It's a good question seeler - I look forward to learning more from the clergy replies. 

I will be interested in the comments as well.

I would  ask her,but  I think it is improper for me  to decide how the minister responds or acts. They can accept or refuse the invitation.  They will be relaxed and enjoy it or they will be "on the job" Those are chooses I can not determine. I can express my desire for them to attend and relax, but ultimately I have to accept that they may see me as both an employer (since as a membr of the congregation I may end up having authority over them) and as a person to minister to. (Which may or maynot preclude being a friend, and so may require that they remain "on the job" at all times in my presence in order to maintain borders that they see as neccessary for both mine and their protection.)

OK. I'll be the first clergy to bite. Let me point out, though, that you've created a false dichotomy by asking whether it would be work or whether I'd enjoy it. It's possible for something to be both work and enjoyable.

Now, let's take the questions one by one.

Yes. No matter who you are (even if I consider you a friend as well as a parishioner) then while I'm there I have to be aware that I'm the pastor and I have to act accordingly, and I also have to be aware that I will be judged as a pastor on how I act and interact.

Honestly - I'm an introvert. I'd rather not, although it wouldn't be impossible for me to enjoy it. I would have to take some time to decompress after it was over though.

Wouldn't really matter one way or the other. Personally, I'd probably lean on the "prefer not to be" side.

Also contextual. If you're the Chair of the Council or the Chair of M&P or the Chair of Worship - probably. If you're the person who shows up every 9 weeks without fail and never gets involved in anything I'd likely pass. Also, if you wanted my presence enough to have given me some advance invitation I'd be more likely to say yes than if you come to me after church and say "Oh. Reverend Davis. I've been planning this Christmas party this afternoon. It's in a couple of hours and you know you're welcome." Then I'll probably pass.

Again, I'm an introvert. All things being equal, I prefer being left out than having to face the prospect of making endless small talk at a social event. I'd be thanking you for not inviting me.

Note to all: I've heard of studies that suggest that the majority of pastors are introverts. I for example almost invariably have to go home from church and crash most of Sunday afternoon just to recover from endlessly having to speak to well over 100 people on Sunday morning. Not that I don't like speaking to them - but it exhausts me.

I think it depends on the relationship already established between the minister and the congregation.....

I've found that ministers have a special way of being open and friendly - yet maintaining a  role boundary. (Knowing that there may come a time when you need both spiritual and personal support.)

Ministers often have a big demand on their time and energy -so I'd be personally inclined to just invite them to church social events....and let them know that I understand how precious their time is -and thus it's okay to decline.....

Hi seeler,

Yes.  It is socially acceptable to invite clergy members to your home and you may offer them a variety of goodies and beverages.  If you are inviting Jewish and Muslim clergy it is considered to be in poor taste to offer them pork products.  Imams should not be offered anything alcoholic.  If you invite Roman Catholic or Anglican clergy in do not consecrate the wine or they are obligated to make sure there are no left overs.

If I am their pastor then my visit is pastoral, even if all I am offering is my presence.  I don't feel the need to bless your tree or pray over wonky light-strings or behave in a manner that is out of keeping with the occasion.  I'm still a minister when I take the collar off.  Never off-duty more under-cover.

Would I count it as a pastoral visit and mark it as time served?  Depends.  Why am I getting the invite?  Do we have a relationship that is not Church based?  When I am visiting family it is a family visit because I am invited as a member of the family.  When I am at congregant X's house it is likely that I got the invite because I am their minister.

Just to second Rev. Steven Davis.  Some of us enjoy our vocation and the various aspects associated with it.

I'm an introvert who enjoys quiet evenings at home.  I would not feel snubbed to not be invited.  The whole, we had a party and didn't invite you jab fails to touch me and if you try it instead of a look of pain you will most likely see a look of relief flit across my face.

That said, I would not be insulted to be invited.

That depends on how strongly you twist my arm to get me there.  If you invite me on a weeknight when I might possibly be at a Church meeting for some such thing then my family doesn't miss out on time with me.  If it is during my time off when I want to be spending time with my family then I am more inclined to say no thank-you.

If you tell me that I am expected to come then you are attempting to obligate me.  If it is actually something optional then I am not obligated.

If I don't attend an optional event and you approach me first to tell me how much fun you had and how disappointed you were that I didn't attend then I know next year that there is an unstated obligation and claims that it is optional are not genuine.

