Is there a difference for members /non-members?  The wedding thread also mentions funerals so i thought a separate thread would be good.

How many funerals does your church do each year?

A mine field here.  In our secular society the UCC gets called upon to do a lot of funerals - one Feb I did 14 and there  would be at least 30 a year.

The issue is many of these are those who were historically UCC but never come to church nor support it financially.  So the cong must decide if the minister is to be availabe to the community ( most difficult in one UCC towns) and so how do deal with the time spent.   If it takes 3 to five hours to do a funeral ( not counting follow up) then that would be 150 hours of time to be found, to take from the 40 hour week at least 3 hours.  So the simple solution is for the minister to get paid ( in my community it began at $150 and ended after 8 years at $250 - in our area of Ottawa it runs about $250 up) rather than taking time off.  The other problem is a funeral can happen on days off ( one year almost all the funerals were on days off) and that time is never found.

What I am saying is we have a hard time working out the implications for the church and the clergy - it can be a source of misunderstanding and confusion.

Then there is a question of how much time is spent in doing funerals for those inside and those outside.  In one community a minister got into trouble because he was doing over a 100 funerals a year and he said he was too busy.  The issue was most of these were not church members, thus the cong wondered about his busyness.

Some claim that there can be  no difference in price ( both funerals and weddings) for insiders and outsiders.  There is a custom of a family giving some money to   those involved.  Funeral homes now include that in the cost - just like the cost of flowers etc - organists and minister get some money and it depends on whether one is a rural or urban context how much it is.  The funeral home collects from non church members so the clergy etc do not have to ask....  there have been times that money did not come from the funeral home and thus no more funerals for them, except cong members.  It is the responsibity of the clergy to include this income in their income and be taxed on it.

Can you be more explicit? I might preside at 20-30 funeral services a year. 1 or 2 might be in the church. The rest are in the funeral home. What do you want to know?

Greetings!

Our funeral policy is such that there is no difference in fees for members, adherents, or persons not affiliated with our church in any way for those who approach our church to do a funeral.

Fees would be as follows:

$150 - suggested honorarium for minister

UCW set their own fees for a lunch if there is one.

$50 - caretaking fee.

If the family of the deceased does not or cannot give the honorarium to the minister our church pays for it.  We woudl also pay for the organist ($100) if they did not pay them.

We probably have between 10 and 15 funerals at our church over the last few years.

If another church desires to rent our building to hold a funeral for their church then they pay our regular rental rates.  This happens occasionally in our community when one of the smaller churches is having a funeral for someone that they think their church building cannot accommodate as our church is a little bit larger than some of the smaller ones.  It is not considered "our" funeral, but rather a rental of space.

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

 To the best of my knowledge, the only "fee" charged by our church is a fee for the UCW if they provide a luncheon. We do not charge for the use of the church, but probably 90% of the funerals I do are in the funeral home anyway. The funeral home generally takes care of honoraria for myself and the organist and includes it as part of the cost. It's always $150. I never discuss money or fees with a family.  When it's a simple interment at the cemetery with no actual funeral service, I usually tell the funeral home to leave it at the discretion of the family. For such services I've been paid anywhere from $0 to $150.

Just as an aside, when I served in Newfoundland from 94-97 I never got paid for funerals. It just wasn't part of the culture - at least not at that time.

Question:  Is the minister being paid, or the church?

If a minister is in full-time ministry at a congregation, then wouldnt' they be doing it as part of their responsibilities of being in call.

If so, then the revenue, would offset the cost incurred (salary)

If there are so many that it is an issue, then the amount of revenue might be able to drive a supply minister of funerals 

I'm confused here.

I would have thought the church would be paid. 

Pinga this is the problem - does the church gets paid for the use of their clergy?  That is a good idea, but then should salary increase?  Should time off increase?  Thus for in church funerals the cost tends to be for the organist and the clergy ( which I often split with the other staff) and for funeral homes the principle tends to be this is what the clergy does and thus is paid directly.  Now if it outreach how do we think that through - time off? or being paid? and the church gets the money if it is time off- the church is contracting the funeral home.

What has been the easiest to do is let the clergy get paid by the funeral home.. but your question is great.

I've never done that. The tradition is that the minister receives an honourarium in our community (currently $200 though a private individual who does funeral in our community charges $400).

No  As funerals are unpredictable, and always the choice of the family,  any thought of a revenue stream isnot realistic.  

I started this thread because I was curious-I had never considered the cost of community funerals on a congregation before.

If we do them without charge-yes that is a large portion of the ministerss time. If we charge for them do we use it as extra pay for ministers-in lieu of time off or do put it into church funds to offset hours spent.

Food for thought.

