GO_3838,
For me, it would depend on the church ands its condition and prognosis.
In our home area floating the idea that a youth minister or guitar would save it is ridiculous. There are few youth in town and they are not interested in church or are already affiliated with the one other church. Grasping at quack medicine is what some do confronted with death. It might make folks like us leave seeing the board as delusional and wasting time, money and effort. It could be seen even as cruel to build hopes when it is terminal. Their only real options is to be "home" for the few elderly folks left or close now, pallative care or euthanasia. I can accompany people towards death. I understand wanting control and to die with dignity.

I am all for realism.

If there are young folks or things to revitalize, by all means, I would want them done. Refusal in that case might be a reason to leave. It is giving up whole there is hope.

Death because you just are a terminal case is nothing to be ashamed of. You do pallative care and make the last days the best they can be. You spend what time you can together, you greive and you comfort each other....

Honestly, i am wondering why it is the official board that would be voting on this? I think it should be a congregational meeting that decides the option.

The reality is this:

If a congration is so limited by funds, funding and an inadequate way to raise funds to support infrastructure maintenance and staff support, then the actual physical building and paid staff will end. 

It does not mean that the community of care, or the network of support(s) will stop - it simply means a shift in how care is delivered, and this kind of care is reflelected in the first couple of centuries of Christianity - rather an underground approach to caring, but caring for others nonetheless.

The issues of shrinking congregation funding, the desire to be cared for and to turn to congregation leaders  is blurred, because so many social services have been cut back as well adds to people returning to or to or turning to members and leaders of congregations.  I understand the difficulty in this situation:

With a calling to ministry, those who are members of your community (congregation), may call on ministers at all times of day and night, and ministers are human as well... guilt, availability, family demands affect both ministers and congregation members

How difficult is it for a minister to choose between a crisis at home and that of a congretation member happening at the same time?  After all, we are only human.... but remember the call; to help others - and place this above all else, as parables in the NT tell over and over.  I am certain it can be very tearing at times.

If a physical location dies beacuase of funding, it does not mean that the spirit of Christianity and caring for others dies - nor does it mean that the the community dies.  Yes, it is sad that the the church and property may be sold off - but that is just manmade - construction.

A church, a concregation of people who join together in common belief and support, can congregateand share in communion anywhere,

The greater issue, which is also very valid, is how to pay educated,dedicated, experienced ministers who are losing jobs and benfits because of declining membership and the inability to repair infrastructure and employ staff to run a church.

The history of how the UCCan evolved meant that there is a great deal of property, since Methodist, Congregationalist and Presbyterian churches united:  and so a plethora of of UCCan churches exist within a few blocks - throughout Canada - and that also means a history of dedicated congregations, but also a bizarre thinning of congrgational attendance.  If ther are four UCCan churches within twenty minutes of each other, sell off three - and everyone attend within faith and commitment the one remaining church, chosen for its location and perhaps, if logic reigns, its best infrastructure.  However, that is not the case, because arguments are made that this is my family's third generation in this church, and to go to that church is not an option...we want a full time minister but we cannot afford it....but we do not like having a half-time-minister and we also have issues of what we pay lay persons...and then suddenly we have infrastructure isses and our roof is leaking and our boiler ist too old, cannot be fixed, but we will not apply for a grant from the OLG (fair enough - but how many members of your congrgeations buy lottery tix?  Seriously).

So it does become clear:  If you want save certain sacred spaces:  sell off a number of churches (and the land) where there are clusters  of UCCan churches.  Create a system where people who might require rides because of aging or illness issues and build a large, supportive community in one large community:  nothing can be wrong with bringing more people together and building a larger community based on a common understanding in faith.

Use the proceeds of sales in these clusters of UCCan churches to support the new, merged congregation.  Build community outreach initiatives, take care of the infrastructure needs of one building - rent it out to other wider community members (e.g. karate classes, after school tutoring initiatives, daycare, eldercare, etc) generate income to make paying for staff and care for infrastructure not so reliant on weekly donations.

I do understand that people will be sad to lose some buildings, but  being welcomed with open arms, like minds and the ability to support and be be supported in troubling times, and to celebrate in times of joy, the loss of two or more financially struggling congregations, who combine, focus and join in faith, can do more in one physical location than spread out three, four or more within a thirty minute drive, where each is struggling and cannot make a difference: what makes more sense? 

It just seems to me be to be natural:  as a person who has studied historical Jesus very seriously; the location is not as important as the community and the spirit of care.  If, so graced, to have a building where a large group can come together, all the better.  If not, then the shared effort is scattered; less people to do less good works, simply because of time constraints, less people to work together which means fewer people have to take on so much more work, often as volunteers.