If I don't attend I might ask you how the evening went because I care about you enjoying your event.

No.  As above I would probably feel relieved.  I have no problem with members of the congregation getting together socially, in fact, I don't think it happens enough.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I will throw into the mix - wedding receptions. If you went to every reception of every wedding you officiated at, you would run out of prayers. lol

I concur that it would be a "duty call" and part of your ministers work week.  That said I made a "duty call" to parishoners the other night and had a wonderful time (it sure didn't feel like work).  So by all means invite your minister, realize that it is work but that some aspects of ministry work is enjoyable and uplifting.  Social gatherings like these can be a positive offsetting to the more stress filled and intense work we do.

I'm remebering a "pastoral call" my minister made to me once. He had scduled a visit to us in the spring (he did regular visits-2 a year-to those who babies had been baptised). We called and asked him to come in jeans with a hammer. My horse had torn some 2x4 framing off the porch where she was boarded.

We had a lovely visit and repaired the porch.

Of course it was work time for him, but it was an useful Sat. afternoon gathering!

double post

Most people in congregations, United Church or otherwise, have a difficult time seperating a person from the role of minister/pastor.  Lawyers and Doctors have for ages complained about being asked questions of their profession during social gatherings. Some, have even billed for questions asked and answers given. That raises a lot of issues.

A clergyperson may indeed enjoy the vocational call and indeed enjoy the presence of others around a tree, at the lake, beside a pool in the summer with a cool drink.  However, that person needs to be aware that often they are being measured and judged by the very people who have befriended them.  It is more often than not, that the person has a meal with the minister and has, consciously or otherwise, an issue to discuss.  Clergy don't often bill for that time, yet it is work time.

tonight, my spouse and I are attending a dinner at a congregants house. Chair of Trustees, and chair of M & P plus spouses.  the church is going through a time of discernment with the EDGE people of the national church.  Ya think this might have a work portion to it? No kidding.  But I know for sure, it'll be a good meal.

all the best :)

A hypothetical situation - the minister's brother is going to be on Jeoprady tonight.  The minister doesn't get that channel on her TV.  So I invite her over to watch TV.  I set out some snacks, a glass of wine.  After the show my husband and daughter suggest a game of cards to round out the evening.   Sorry, I just don't see how that can be considered work.

May I suggest - respectfully - that you don't see it because you're not a minister. I really don't care if I'm watching Jeopardy, having snacks and wine and playing cards. I'm fundamentally there because I'm your minister. And because I'm your minister, even though I'm watching Jeopardy, having snacks and wine and playing cards, I'm working. To some extent, I'm playing a role. The most social and seemingly relaxed occasion can hurt a pastoral relationship if I slip up and say or do the wrong thing. Whether you see it or not is irrelevant.

It's kinda like being a Mayor (well not currently Toronto) or something in some ways, isn't it?

I agree that a minister is sort of always "on".

I am good friends with our minister. But I recognise that it isn't an ordinary friendship

He is my minister.

I listen to his advice
.

We golf together and he and his wife ,who is also a friend ,come for weekends to our farm.

But I know that he could never be totally relaxed because in the back ground we have this other relationship of minister/member

Yes. lastpointe and I think you will see that ministers, in a lot of cases, have close friends either with other clergy or outside the church all together.

Hi seeler,

Sorry, I don't see spending an evening with hypercitical parishioners pleasure.

When is your minister not your minister?  How many members of your congregation could come to your place for a visit, relax and enjoy themselves and not have to have M&P schedule a meeting to discuss something they may have done while at your place?

So even if I don't offend you by what I do while at your place, there could still be a member of the congregation who is offended by what I do while at your place.

You have no problem offering your minister a glass of wine.  What if another member of the congregation does?  

That is one small difference.

I have had to answer to complaints through various congregational M&P committees for the following:

1)  Did not wear clerical collar to a pastoral vist.  The complaint did not come from the family I visited.

2)  Did not attend a birthday party for a congregational member while on my day off and to which I had not been specifically invited.  The complaint did not come from the individual having the birthday.

3)  Did not attend a social gathering of the choir to which I did not belong.

None of these complaints represented a conflict and discussion in the proper place resolved all of these problems.  Still, if a complaint is going to go to M&P about me not attending a social function then it clearly represents an understanding that some part of my job (the work I am doing) is to be sociable.