Our BOard has consistnetly refused to give any guidance on the "what is appropriate" question.  Same with teh UCW.  We do have a policy stating that the "normal" honorarium for the presider is $100.  (mind you I have gotten anything from 0-300)

I actually appreciate why the church and UCW don't want to set a rate, they see offering funeral support as part of their raison d'etre.  But when a family with no church connection is asking what to give the UCW as a thank-you for the lunch it makes it really difficult.

In many congregations the expectation is that honoraria for weddings and funerals are for the minister as an adjunct to salary.  One place I know of justified paying what they admitted was a slightly low housing allowance due to these honoraria.

FWIW, it is my opinion that weddings and funerals for non-affiliated families are every much a part of my ministry in a community as for affiliated familes.  THey are not extras.  They are not a waste of the "congregation's time".  They are ministry for and by the congregation.  And as such the congregation has no right to expect to be compensated for lost time.

Did you know that if you have a different policy for members and non members, that is technically in violation of the tax laws?

On an unrelated note, I'm not going to talk about fees.  I would say that this charge has been quite clear and consistent in their understanding that funerals for non-members are at my discretion, and not a requirement of the position.  If I have time, I do them, if not, I don't.  I am rarely asked, in any case.  The charge has also been good at shifting time, and offering me extra days off to make up for times when the load is particularly heavy.

At the UCC we rented the Church and the fellowship hall and I think the cost for both was around $200.  The minister fee was $175.   At the Lutheran Church there was no cost for the sanctuary or fellowship hall and the minister fee was the same.  The fee for the funeral luncheon was around $200 (for 50 people) for the UCC and also for the Lutheran Church.  The musician fees are $100 per musician.  That was the same at both Churches.  My parents were buried within a year of each other so the prices pretty much stayed the same.  My Dad 's funeral was in the United Church and my mom's was in the Lutheran Church.

Times change, and urban/rural customs are different. 

It's probably 20 years now since my brother died in Montreal, and my sisters and I had decisions to make.  We decided to bring his ashes to NB and bury them in the little country graveyard where our parents were buried, behind the church in the burg where my mother grew up.  None of us had lived in the area since we grew up and I was the only one living in the province - in Fredericton, 40 miles away. 

I asked my minister about a commital service, and he as a courtesy contacted the rural minister.  To our surprise they organized a full funeral service - two ministers, a small church choir with piano, a reception of sandwiches and sweets in the community hall afterwards.  I don't think price was ever mentioned, but we made a generous donation. 

That's how things used to be done in the country.

Pan? If I am loaned to a different department, there is a revenue stream generated to offset, recognizing that other staff may be required to backfill me. 

Of course, I am loaned to other areas,and even other companies on occassion, just as part of being good corporate citizens.

Now, let's apply the principle to a minister.

When a minister does a service, who are they representing -- themselves, the church/congregation they are affiliated with, or the wider church?

If the minister is performing a funeral service, I would presume it is part of their call responsbilities.  As such, then it would be part of the salary of the minister.

If the minister is underpaid, then, fix that. 

I dont' see that it should be considered freelancing.

Pan? If I am loaned to a different department, there is a revenue stream generated to offset, recognizing that other staff may be required to backfill me. 

Of course, I am loaned to other areas,and even other companies on occassion, just as part of being good corporate citizens.

Now, let's apply the principle to a minister.

When a minister does a service, who are they representing -- themselves, the church/congregation they are affiliated with, or the wider church?

If the minister is performing a funeral service, I would presume it is part of their call responsbilities.  As such, then it would be part of the salary of the minister.

If the minister is underpaid, then, fix that. 

I dont' see that it should be considered freelancing.

As far as I know my church has never had a funeral.

OK this confuses me.  How does your community mark a death among its membership?

My church is quite small (we have about 20 members), and has only had a very few funerals. They took place at local funeral homes, with my pastor officiating.

Funerals/memorials work the same as weddings. The minister is generally reserved for members (unless they and the Board agree they can do services for non-members, which does happen sometimes) and the lay chaplains do ceremonies for non-members. It's actually easier since there's no licensing involved. Chaplaincy fees are charged for the non-members along with hall rental if applicable (but a lot of the non-member services are in funeral chapels and the like). Members pay the rental, but not sure about the minister offhand. Our pianists are local musicians paid on a per service basis rather than on a salary so the family would have to provide their own music or negotiate with the pianists separately regardless of membership status.

Mendalla

Maybe it should be noted than anyone can officiate at a funeral, as I understand it.

Yes, that is what we've been told when we were without ministry personnel, crazyheart.

Hi Tabitha,

The Churches that I have served have never charged for funerals.

The funeral homes charge for funerals and many include a line for clergy honourarium.  As far as I am aware it is not an obligatory expense.  Some families choose to pay or not pay.  That doesn't impact on whether I will preside over the service or not.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Exactly, and we do have members who have officiated at funerals without actually being chaplains or ministers. One of them did it once and then decided to become a chaplain.