I do understand that these are very difficult decisions, most often because of emotional issues.But I do believe there can be good resolutions, if presented with caring, compassionate and logical presentations. 

If the church buildings go, people don't have to stop being followers of Christ. It helps to have friends with things in common and a place to meet to discuss how to intentionally live out one's faith. Coming to church rather late in life though- one thing I don't understand is the insular effect church can have, the "cliquey" effect. For example, to have fellowship, why not just make friends? To have communion-take a homeless person for lunch. Meet up with a few tax collectors and prostitutes and disabled folks at a pub. Discuss how to make the world a nicer place, join efforts in local communities- church or not- that are doing that. You don't need to lose faith because you've lost a building.

The "Building" is not the church or heart of the Congregation.

The People are the heart, the congregation is the "Church".

The Church can exist without a building.  People can meet in one anothers homes. Each taking turns to host.  I know, people are use to church being a building which they go to every Sunday.  Yes it is nice to have that place.  But they are not defined by it. Gathering in a park among nature, (the Druid in me peeking through there) or some other place is just as valid.

I wouldn't leave a church unless there was no other option, unless they disbanded and decided to each go their own way as it were.

*Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace*

MaDiva    ~ ~

aka: Tao

aka: Wolfie

I agree with Kimmio. 

I am also perplexed that the board is voting on this and not the congregation. While it is the board's job to make decisions on behalf of the congregation, something this big should be left up to the entirety of the membership.

That said, it seems that there are several options which have not been considered - for example meeting elsewhere or amalgamating with another congregation.

I hope that people will understand that emotion can sometimes trump rational decisions - logic does not always prevail in decisions about shutting down an economically draining property; but good things can happening by joining with a neighbour church - be wary of the cliques, but overall, in times of crisis and celebration, cliques recede.

what happened there? I just quoted your other comment before you edited it, redhead.

If the church was fullfilling my needs I would stay in it til it ran out of money. If it was not I would jump ship

no Kimmio, I only tried to fix typos - no editing of content. seroiusly.

I never changed the conten or context of what I wrote - only misspellings and self- graammar a spelling , and typos.

what I type and posts, at times , appears different when posted - my typing skills are not so great  and my dragon software does not work here.  As I have problems with typing, so when I see errors posted in typing, I am going to correct them through editing function; they will be technical changes; not content or context changes. 

Kimmio does the same thing Redhead... I will read a post in a thread from Kimmio and then a second later it tells me there's a new post and it's still Kimmio's... lololol...

Don't worry about it, I am guilty of the same thing, I type it, it looks right and makes sense to me when I try to proof read it.  But then when I see it in the thread I'm like... ACK!!! I've lost words or letters or it didn't space out the paragraphs. LMAO

So I go in and try to fix things and then realize sometimes I could say something better, or use less words. So I think I have you both beat on that score.

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

MaDiva

aka: Tao

aka: Wolfie

I do the same thing. Sometimes, though, in the process, I have actually changed my mind about my last point.

Smiles @ Kimmio

(>-.-)> *Peace* ~ Beyond ~ *Peace* <(-.-<)

MaDiva

aka: Tao

aka: Wolfie

Changed my mind, realized it came out wrong, it isn't a complete thought yet, or realized I had a knee jerk reaction that I don't want to put out there- so I try correct myself before everyone reads it. I need to take my time and use preview.

Smiles back. These new posts are from me too :) when fixing typos, I have realized at times, that not only was my grammar or spelling wrong but what I say might be wrong- it occurs to me I am being overly emotional and have spoken too soon and not really listened to the other points of view, or what I said could taken the wrong way because it's not thoroughly explained. It's easy when you feel really strongly about something to get into defensive mode, which becomes arguing for the sake of arguing- but takes discipline to slow down and think it through first, I've found. There are often better ways to make a point so noone is insulted or confused. And sometimes there's nothing to be changed, but more to be added to the same thought. What I let stand is what I want to say.

I edited the last post 3 times. Lol.

I understand we have the same ideas Kimmio.

I can only edit by posting, reading and then using edit function - not efficient, but that is my option here :)

Sorry if I offended you.

To answer the question- it depends if the congregation is already dead. Which means to me that they don't strive for new life/ change, don't allow new things to happen.

If the congregation continues to exist depends also on why they existed in the first place- was it a fellowship/ social club of people of mostly the same generation, who cared about themselves but without any significant outreach and very little faith formation events, I think chances are great nobody from outside will be interested in joining. If there are no kids now and hardly anybody under 65, new ministry staff is not going to make a difference and it is unfair to put those expectations on them.

I don't understand.  Maybe it is my age.  But I don't understand why so many in the UCC seem hell-bent to close churches. 