If it wasn't work related it wouldn't be a criticism of my ministry.

Grace and peace to you.

John

That complaint about not wearing a collar is funny. How up tight some people can be! Probably why people truly hate being on the M&P committee

Because we were friends, I asked my minister to officiate at the burial of my parents ashes after they had died. We were burying the in the family plot here in Toronto though they resided in London.

When we met at the cemetery the first time I was so surprised to see Hugh in a collar and black "shirt" or whatever the term is. I had expected an ordinary shirt and tie.

I expected that because he was doing me, a friend, a favour. Of course in actuality he was doing a parishioner a favour and a burial is one of those serious sacramental type things.

It was kind of a learning point for me that he is always my minister first

And a truly beloved one

Hi lastpointe,

Eventually.  At the time it was not being played for laughs.  Since the M&P came unannounced to the Manse to bring that concern to me (not cricket) I excused myself for a minute and went and dragged down all of my clergy shirts.  I laid them out on the couch  and then asked the M&P committee to tell me which one was ordained.

They looked puzzled.  So I pointed out that none of these clergy shirts had been ordained.  Non of the clergy shirts were settled to the pastoral charge and none of the clergy shirts is on the Church payroll.

I then took my ordination certificate off the wall and asked them to read the name on it.

They were still puzzled but they read my name.

I pointed out that I was ordained a minister in the Church not my wardrobe.  I was settled to the Congregation not my clothing.

Then I asked if I was doing a pastoral visit.  They agreed I was.  I asked if the family I was visiting had complained about the visit.  They had no knowledge of the family complaining.

So I asked what the issue was and they became sheepish.

It appears someone was upset that I went to a meeting with a family in my gym stuff.  Why would I do that?  Because the only time the family had available was in the middle of personal time when I was at the local school playing ball-hockey.  I cleared it with them that I would be dressed ultra casual and they were okay with it.

So, what harm was done?

None.

Some busybody decided to be offended without being a party to the conversation.

I suspect.  What if the busybody is a major contributor to the Church?  How do you tell them that they are being ridiculous in their expectations and that they really should mind their own business without that revenue going elsewhere.

Which is probably why ministers have to discuss some outrageous concerns with M&P.

I don't refer to my lack of clergy attire as me being off-duty.  I refer to it as me being undercover.

When I'm off-duty I get out of the province otherwise it is no small bother for me to drive over tothe Church and unlock this or that or maybe photocopy something or check the records or some other piddling thing that can wait.  And nobody thinks of those things as work either, they are favours and who wouldn't do a favour for a friend right?

So glad to no longer live in the manse right next to the Church.

Of course, the commutes in those days was cheaper.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I had a cleargy friend once, a very valued and wondeful friend.  He knew he was ALWAYS welcome at my house and could 'visit' or take quiet time alone.  It was HIS time and he wasn't accountable to me.  Of course, I wasn't a member of his, or any, congregation, so maybe that made it possible for us to be friends on that level. 

I understand the problems clergy can run into during social times, and yes, they are always on 'duty'.  If this role is being played properly it isn't just a role - being an ordained minister becomes 'who the person is'.  Too bad that so many have preconceived ideas of what that means in the way of dress, activities and life in general and don't keep their petty opinions to themselves.

I have another, related, question for the ministers here. Could you be friends with a lay person from another congregation - for example, someone you might know through presbytery or other wider church work that you do.

Hi somegalfromcan,

Certainly you can.

One still needs to watch what one says or does in the context of that relationship.  If the friend has questions about how their clergy is behaving or being treated by the congregation the ice begins to get very thin.

When I go back to NL for my vacation I worship with my settlement Church in St. Anthony.  We have several friends in the congregation and my wife and I were the matchmakers behind their current pastoral relationship which changes January 1, 2014.

When cruise ships come into town I am very happy to come back and be part of the tour team talking about the history of the building and the pastoral charge and I have always cleared that with the incumbent clergy so that I am not seen to be interfering.

Entertainingly when I was sitting in the pews with them this summer the incumbent minister announced that they were seeking a change in pastoral relations.  As expected this landed upon the unsuspecting congregation as something of a bombshell.  Typically, there is several moments of stunned silence and that was observed.  What happened next was something I have never experienced and it was almost creepy.  As a whole the congregation rotated in their pews until they were all facing me.

