...goodness ... not like that in my church.....

The only time a person leaves early is when they absolutely have to....

Hugs

Rita

Hi crazyheart,

Not many no.  And not always either.

Typically any choir members who have decided, ahead of time that they need to leave before the service ends informs me that this will happen so that their leaving is not a source of distraction.  And any who leave without having previously informing tend to explain why afterwards.

I'm not their mother.  They don't need my permission.

If someone leaves the service obviously angry that becomes a concern.  If somebody leaves because of a developing situation (I have had doctors, volunteer firefighters, and police officers in my congregations sometimes they are needed elsewhere) I trust they are being mature about it.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I've not noticed choir members leaving early. I have observed that many choir members don't come to church at all unless the choir is singing.

CH - if your church is only seen as an opportunity for free baby-sitting, then it's time to put more thought into why you worship and what it would take to make worship welcoming to those parents who see fit to avoid it. The parents are simply voting with their feet. And I assume that no one has asked those parents what it would take for them to be interested in staying during worship. Some parents see Sunday school as early religious instruction, but in the "school" model, the parents have figured that they've fininshed the course and have graduated, so why stick around? Some see worship in the same light - a place to learn more about God.  Having been through the lectionary at least 10 times nothing, I passed that milestone a while back (although there are the occasional exceptions). For me, worship has to be a place to engage with the divine (even if it's through the person next to me), or it ceases being worshipful or meaningful.

The only person who left our choir early was the chief of a small fire department nearby. If anyone leaves early it is because of something they need to do.

The only "quirk" I can think of right now is the "latecomers club" made up of people coming to the door as the service starts or during the greetings. I am often part of that crowd it seems.....

The examples you give CH make me wonder about the quality of the communication in your congregation.  Do the members tend to be 'stiff upper lippish' and only speak to personal friends at church?  Is it difficult for people to become truly accepted into the fuller life of the congregation?   Are there activities in small groups that make it possible to chat about things like this in a non confrontational way?

I had the urge to leave the service last week because of something that came up that I felt was important to the theme of the service itself but I didn't. And afterwards was afraid to discuss why because I love the ministers and don't want to insult anyone but there was an oversight I noticed that I thought was important. Then again, maybe they noticed it themselves and me belabouring it would be unecessarily judgmental of me.

I would never leave in the middle, otherwise, unless there was an urgent reason. Maybe a minute early to beat the bathroom line-up if I needed to;) or if I was asked to volunteer with something that required I step out early. There has been twice in two years I felt like leaving. Once was in the middle of a special event- for which I brought my concerns to the minister and they were addressed. The last time though, wasn't sure how to approach it. I am generally not fussy about the small stuff- like some procedual issue not going smoothly or some last minute change- no biggie- but this one could have resulted in hurt feelings. Because I know it wasn't intentional is why I haven't mentioned it (yet). Should I?

Hi Crazy...nope, I haven't seen anyone in the choir leave after they sing, nor have I seen parents leave when the kids go to Sunday school.  We're all very polite, I guess

Sometimes, it is tough  to write about some things. The parents I spoke about told me they left if  my teammate was preaching. If I was preaching.  they stayed .However this is a few years ago and the church has very few children now for parents to go or stay.

As for the choir, at least 1 person ( different ones) leaves every week. They are also encouraged by the choir leader to stay home if they are not singing - Sunday after Easter, after Christmas etc. This has not changed since I retired.

The only times I have noticed people (parents, choir members or ordinary church folk) leaving the service early is when they absolutely have to. Often it's because the service has run past 11:00 and the HandyDART is here to pick them up. If they were doing it regularly, I would consider asking them why they are leaving early each week and would ask myself what could be done to meet their needs?

I think it’s more than politeness.  While issues always arise as to why someone might have to leave,  I am thinking the service isn’t meeting the needs of some of those who attend.  Interesting that we want them to fit our module. 

Crazyheart, i have seen choir members leave, but, typically it is because of any of the following:

• they had previous committments and would have skipped church, but felt they needed to be there for the anthem
• they are sick (the same reason anyone else leaves in a service)
• they are the person who is making coffee or putting it out

Parents

• yes, had parents leave, one in particular.  they needed to just be.  Looking back on it, would have been nice if someone offered to go with them
• yes had parents leave to go shopping;  life was crazy, at least they sat with the kids during church portion rather than dropping them at the door

others

• I hae encouraged adult programming and had people leave when the kids do.  I think it is a good model.  so many people do not find the standard church model a worshipful experience or a lerning experience. 

Pinga, I am not sure how adult programming during the worship time would work out. In my congregation, the regular attenders wouldn't be excited about this model. But I wonder about the folks that only come once or twice a month or even less often. Perhaps an alternative to the standard church service would interest them.

