Silk, lace, babies and open flames, in my opinion, do NOT belong together...  any time I've given baptismal candles out, they've been still in the box.  I'd almost bet that many of them are STILL in the box.

eeee. i can understand your feeling.

i almost get a 'butterfly' just thinking about it

Um... I've never seen that done. I've been at several UCCanada infant baptisms and not once seen this take place. Is this new? Where and when did this practice begin and, more importantly, why? If does sound too dangerous imho. 

Stephen and Jae, it seems to be more common all the time. I have seen it in 2 churches recently.

And RedBaron, I agree .

And Stephen, I got butterflies too.

What a strane sounding activity.  I think it would make more sense to invite the babies into healthy, safe lives.  This practise seems to invite them into danger. 

My vote syas Not Safe and Nor Acceptable.  If I was in that position I would immediately blow out the candle.

Mine were still in the box...

BTW I also was not wearing silk and lace... and nobody was strong enough to cradle me in their arms....adult baptisms lose some elements.  LOL

Awwww . . . you destroyed my mental picture of you in silk and lace, cradled in someone's arms, SG.

At our church the baptism candle is lit, and generally given to the parents, who very quickly blow it out when the little one grabs for it.  Or sometimes it is handed to the person not holding the child.

I shudder, or get butterflies, when there are lit candles of any kind around active, moving, bouncing children in the sanctuary.

Hi Crazyheart,

I have fewer problems with the candle than I do the baptismal gowns.

And, Leading worship in a sanctuary that was destroyed by fire a few years ago lit candles waving about just doesn't happen.

We use candles in liturgies.  Those candles are always fixed into a holder and that holder stays put.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Crazyheart,

There is often an awkward moment when the parents try to decide when they should blow out the candle.

On the subject of candles in church, I also dislike Christmas Eve services that have everyone holding a lit candle for Silent Night.

I was frightened of matches when I was a child, and dreaded the thought of being asked to light the candles in Junior Church.  (I think that's what you call it ... when all the Sunday School classes gather together.)

Our local Fire Marshall is part of our congregation, so we pretty much only have the candles that are sitting on the altar table now. We do still hand the lit candle to the couples holding the baby. I wonder why he hasn't commented about that one! Usually the parent not holding the child will take the candle in our congregation. It is still very awkward and potentially dangerous. 

We don't use lit baptismal candles in the liturgy (and I had a near experience of a gown going up in flames last year). However, we also have the children light the candles in worship using a proper candle lighter (wax taper and holder) from a pre-lit side candle.  They then extinguish the candle with the snuffer.

Hmmmm ....since a candle is a symbol ...... and we find the symbol an very meaningful part of the ceremony ... then perhaps we should find a way to have it there in a safe way.

Why not one of those really nice battery operated candles?

The symbology can be the same because it is all about the symbology of the light.

This would be a wonderfully updated and safe way to carry on a meaningful tradition.

Just a thought....

Hugs

Rita

Hi DKS,

A proper candle lighter is much better than giving a child a box of matches!

Part of my worry was always that I wouldn't be able to light a match properly.

Hi Rita,

At the hospital where I work, memorial services always use those battery operated candles. They are surprisingly effective.

It makes me feel a litte tense...will they drip wax on the baby or scorch themselves?  It's a bit disconcerting to be up front for some folks and we all get a bit fumbly when we're nervous. 

Most babies have two parents, and/or grandparents, and/or sponsors, and/or older syblings standing at the front during the baptism.   Since the days seem long gone when a dozen babies might be baptized in the same ceremony, it seems large groups stand in support of each little one.   The lighted candle carries a lot of symbolism.  I personally like the idea.  One person can hold the baby and another, or several others, can receive the candle, the certificate, the gift from the Sunday School, the book from the UCW.  

Beloved, I think you are the only person who has ever imagined me in silk and lace.... you are one twisted woman   LOL

That's where a pre-lit side candle works. I light it about 20 minutes before worship. We use the leftover wedding candles.

I, too, like the symbolism of the lit candle. I don't recall ever witnessing a baptism where there weren't at least two adults standing with the child, so handing the candle to the second adult makes sense to me. I'd also have the minister assure the person (perhaps ahead of time) that they can blow it out whenever they like.