I very quickly announced I was happy right where I was.  There was some slight laughter but following the service my happiness here in Ontario was thoroughly tested.  So I would be welcome back.

Would we go back?

That would change the dynamics of the friendships we have slightly so not likely.  It isn't an impossibility.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I like the various answers this has received.

The Minster that I grew up with always had members of the congregation over to the manse for a Christmas Party every year.

Our last Minister invited everyone over to their house at least twice a year.

I would think the answer would be different for clergy depending on their current congregations – the level of maturity of the congregation etc.

When I invite clergy to do anything I hope that they can be themselves – and they know that – so do the other people that are invited….  I learned a long time ago that we do things on Friday nights – never on Saturday unless it is early….makes sense right – go out to the movies, over for dinner, heading out to the bar etc….

I do get that some clergy can be seen as on call all the time – try being a clergy person in a small town.  On call not only to the local congregation but the towns folks as well.  If this is your case – do something outside of the town with your clergy person…..nearby town etc.

I admire and respect a clergy person more for being themselves – not what I and/or others expect of them … and they are usually a lot more fun. 

I would make it an open invitation, if you are free on Friday, please feel free to drop in – some members of the congregation will be there and it would be great to see you.  Lots of times, I just introduce the clergy person by their first and/or last name.  Not tittle.  I don’t like being introduced that way…..  Hi, this Jobam, the proctologist…   really??????

I one of the (not-ordained) minsters at my church and also a PK, having watched my dad navigate this question.

It is always work, and sometimes enjoyable. I am always honoured to be asked by anyone at the church, but don't always say yes.  I work in social time to our family events so that I get a chance to relax and get to know people in a casual way, and clearly a work event.  That reduces the other opportunities in a good way.  

It is like business too though.  When you count on relationships for business, you are always somewhat 'on' and the risks are similar.  I'm not sure why that is hard to figure out. 

I'd love to play cards and watch a show with friends, if it fits my schedule and I don't mind being 'on duty' a little.  I won't go somewhere that I'm expected to perform or expecting won't be enjoyable, unless I know it is pastoral care at that point. Then I stay for a brief time and excuse myself.  I would also not be over playing cards at one person's house weekly, and not visiting others regularly if invited.  That woudl be bad form.

If the minister is a close friend who relies on you and yet is still a good minister, then by all means, invite them and allow them to be relaxed but still on duty.  Dont' expect gossip or pouring out of personal stories.  Just laugh and be friends.  And don't tell everyone you hosted - but don't hide it either.  If the minister isn't a close friend, then it is definitely work.  The invite is still ok, but not if you'll be hurt when they say no.  If you're having an open house, invite them graciously and nod understandingly when they say, "Sounds lovely but can't."

Ministers can't be buddies with everyone (exhausting!) and can't enjoy being out every night away from time off at home.  They can't play favourites either.  Be kind - invite with understanding and allow the no's.

PS - inviting the spouse - some spouses need a work/life balance and will feel on duty as well.  Others who are deeply involved in the church, need their friends to respect that lines must be drawn and supported, rather than being full-on confidants.  Respecting the spouse's situation is part of this whole question.

I am getting more confused.  Perhaps everybody, all the time, is 'working'.  A school teacher doing her grocery shopping - my 5-year old once called out in surprise at the supermarket "That's my teacher."  He had never seen her outside the school before. 

A druggist - they know by your medication what problems you might be having.  A banker - is he being responsible with his money?   A boss - can he ever join the gang for a Friday pizza lunch, or an after work drink?   And if your boss is present, can you be yourself?  

I was once at a home for a 40th birthday party, when in walked my company manager and his wife - she was good friends with the birthday girl.  There were probably 30 or 40 people in the house.  I later found out that he mentioned to my immediate supervisor that I had taken my shoes off and sat around in my sock feet (as had many of the guests).  He didn't think it was dignified. 

So I'm remembering back a few years.  The new minister and his wife joined a bowling league across town and went every Friday evening.  Before long they invited Seelerma and I to join with them.  Maybe the league needed two more people.  Maybe they wanted somebody to take a turn driving across town.  I thought it was because they enjoyed our company.   But, from the tone of this thread, I'm getting the impression that doing any social activity with a member of the congregation would be work.  I didn't know that we were making work for them. 