The option is they stay away, or they come less & less often until eventually they stay away or we accept alternative forms of church will allow family units to attend, including the one who likes choir, the youth who goes to programming, the person who desires a standard service / sermon, the one who wants talking/programming/adult education.

You can do it by having two sessions:  early & later with youth programming in both, or you allow people to leave early.

You are right, absolutely, that some people are ticked that you are leaving.  Typically it isn't the minister who is ticked, as they wish they could have alternative manners of discussion , communication more often as well, ie they get that the service isn't for everyone

Pinga, Can you say more about the alternative programming you would like to see?

Some Synagogue services are very interesting:  people come and go; some chat with others when they are not interested in that part of the service, though they do so quietly.  In other words, a synagogue services provides a time and place for nourishing connections--to God and with one another.  I thank you CH for raising this  -- I am considering how I can use this issue to encourage discussion about what each person needs from worship and if the expectations of the many that people should arrive by the beginning and stay to the end is a form of tyranny.

lol@P3

I wouldn't necessarily call it tyranny. There's no punishment involved in leaving early ( unfortunately, I guess some see more 'punishment' involved in staying for the whole thing ;) ) I might call it an unrealistic expectation for everyone to follow. Maybe if possible finding different times or days of the week for an alternative- suggest a bible study, or gathering of another nature they could join that fulfills their spiritual needs instead if there isn't formally another worship service. I can relate. Sometimes I just wish I could come for the sermon and prayer- even just silent prayer and contemplation- and people to discuss faith with the way we do here at WC- there's not a whole lot of opportunity for casual open discussion about faith matters, I find. I would personally like that. I find things too structured sometimes. Work and life in general structured enough and runs on the clock and I have a hard enough time keeping up. Church needn't always be that way, imo. But that's me. I often feel badly about that but I need to work and work is only available to me certain days and times and there may be nothing available on my time off- lets say a Friday morning- where I can go and worship and it would be unrealistic of me to expect some form of worship to happen at my whim. I can often do without some of the rigamarole in church services though. That's my bias. I find it old fashioned and just something I need to do to be polite. And so I do when I am there. The reasons I do go are enough to keep me there for the whole thing (when I do go). I don't expect it to be perfect just for me. I prefer alternate services when available ( either me or the services- as my schedule can vary from week to week). I wonder if maybe having 5 minute intermissions between 'segments' so people can attend the parts they feel most relevant for them in worship would help-although I can see some people not being happy at all about that. It could interupt the flow. Or, just accept that people might come and go freely and just ask that they do so quietly- like sit somewhere where they can move in or out- the pews nearest the back maybe- without shifting everyone's attention from the rest of the service. I think it's probably best just to accept this reality- and like somegal said- try to find out why and if something can be done to accommodate their needs. If not, just let them leave early, no questions. It's their journey too.

Before serving here, most of my services were under an hour.  My first couple of services here ran a little over an hour and I was told not to rush it.  They were used to staying for up to 90 minutes, though most really did not want the service to last more than 75 minutes, partly because of bathroom related issues.  As long as the quality of the content of the service is good to excellent, people here don't mind a bit longer service.  Coffee time usually lasts 45 to 90 minutes as well.  The people in the congregation, for the most part, like each other, and enjoy spending time together.  Our music is almost always simply excellent.

Paradox3, thanks for asking.

My dream was that there were options.

Everyone comes for the first 10 minutes together.

Then, some stay for corporate worship

Others are given a reading to ponder, before they head off to run, bike or walk

Others head into prayer with prayer lists and/or same reading

Others move into discussion with same reading,

Others move into art stations.

If you think of it, it is a bit like the rotational model of church school, where youth go to different stations; however, in this case, we are presuming adults know enough to choose.

Note: other(s) may be one or many.

I've certainly heard of families where the kids came to Sunday School but the parents didn't come to church so I'm not surprised.

The choir sounds odd. Most of the churches I've been in, the choir is involved right up until near the end of the service, so someone leaving early would likely have a reason to do so.

Mendalla

Mendalla = different ones leaving every Sunday - fashion shows, football games, you name it.

In this particular church, if it is not about the choir, it is nothing. They don't in the most part stay for coffee time or attend any thing that they aren't performing in.Notice I use the word perform and not worship.

The odd time I attend a service, I haven't seen this.

I have had been in situations where it is made difficult to leave.  Once was a class in public school.  I needed to take a medication.  The teacher wouldn't let me out of class to use the fountain a few steps away.  I was going to just walk out anyway, but she physically blocked the door.  We both ended up in tears.  Another time was a university class.  The instructor (without a PhD) would yell at people, disrupting the lecture for 250 people.  Sometimes my allergies would make me throw up and I would leave a lecture.  When I feel like that, the last thing I want is 250 people staring at me.  After that, I got permission to sit in on the lectures taught by a prof instead.