/
Thinking now of my home church. It has a congregation of approx. 200 each week (many more on the roles). It is active in the community and known for its social outreach. It is the largest contributor to M&S in the presbytery. It occupies an old building. Yet, there is a sense that there is strong pressure to close the church - most likely to amalgamate with another UCC that is located nearby. (I've never heard that they want to amalgamate with us - although they would be glad to have us join them.) Their building is not as old as ours, but it is still inefficient. And it is neither wheelchair (or walker) accessible, nor do some of the members of our congregation feel welcome and accepted as they are.

/
There is room for change, for vision, for finding new ways to be 'the church' and we are continually exploring them; but talk of closing might simply be a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Back to the original question.   If my church choose to close, would I leave my church?

/
I don't see that I would have much choice. If my church ceased to exist I would have to leave.

/
If it amalgamated with another - I would try out the newly formed church. If that didn't work for me, I would try to find another UCC that I felt comfortable in - where I felt I could 'belong' and be of service. If that didn't work for me, I would probably look for another denomination - probably check out the UU.

/
If my church rented a building in the area, rather than carry on in its present location, I would continue to attend - as long as it remained 'my church' (ie continued its outreach, sought to be affirming, continued with Bible study, discussion, worship).

/
If my church broke up into little cells that met in homes, I'm afraid that I might be one who would fall through the cracks. You don't just walk into someone's home and indicate that you are there to join them for worship - as you do in a church. I can imagine some of the people might find this satisfactory - getting together with like-minded people (probably all near the same age, education, income level) - but I really don't see myself in one of these cliques. (ie for several years now I have heard people mention a group called 'The Common Cup' that meets in people's homes for study, discussion, table fellowship, etc. I have hinted about joining but never been invited. I get the impression that they are happy with their group as it is.)

/
If my church closed, I would probably try to live my life as a Christian showing love and care to my neighbours (the ones I know in this increasingly isolated world), and trying to keep in touch through the internet. While I am able I would probably try to find some other place to volunteer my one morning a week that I now devote to work with those who come to our church in need. As I grow older and less able to get out, I think I would be quite isolated without my church community.

/
So I pray and work that my church doesn't close.

Maybe it's my lack of experience and grounding...probably is. But I don't see it so much as being hell bent on closing churches as much as an eagerness to walk in faith and get to the work that lies beyond them instead of the church being so focused on itself. I volunteer for a very worthwhile outreach project- if the church I attend ever closes, I hope we could keep it going somewhere else. If the commitment to the intent of the project is there- it will continue in a different building/ format. I think about Jesus telling a follower that he has to be willing to give up everything. If we cling to what we're used to just because we're used to it, we can end up stuck.

Also, with the exception of a couple of things, on a day to day basis I honestly feel I do a better job for the community, when I am being myself, helping spontaneously and intentionally outside the church than inside it. And this is just one person's pov, but I often feel stifled by some of the polity and ritual- like a total misfit- but I give my time to things to keep the church going out of respect for the elders, and because it's given me room to grow and learn about the faith more freely than I could have with many other denominations- but I hope at some point it breaks out of what I feel in many ways is a cocoon, transformed into a butterfly.

Hi GO_3838

I would need to consider a number of factors.

First would be has the congregation just quit, have they thrown in the towel or are they simply overwhelmed?  There is much more hope in the overwhelmed than those who give-up.

If they are overwhelmed there may still be something that can be salvaged.  If they have quit it is simply a matter of dividing up resources and re-allocating them where they can be of use.

I would stay with a congregation even if they believed they were fighting a losing battle.  I would only stay with a congregation that has quit as long as it took me to gut it and send the resources elsewhere.  I would not hang around for the agony of a long protracted death filled with whining and complaining.

Grace and peace to you.

John

For me when I become part of a local church I feel that I have become part of a family.

I put down roots ..... they invest relationship in me and I in them.

I am very much a family person and I find it very hard to give up on family even when things are not going well.   To me that is when family needs to stick together.

Now I do understand that there are times families break up and there are complex issues to consider. 

Just my thoughts.......

Rita

seeler, 200 is a crowd. The churches I am most familiar with would not hold 200 people. I am more experienced seeing churches with less than 50 people and sometimes half a dozen. I am not "hell bent" on closure. I simply realize that if my own parents were in a 5,000 sq ft house they could not afford the bills on, that I would say, "downsize". It would be sad if it had been the place they inherited from their own parents or the place they made all their memories... It would be very sad. It would also be the only real practical solution if they were not open to sharing the house with others or couldn't find anyone else to move in.