I too like the lit candle and agree it should be given toa person who is not holding the baby.

Then we re-lit this candle at my kids first birthday!

Hmmm ... now you've got me wondering ... where ARE my kids candles, all these years later??     I do share your safety concerns, and usually at our church the lit candle is given to the parent/person not holding the child.

We do usually have a child process the Christ candle up the aisle each Sunday & place it in the holder on the chancel.  There is always an adult close by their side, and they are very intent on their mission - long hair being kept carefully out of the way!!

Rita, my church has used those battery operated candles.  They have worked really well for us. The children really enjoy holding them during Christmas Eve services.

It is funny that we all seem to presume that adults are smart- especially around children, I saw a candle handed to a 5 year old. The adults around seemed to think it was cute. I was horrified.

I remember years ago, the church that I was at, recieved a letter from Fire Department asking that there be no processing with open flames. I wonder if that is still in effect.

Sorry Crazyheart - you and I seem to think alike on a lot of matters, but I can't agree with you here.  I remember the pride in my grandson's face when he was permitted to hold a lighted candle at church when he was a preschooler.  There were only a few children, there were adults nearby, and I didn't preceive any great danger.  Yes, candles can burn.  I wouldn't recommend that they be left unattended, and that choir members with books and papers, or the elderly or handicapped be given battery operated fake candles.  But carefully supervised children and competent adults holding or passing the flame doesn't seem to me to be a great danger to life, limb, or property. 

seeler, this is a lesson for some folk (no names mentioned) who post in R&F, you and I disagree on somethings but we remain respectful and continue the conversation. Now that is intersting on this little innocuous thread, isnt it?

Hi seeler,

I remember Christmas Eve candlelight services at St. Anthony United Church, especially my first one.

I noticed a bustle of activity at the Church and went over to check it out.  They were getting ready for the Christmas Eve Service by mounting candlestands on the ends of the pews, on the window sills, along the communion rail and on the pulpit.  By the time I finished counting I noted 70 candles placed in 10 windows.  2000 candles mounted on stands on each end of half of the pews in the sanctuary.  Our regular candlestands amounting to 10 candles.  Our Christ Candle.  Another 20 candles on the communion rail plus five on the front of the pulpit.  For a staggering 2115 candles waiting to be lit.  That would be joined by 17 Candles held by Choir members and a candle for every parishioner who wanted one and we filled the sanctuary so that is another 350 candles.

I don't know of any Fire Marshall anywhere who would look at that and say, "Excellent idea."  A year in Seneca College's Fire Protection Technology course made me very, doubtful and I brought a fire extinguisher up from the basement and put it under the pulpit just to be on the safe-side.

The heat was turned way low to keep the candles from swooning.  Once all the candles were lit and the service began we actually shut the furnace off.  You can probably imagine how much heat 2482 candles throw off.  Enough to keep a largish sanctuary very warm on a December's night in Northern Newfoundland.

To the best of my knowledge no burns or dropped candles ever.

Still, no Fire Marshall worth the title is going to say, "What a good idea."

Open flame is something that needs to be respected and to their credit, the people of St. Anthony United Church who spend all afternoon setting the candles up take the time after the service to take the candles down, and ensure that the candles are well out immediately after the service.  Nobody leaves even one of those nearly 2500 candles smoldering anywhere.

It should also be noted that the candles held by parishioners are lit as they process in, extinguished and then re-lit as they recess out.  Handled carefully and respectfully fire is safe.

Grace and peace to you.

John

John - over done, over done.  Moderation in all things.  Whatever!   It was probably something they were used to doing and they probably took great care when the candles were lit. 

John, you made me remember Christmas Eve services at Siloam United in London, Ontario. The sanctuary is surrounded by windows that look into the Narthex. There are windows from the Narthex to the outside. The church is somewhat circular in style. They had several candelabras set up in the aisles. Each candelabra had maybe 6-10 candles on it. There would have been candles at the front of the church. I don't remember if we were holding candles too. My memory is of the candles, and the reflections of candles. It was magical.

I'm wondering if we are becoming too safety conscious, to the point of being silly. Of course we need to be mindful of fire. It can be very dangerous. Never-the-less, there are safe ways to incorporate it into our practices.