Mendalla

Our Sanctuary is generally only used for funerals of members and the service is offered for no fee.  An honourarium of $50 to sexton, $100 to organist, if used , and $2-300 for minster is suggested.  The UCW will cater a lunch for $10 a head which gives you tea, coffee, sandwiches and squares and cookies.  I think they add lemonade in the summer

I would say that we have about 20 - 30 members die each each and about half of them use the church for the service and the others just a funeral home chapel.  I think it really depends on how many people are expected, a very elderly member, with few surviviing friends won't want to put 50 people into a huge sanctuary.

the area funeral homes call our minister when they are looking for a UCC guy but he seldom does a funeral for a non member mainly because he finds it takes way too much time with the prep and the follow up.  But he does our members services in teh funeral parlours.

If the funeral home has written the cheque, then the estate and executor are legally obligated for the debt. If the family refuses to pay that expense beforehand, then there may be a conversation with the funeral director. Some funeral homes cover that expense, in any case, especially if the funeral is paid for by social services.

Your are correct in theory.  But and this is a real but, a lot of churches have not worked this out and it can be a touchy point with the cong which does not or has not looked at the issue of time.

The other problem is context.  In a small town where there were a lot of "UCC' who never came to church nor supported it, but had friends and family in the church, or had a memory of some how being related, there can be a lot of funerals when one is the only UCC minister.  All these funerals take place in the funeral home and as is pointed out becomes a charge they make and then pay the clergy.   This is true even when there are other UCC ministers in the area who also take funerals.  

In these cases the cong does not always see them as part of their out reach to the community and thus by default the clergy becomes a free lancer - not a good situation, though only a pragmatic one. In other words in many pastoral situations there is a lack of clarity about the role of non church members, but still connected funerals.

There is also a problem in urban areas where a minister gets to be known for doing good funerals and then getting asked by many funeral homes to do non church members who still want some  'religious' element ( even if it is only amazing grace or some dim remembered religious music  like in the garden) - you can get a lot of calls and there is a temptation to take them for the money.  I had friend who did this and when people read in the paper the number of funerals he did, it got him to trouble - we warned him this could happen but the extra money gave his family some great trips.  Now most of us limit ( in the urban situation) the number of outside funerals, and in rural area make arrangements with other UCC in the near by communities to share the load.

In a perfect world both marriages and weddings would be part of the salary and the payment would go to the church.  In my carreer only one church had this built in as part of the package -( didn't take the job because they were slow and I got Five Oaks) and I tried this at my last charge and they couldn't get their head around it - they like the tradition of me being a rep of the church and getting money from the funeral home ( or the couple).  Wish someone like you was there to help them think through the issue - I think if you did a survey of ministers not many of us have or have had congregations that thought this through in the way you suggest.

By the way in Urban situations there are now people attached to funeral homes that do lunches there, and in church funerals the UCW (  or as we did at TSA, a monthly group - ten of them- did lunches and people asked how much? and thus we had to set a fee because there was an expectattion  - when my mother died and was active in the church we paid the church for lunch, it only seemed right to do so and they did not ask, and that seems to be the custom for most.  It does help to have a fee worked out for it is helpful in such times.

In 2008 it was listed as a "suggested donation" on the funeral home bill  (hall rental, sanctuary rental, presiding minister, organist, custodian, caterinng.  The suggested donation was included in the amount of the final funeral bill.  Indeed we get one to pay the funeral bill from the date we get it and included in the bill is a little note that the funeral home has already paid these expenses.

In 2009 the amounts were listed as fees on the funeral home bill.  I was surprised when the hall and sanctuary "fee" were not included in the funeral bill (we got an estimate on the day we planned the funeral) I was told that only the UC has a "suggested donation" for the useage of the hall and sanctuary.   

The funeral home also has a large chapel and a fellowship room that can be used free of charge for funerals here.

From my understanding the ministers/pastors here get paid extra ($175) for each funeral.

So from my understanding of the bill the families do not get a choice but to pay the fee as it is included in the bill.  If we were to not pay that part of the bill the funeral home would go after the executers because the funeral home pays all the bills at the time of the funeral.  We sign a form (before the funeral) that authorized the funeral home to pay all the funeral expenses and in this form I agreed to be responsible for the debts of my mother's funeral.   My mom did the same thing with my dad's the year before.

That is correct. However, in Ontario, the funeral director has to review all the charges with the executor, so there should be no surprises. If the executor says "no"to a specific charge, then that becomes a point for discussion.

In Alberta the funeral home director has to review all the charges with the executor as well.

When I was told what the "suggested donation" for the sanctuary and hall were I was told that the funeral home chapel and the hall were free if we did not want to pay the "suggested donation".