Seeler - with respect you are having an emotional reaction and I had trouble following your last post.  It is quite possible that your minister friends didn't think of the bowling league as work.  You won't know for sure unless you ask them.  Those of us who have answered your question have stated clearly that it would be work for us because when in the complany of parishoners we are always in the role.  There are boundaries in place - things that we would hold back because of the nature of our professional relationship.  It's why I'm careful not to socialize on a regular basis with anyone in the congregation. 

I guess I'm also having trouble understanding why it's important for you to be able to socialize with clergy and not have them consider it work?  As I stated it's entirely possible to enjoy aspect of your job.  So if you click socially with your minister and have a good time isn't that what's important?

seeler, there's your false dichotomy again and I have to admit that it really irritates me. Social invitations for a member of the clergy are work. That does not mean they cannot be enjoyable. It does mean that I am still the minister even while I am enjoying the occasion. 

I worked for a non-profit dependent on donations. So, though I was not counselling abused folks at the local diner, bowling alley, dinner party... I was always a representative of that organization. I was always accountable for my actions as such. Anything I might do could impact said organization as well as my role there. I learned boundaries and the wearing of many hats and "juggling". I did not consider my social engagements to be "work", though I was aware of boundaries and that I was my vocation 24/7. I could go to "work" mode in the midst of "social" mode. One could think of someone who "works the program" (AA for example). They are not "working" in social engagements, but they may "go there" as a sponsor in a social setting. If a situation arose socially, I may be called to go seamlessly into "work" mode. However, our training focused on those in certain vocations also not burning out and managing a social life. Thus the teaching of boundaries as well as how one maintains certain vocations. Ministers are not alone (police, etc.) They are often the only ones who view or voice social activity as work. It likely plays a role in burnout. It also plays a role in clergy being viewed as non-human entities.

Wait - what!?! Are you telling us that you ministers are not Gods??? 

Your getting irritated.  So am I.  They invited us; not the other way around.  So, if I understand you correctly that meant that they were, of their own accord, taking on an extra three hours of work a week.  Now I'm trying to imagine their meeting with the M & P committee explaining how they spend their 40 hour work week.  "Oh, we spend three hours each week with the Seeler family.  No, they don't have any particular problems that we've uncovered yet.  But I think maybe they were lonely and needed to get out more." 

Thank you Meredith and SG for your explanations. 

Meredith, I was simply trying to say that almost everyone (police, teachers, business people, bosses and employees) has a certain image to maintain when out in public. 

A kindergarden teacher can't swear at the produce manager or ignor a child who runs up to her and starts a conversation, even on her own time while getting groceries.  And apparently a secretary can't take off her shoes at a birthday party if her boss is present.   So, is it any different for clergy?   Perhaps by degree? 

At one time I did consider a minister to be 'always a minister'  24/7 (something like a mother is always a mother).  Then I began serving on various church committees; and hearing about the 40 hour work week - broken down into categories such as worship, faith development, pastoral care, administration, etc.    So, if they consider every appearance in a social situation to be work, how does it fit into their schedule?

So back to my original post.   I'm planning a pre-Christmas drop-in at my home - friends, neighbours, people I know through church or bowling.  Would an invitation to my minister, who I consider a friend, be a welcomed opportunity or would it be viewed as another demand on their time and more work?  

Seeler - I think you should do what seems natural to you and trust your guests to decide whether to attend or not.  If your minister is a' friend' in social situations and your 'minister' during church related activities, go ahead and invite.  The invitation will be considered by the other person (same as the rest of the guests) and either accepted or declined.  No one gets to be a minister/teacher/doctor/nurse etc  without some ability to manage their time and energy.

In any occupation there is a possibility that 'real life' may intrude into a social event.  A doctor may accept a social invitation but jump in to assist when another guest has a totally unpredicted heart attack!  A minister may hear of a death or disease in someone's family during some casual chatting and choose to say some caring words.

That was one example you gave, but that isn't what you said. If you need to be reminded of your own words:

Stress on the "any."

Having said that, while I may enjoy your company, even if I invite you I still have to be aware that I'm the minister. Again - I've seen bad things happen from ministers and parishioners socializing regardless of who initiates.

Steven - it was you, not me, that put the stress on 'any'; just as it was you who choose to quote only part of the paragraph setting out the situation.   I don't think you have to worry - if you were my minister I think I'd pick up the vibes that you didn't want to be invited to socialize.