I have mixed feelings.

The symbolism of the baptism candle being lit is powerful. Yet, I know the fire that ravaged their building years prior was powerful also. So, mine were in the box and there was other symbolism to take its place.

In a different place, the candle may have been lit because I am competent with taking and holding a lit candle.

The best judge of their own competency with fire or their own children is often the parents. Yet, most say they were never asked "are you comfortable taking ahold of a lit candle?" or "will your other children be up front (they can ponder if that means standing or running)?" or "the little one may reach for the candle". The parents are often emotional, distracted, occupied...

When it came to my own bapstism, there was no baptism rehearsal, like there is for weddings. Is this the same with child baptisms? Do they know the parent without the child should take the candle or do they assume the person with the child does? Do we expect they know the ritual and the procedure?

Ok, all that said, I love a candlelight Christmas Eve service.

I have watched it enough to know that asking people to hold a candle in one hand and a hymnal (that requires two hands for most folks) in another and then stand up is about as awakward as being told to rub your belly and pat your head... and yet there are not many churches that burn down Chirstmas Eve and not many ER trips.

Being my first Christmas Eve service, I was scared. Sure, I will be the one in the pulpit when the church burns down or Mildred's over hairsprayed hair catches fire as Sam tries not to drop the hymnal and lights her up like a tinder dry Christmas tree.... and I could even picture Peter trying to help and because there was no vase of flowers in water handy slamming a potted in dirt poinsetta onto her head.....

So, the unlit candles were already passed out (as they came in with a drip guard)...we stood while the organ started Silent Night... a team of volunteers lit the candles they already had... the words were on an insert easily handled in one hand....  (they were told to extinguish before processing out and a number of large candles remained lit to provide exit lighting)

I like to see the parents, especially of the little ones, go to the front of the sanctuary with them for the children's time (or any other special occasion).  I like to see them sit with their children on the floor and listen to the story.  And if they are there they can shake their heads 'no' if a little child is offered a candle, or they can take it for their child, or let the child hold it for a moment and then take it, or hold their hand around the child's.  

Too cautious?   My grandparents lighted their homes with oil lamps, and we heated and cooked with a wood stove.  I doubt if I was much past school age when I would sometimes be asked to put a stick of wood in the stove - and by the time I was ten I would have known how to lay and start a fire (and to bank it for the night ).  Its only the recent generation of kids that are considered incompetent to be careful around fire. 

How many serious fires are started by candles being used in an occupied room?  How does this compare with fires started by the furnace, electrical service, arson, or carelessness when smoking or leaving a fire unattended?   (I'm not talking about a drop of hot wax falling on a little hand - kids get hurt every day - its called life).

a little hot wax never permanently hurt anyone...

and if the baby bursts into flames, maybe something else is the matter than just normal physics at play & domesticated primate psychology?

Inanna,

I can always rely on you to take a thread in an unexpected and zany turn.

I love baptisms.

At our church they are frequent, and part of the "normal"church service.

I can usually tell when one is about to happen - there is a group of "strangers", often not regular church attenders, grouped nervously outside the church.

The minister, child, parents ands god-parents (usually four god-parents) gather around the font -it's quite a crowd.

The ministers asks them for traditional responses - finally turning to the congregation and we promise to support the child as a congregation.

The child (usually still a baby) get's water on it's head and is baptised.

The parents are given a lit candle to keep as a reminder of the moment - with a request to light it briefly on each anniversary. Some parents choose to hand either the child or the candle to one of the god-parents - most manage to briefly hold both candle and baby, before the flame is soon extinguished.

The baby then has his/her footwear removed -is handed to the minister, who places the baby's feet in a tray of soil of his/her country -with the message to  respect our aboriginal ancestors.

Without exception, all the babies love this part -and usually smile at our minister.

Then the parents walk , with the baby, down the aisles -so that the baby can be introduced to it's congregation. Lots of smiles all round.

I get the name, address and birthday of the child -and add it to my congregation children's birthday list.

Every birthday, until they've completed High School, they are sent a birthday card on behalf of the congregation.

I was asked to perform this task -and I enjoy doing it.

(I often joke that it's my penance for not having given birth myself).