I was speaking of my home church.  This afternoon I attended an anniversary service in a little church out of town.  I began my lay preaching there 20+ years ago.  It's been a struggle to keep it going - presently with a part time minister (I believe that she has another job connected with the university).  The sanctuary was full - somebody would have had to scrunch over to have anybody join them in a pew.    For the last 15 years or so, I've wondered if or how it would survive.  The people doing the work, do it willingly - and yes, they contribute to presbytery and M&S.    How much longer?   As long as they are able and willing; as long as they feel a need meet and worship and serve in their rural community. 

I would need to gauge the situation.

If serious, feasible, concerted efforts were being made to revitalize it, I would stay (my fellowship is somewhat in this state, to be honest). Even if the efforts failed, at least they would generate some life and energy.

If it was clear that most were favouring keeping it on life support without really trying to heal or revitalize it, I would be looking at my options. I can't see how you could sustain any kind of real energy among the remaining members if there is no greater goal to shoot for than how to wind down the congregation as an entity.

Given, as I discussed in another thread, the nature of UU'ism, the alternative would likely be joining a UCCan congregation that was fairly liberal/progressive and use the UU Church of the Larger Fellowship (an online UU congregation) to keep in touch with my UU side. However, there are enough UUs and ex-UUS that we might well be able to get something new going, albeit on a smaller scale, if worse came to worst.

Mendalla

Hi "seeler"

This takes a tangent, but I continue to wonder why, in light of the gospel, we were so eager to build churches? Where would the practice be grounded in the authority of scripture? I ask this in light of:

Can it be that our buildings have become idols, which demand more of us than they give in return?

George

George - I'm not talking about new church development.  I think that we would have to look long and hard at any proposal for a new church.  I'm just wondering if we aren't  a bit negative in our apparent eagerness to close existing churches - especially those that have a mission to fulfil and that have a core group who are willing and able to keep them open.

For me, I come from a culture that lost "The Temple" not once, but twice, and continued on. So, perhaps, I have no fear of faith going on... Where there was a shul/synagogue/temple they were the town hall, school, social centre, social service centre... There were far more places I lived without one than with. They always came with a commute in western Pa. and I watched many of those that existed close. They would get to a point where there were not enough Jewish males left in an old coal mining town to form a minyan (the 10-men quorum required for prayer services at an Orthodox synagogue). It was perhaps simple, below a certain number and that is it. Most times, when they closed the building it was donated to become affordable housing or something that gave back to the community. Perhaps that is why I do not have such a feeling about buildings or that it is the building that is the glue that binds people. I certainly do think God is hold up in there, back behind the dorsal cloth.

seeler, I don;t know of anyone who would never rush to close a vital church.

Read Aarons message, the Wondercafe "church" is being closed next year. :(

As long as it remains active, I plan on sticking it out to the end.

yes, waterfall. It gives people time to make contacts, form other social media connections, to continue on albeit different. Or not.

I haven't found the message yet - but several threads make mention of it.  Gosh, I will miss the cafe.  It's been an important part of my life since I joined a few months after it opened.  

Me too - for it is a life-giving ministry.

I'm going to echo a lot of what's been said here. It would depend a lot on the community, what I'm able to put into it, and yes - what I'm getting out of it, and what we're accomplishing together as community, in community. If it's strictly a financial thing, but otherwise there is vibrant spirituality going on, and important relationships being established, I would 'go down with the ship', knowing I had a spiritual family to support, and that I would want their support through such a difficult time in return.

If the reason it's dying is it's already spiritually dead - those relationships haven't been built, the experiences we share (both offering and receiving) are not so meaningful, learning and growing together in spirit and in community isn't happening, my absence wouldn't be missed and I myself would miss a limited number of people/experiences ... I would probably seek a new spiritual home.

Thanks, everyone, for your input.

I'll be curious to see what that church decides.

I think the official board was going to vote on their course of action, and then recommend that to the congregation, and then they in turn vote on their destiny.

And yet, I can't help wondering if this decision is meant to be some kind of "King Solomon bluff"; that really the official board just wants to suggest something drastic in the hopes of spurring the congregation into an active fight against their demise.

There's a lot to be said for the King Solomon bluff achieving results.

(And I wish the closing of the Wondercafe were a King Solomon bluff.)

Who would've guessed this would be such a prophetic topic???

If the people in my church voted to let the end come, rather than try anything to save it, I would probably stay til the end . . . and then find another place to go.

The key here for me is the people.  And if this is what the majority of people in my church came to I would stay and be there with them til the end.

I could actually possibly see this as happening in my church someday.  In our case I would see it that those who were still there had no more fight left in them . . . and so would prefer to die an honorable death, knowing when the time has come to end.