Yes, I stressed the any - to highlight that part of your post. You moved from a specific example to a generalized comment.

You might be intrigued to know that I socialize with parishioners all the time. Was at a Christmas party just the other night at someone's home. But my personality is introverted, so doing so requires me to crash afterward. I don't find it something that helps me unwind - no introvert in any context does. Instead, I have to unwind from it afterward. And I am aware that I'm the minister in such situations. So, this party.

Wine was being served. This was pretty much all church people. About two thirds of the guests had some wine, the rest didn't. I was offered a glass. Unlike every other person there I had to do a sort of cost-benefit analysis. I had to go through mental calculations about the risk of accepting a glass of wine. Will the one third not drinking look at me and say inwardly, "the minister shouldn't be drinking. That's setting a bad example." I doubt anyone else had to think about that. There's "work" coming into something that for everybody else was an easy situation.

I accepted the glass of wine, and heard comments both ways. From one: "I think I just started to like you more." From another: "Do very many ministers drink these days?" Do you think it was relaxing to deal with such questions at a supposed social occasion? That's why clergy often consider social occasions to be work. We get judged, where many others don't. And before we say that people in other professions do too, we had at that party, let me see, a lawyer, an engineer, a social worker and a teacher among others. None of them had to consider the reaction to accepting a glass of wine. I did. And I got reaction.

Now - may I be honest - the tenor of your posts suggests to me that you're looking for a reason to be insulted by clergy. As someone else noted, why can't you accept the fact that a minister invited by you to a social occasion (which was the way you opened) might consider it work but could also enjoy your presence? What's wrong with that in your eyes? Why construct the false dichotomy of "this is work" vs. "I'm having a good time." Why can't it be, "this is work for me and I'm enjoying it." And why can't you be happy with that? Is being strictly "friends" with the minister that important to you that you won't want to socialize with them otherwise? I've learned over the years to be very cautious with parishioners who seem to have a need to be the minister's friend.

I am retired and when the church appointed a  L ( forget the initials), I watched a friend who was on the Search Cttee and the M&P ctte become very close to this minister.( not in a romantic manner) but spent a lot of time with him. to show him the ropes around the church. I can remember in a chat with her saying,"Be careful, don't get too friendly. He is your minister not a friend." That is exactly what happened, he in my opinion used her when it came to finding  his bearings and then eased off and gathered others in the congregation around him. ( retired ministers, staff, etc.) My friend was certainly hurt and things will never be good between them but she says ,"I should have listened to you". One of the things he did was remove her as a facebook friend. It was very hurtful. This is another thread that I will start.

Following this thread with interest, although I have never socialized with any of my ministers or considered them my personal "friends". 

In health care, the establishment of personal relationships (especially of a romantic nature) with clients is strongly discouraged. In fact, it is generally considered wise to let a year go by after a professional relationship has ended if any sort of personal one is going to develop. 

That said, our colleges recognize that there are times a dual relationship cannot be avoided. In these situations we are advised to exercise caution and be very clear about our boundaries. 

So it is interesting to hear about ministers socializing with parishioners. 

This is a good question related to the discussion we are having. 

Yes, the boss can join in on some occasions. 

When I was a manager (back in the day) I joined in on some occasions - - primarily the department Christmas party & going away events when people were leaving. Whether I enjoyed these gatherings or not wasn't the point for me. They were part of my work responsibilities. 

Staff would sometimes socialize on their own and not include me. I was completely fine with this. As people's boss, you are not their friend, no matter how cordial the relationship. 

I am always happy to be involved with persons as a person. I like to go to sporting events where children and youth in the congregation are involved. Also school concerts and other special family events. This offers opportunity for support and encouragement, as well as opportunity for insight that may be of service as we go forward together in community.

My understanding is that ministry salary sets me free to study, pray and serve the community, not for my advantage, but for the advantage of the community. I have one basic rule in play. I consider myself free to say yes or no to any invitation. Saying yes, I am whole hearted in my participation. Saying no, I am indicating other priorities and commitments for the time and date, or I am in need of some away time.

I am resistant to any and all definitions of my work which are rooted in capitalist consciousness and expectations.

George

I appreciate the honest comments of the ministers in this thread, it does make the stress of being a minister more visible.