PP, we called that the Cradle Roll. I don't know how many churches still have them.

I was a Godmother for a child in a church that had a priest- an Orthadox or Ukranian Catholic. One of the GodParents had to be Catholic (a friend of the father). It was held as a separate service after church. I thought,"I'll follow the lead of the GodFather). because the Priest was very hard to understand. He did not speak much English.

The priest did the ritual. Gave candles to lightt the way of the child, did the water and oil thing. Then said, "Remove the shoes". We stood there. Noone said or did anything. Finally, I squeaked out, "Both of us".

Everyone burst out laughing. It was the baby's shoes he was referring to so he could put oil on them so that the baby could walk in God's way.

Isnt memory wonderful?

See, again this baby baptism imagery is beautiful with the dirt and oil.....but not so much so when you are older and have corns and hammer toes......

Beloved is now picturing me in silk and lace with bare feet and held by someone... she really is an odd duck... but she is sweet.

Technical point here  - wax melts at between 46-68 C - about the temperature I wash my dishes in. And probably cooler than hot coffee. The fire concerns are worth considering. The issues about excess are worth considering (one or a few candles are symbolic - after the 2449th candle, how much more symbolism does the 2500th add?). But I don't think we have to be overly concerned about "scorching". I've had hot wax drop on my hand several times without scorching it.

Trying to remember if we hand a lit candle now, or have them set on the commnion table.  I think it may depend on the number of children at the front, and if adults available.

We give a candle, unlit, still in the box.

We do do the candles at Christmas though.  And EVERY year I give the same reminder about being careful.  I even use the same line about "you may think I am talking to the children but I'm not" each year.  It is sort of a tradtiotion now :)

As my granddaughter says, "Duh???"

Geez, I dunno Crazyheart, if I ever see you walk in the door of our church with a baby to baptise I'll whisper in our minister's ear, "make sure you tell the Canuck to remove the baby's shoes -and not hers. They're funny folks over there......."

We catch 'em when they're still babies in Oz - by the time they can grow corns on their feet they've usually become athiests.

(SG, we often think alike - maybe because we've both got hammer toes?)

PP-the feet in the dirt part is new to me-and I expect my fellow canadians.

I like it tho.

flustered multiple post

that same thing

PilgrimsProgress,

You believe we think alike because we both have hammer toes?

I prefer to think it is because a Syndey shiela and I were an item once... and (oh dear, I almost typed that she rubbed off on me, but thought better of it)

Much better to be about romance or sexual prowess than deformed toes....  LOL

(Can you give me that, even if it is an illusion and all about the toes?)

SG,

You're an incorrigible flirt!

(Dear reader - to quote Jane Austin -  this "Syndey shiela" was not I.)

SG, are we making a movie? If so,I'd like to think it's a re-run of Mrs. Robinson - but I'm thinking more Harold and Maude........)

I've never seen a candle used in a Baptist baptism. I suppose it would work well.

The person holding the candle is put right under the water --snuff-- the candle goes out. Easy.

ROFL

the imagery might be problematic though....

PilgrimsProgress,

Guilty as charged! No sense pleading innocent, my own wife would turn state's evidence.

Readers, the Sydney sheila was not PilgrimsProgress, it was a different woman prior to meeting my wife,  but I do adore PilgrimsProgress.

As far as the movie, The Graduate would work or Class (Jacqueline Bisset was a crush of mine) or Book of Love (my wife loves Simon Baker).... But I gotta say, Ruth Gordon was the bomb! (Did you mention that movie because I am odd or because you cuss?, I am trying to figure out if it is because I am a Harold type or you are a Maude type)

MCJae,  The imagery of the dunk with the candle was priceless.

I mention that movie, because I'm now sadly at an age when  the idea of sex has become a giggle (bit like in my pre-teens).

My mother got herself a new man when she was 79 - I think she used up all the good genes...............

Not to worry, there are compensations - I can get orgasmic about yummy food these days..............

(I'm off to Wollongong for a few days -as my eldest step-daughter has just turned fifty -so I'll be up for a fun time with good food and wine and delighting in the grandkids' company.

Which brings me back (after going walkabout) to the topic of precious new life and celebration -which, incidentally, can happen at any age.......)