of worthiness of the cause.  It's just a natural human instinct to want to get more out of something than we put into it.  If people aren't giving enough, and the cause is worthy, alternate methods of funding need to be found.

Also, I'm not happy with Pinga's portrayal of the youth group just doing something "for themselves". Would that furniture (or whatever) not still be available even after the youth had moved on? Does it keep the organization going? More effort is needed to start an organization from scratch than to keep it going. To provide an organization to tap into rather than having to start one yourself is something valuable as well. And I count the spiritual health of youth as being equally as important as their physical health. Part of that spiritual health (some would call it psychological health) comes from being in community. Is it so wrong to view our youth as worthy of our support? 

I don't understand what you are saying here, SG. The adults are "the church", usually congregations have to come up with funds for all kinds of purposes. Are you talking about everybody should just tithe?

mrs. anteater, what I was saying is that missions, on behalf of the church, should IMO be a church expense and not someone's personal expense. The person embarking on a mission should not be tasked with doing the fundraising if funds need raised and are not in the church budget.

spiritbear, I think you missed my point.  I don't think the youth group should have to fundraise for operational items such as furniture for their room.  That should be done from the church operating costs from general givings.  Period. 

SG, yes, absolutely, i do not think fundraising should be done by adults either for operational.  it should come through givings.

When youth / adults were heading out of country, in my opinion, funds to pay their costs should have come from general expenses...as they were going as representatives of the church.  Fundraising should have been to do good work in the area or take things to the area.

Things like fundraising, which pull money from the community should be for missional items in my opinion.   In part, it is marketing. In part it is about use of volunteer resources.

The reality of many chuches is fundraising and givings are a way of life - for salaries and operating expenses.  While I totally agree that we should be raising money for M&S.....and speaking from our local pastoral charge - we meet our M&S which is 10 percent of our operating budget - thats are target - we exceed it often - we spend way more time fundraising that local mission.