I seem to hear seeler questionning if the friendly invitation to the bowling group by the minister was "part of the job" or an expression of friendship. And- if it was "part of the job"- she would feel more like a "subject" (of outreach), and be hurt, while as an offer of friendship, she would be on the same level.

(Correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation).

There is where the ministers are saying that friendships with parishioners are difficult, because ministers are watched at all times.

This makes perfectly sense to me, as in the health system, as paradox mentions, having close relationships with clients is also not a good idea. That doesn't mean that one can't be friendly on occaisions where paths cross. I have come across a lot of people I have really liked- but I would not think of turning this into a friendship.

That doesn't mean I didn't do what Idid with all my heart.

So, it's very likely that your minister truly likes you, seeler, but as long as she/he is also your minister, you might not be on the same level. And if you don't want to add to her/his stress, then just enjoy the company and be the one who doesn't have expectations or judgements. Isn't that what true friends are about?

Interesting comments.

For me I know that there are some social occasions that come with the job which I am free to accept or reject: LIke an anniversary where I am invited as the minister.  Here it is complicated for this is a pastoral event, but since there are many how do I choose?  The invite must be early and I have a role. otherwise I decide on whether I have time.

A party is another situation where I come knowing who I am, that is I will be seen as the minister.  My yes depends on invite early and whether I have time, the same as I would expect if I invited someone to my house.... we all have many demands.

An open house is easy, do I have time.  Again, though, I am there with some pastoral connection. We just cannot get away from this.

Inviting members to join me in a sport, say, is because I want to not because they are members of my cong.... we need bodies and you have an interest in the sport.

Friends in the cong it is always a both/and ( as Steve and others point all these situations are both work and have enjoyment mixed)  Here the situation is complicated: some friendships emerge but there are not because of membership but we discover other interests - but the issue of cong life is often off the table.  Then there those friends whom you develop before they came to church and the friendship  leads to join the church, and they remain friends after you leave.  Where as most relationships developed within the cong end when you leave, when you see one another it is friendly but not intimate.

Yes all professions have this problem of being a doc, say, and that being part of the social interaction. Alll of get judged however, there can be a small mindedness when it comes to being a minister, like you drink and the unsaid thing is you should not, even thought the person who thinks this does drink.  Old habits take a long time in disappearing, especially on the part of those who are not in the church.

To sum up we are always on duty, we have fun, some of us more shy than others, some like large parties but are drained after, others energized by them, some like some dinner parties.  But in the end do not demand that we participate because we are your minister, but we may come to enjoy ourselves, and yes we are at work.  Even with friends over a dinner the discussion is demanding, for all, because we talk about things that matter, otherwise we would not be friends.

Small talk for me and others is the most demanding and takes a lot out of me,but deep conversations energize and large gatherings tend to make it hard to do that, so I oftern say no, not because I don't care about the people, but because I need some space from being who I am as a minister.

It sounds to me like ministers need more atheist friends so they can visit someone and actually relax.

Steven, John, if you guys are ever on the 400 between Toronto and Barrie with time to kill, give me a shout.

Chansen you are correct - my best friends are like you, asking hard questions, some are atheists who are also open to panentheism as a possiblity.  By the way I have enjoyed our discussions here.

You're making me cry. Okay, you can come, too.

Party at chansen's!!!!!

Well, if you come here, you won't have to worry about Misery and Pedantics (or whatever "M&P" stands for).

Wow chansen - thanks

No problem, Pan. I'll try not to spill any God in your beer, but I don't know if I can prevent that.

Hi chansen,

Or friends who aren't parishioners.  One can never have too many friends.

Thank you for the invitation.  If I am ever in that neck of the woods I will look you up.

Grace and peace to you.

John

The other challenge i, i think, is not is it work, as is it paid work.

When I go out for a christmas party with work, it is work. I am aware of how my behaviour and my partner's impacts my working relationships.  Yes, it is also fun, but I am aware of my guards.   I am not paid when I am there, nor do I consider it part of my work week.

If i go out for dinner with work folks, it is the samet hing.  It is something where I am aware why I am there and what the rules are....ie...conscious of the underlying threads of politics and career paths.  There are times when it goes past that, when someone becomes a friend, and that can be a challenge when the staffing relationship changes. 

In those social times, though, I am not paid. It isnot part of my 40hr work week.