Making accomodations for people to stay is helpful.  Making them feel ashamed for leaving early might just make them stop coming altogether, and their family members might stop attending as well.

At one time in the small church I attended a long time choir membeer, with a ricch versitile voice, started leaving right after the anthem.  The minister and the choir knew why - her son anad his sfamily attended another church and she left in time to go to that church and hear her granddaughters sing in their junior choir, worship with them and join them for lunch.  Our minister changed.  The new minister objected.  'Make a choice - us or them.'   Our choir lost a gifted singer, our congregation lost a long time member.

In that same congregation a young mother (Kay) came to church in her work uniform.  She slipped out the back door after the sermon to get to work by 12:00 leaving her husband to sit by himself during the closing hymn and benediction, pick up the kids from Sunday School, take them home and make lunch.  The minister objected.  To 'make things easier for Kay' our service was moved an hour earlier.  Kay was able to dress appropriately, stay through the service, pick up the kids, rush home, make lunch, put on her uniform and get to work at 12:00.  Kay preferred the former arrangement. 

As for parents leaving after the children's story and going for coffee - has your church considered having its own coffee house.  Perhaps those young parents, and maybe others in the congregation, would prefer a more informal gathering, more interactive.  Perhaps they could meet in the church parlor, have coffee and discuss their lives and concerns - anything from the sale on children's clothes at Walmart, the latest movie, the problems with childcare, the burden of caring for aging parents, concerns for the enviroment, or even their spiritual development (or lack thereof).   When our church ran WonderCafe.live several people considered it to be their time in 'church' and more fulfilling than sitting in the pews.

Or what about adult Sunday School? 

Yes.  In our weekly routines several of the choir members leave to help with Sunday School following the Anthem; which follows the Theme Conversation.  We moved it to that place in the service to accommodate the choir members who wanted to be participating in Sunday School.  And then there are the teens who need to get across the city to work on Sunday afternoon.  At this time of year the accountants who come to church before heading to the office to get some work done on their tax files (arriving after a morning meeting with clients about those taxes)...I'm glad they came at all.

In the announcement time yesterday, I talked about Wondercafe and this discussion thread.  I went on to claim that it is up to each person to decide for which parts of the service they will choose to be present, and that, no matter the choice, we are glad for the time they are present.  I hope to have opportunities to talk to people here about SG's ideas.

JMLochead, agreed.  thankful that  they are there at all.  Exactly.

I am reminded of two houses that we went to visit when I was a kid. 

The one was thankful for the time we spent, even if just 15 min or 30min to say hello, and drop off an item, and sit down for a few minutes.  Rarely ate there, but remembered it as a welcoming place because of the message as we left was "thanks for coming" "travel safe"

The other wouldn't matter if we were there for 2 hrs or 2 days, it was never enough. I remember dread, even after sitting htere for a long time, as the message was "you don't come enough or stay long enough"

Guess which one I wanted to go to?

What about coming to church late. Say about just in time for the sermon. Would this be seen as inappropriate?

dreamer - in many churches, if they only come for the sermon, they've already missed the best parts!

seeler - Objecting to the wearing of work clothes in church (especially when there is little time to change clothes) is outrageous, and I believe, maligns God. God honours our work. Work contributes to the maintenance of ourselves and our families and our society as a whole. And the worker not only "deserves his wages" (Matthew10:10/Luke10:7), but also respect, part of which is to be paid a fair wage under fair conditions. To say that work clothes are not allowed in church is to say that God does not respect our work. I would say this would indicate that the church powers not only don't respect work but by extension don't respect God. And it's ironic, considering that it's the work that is providing the $$ to keep the church going.

Spiritbear - to be fair I don't think the minister was objecting to the woman's work clothes but rather to the fact that she left before the service was over.  Apparently missing the final hymn and benediction was a 'no-no' for this minister.  She seemed to take it as a personal affront if anybody left before she dismissed them - even when it was obvious that it had nothing to do with her or the service.

Wow: this thread has only served to underscore why "attending church" is no longer the 'norm' for people of my generation (or younger~I'm 46). Especially the example of 'Kay'; poor woman.  What an outrageous busybody that minister is! I hope she realizes her closemindedness is contributing to the collapse of her congregation. (unlikely)

There was a great tweet on Twitter today from "Unvirtuous Abbey" It said "We have an 8 track church in an MP3 world"

Well, while we are talking about it, there are some churches that folk don't come on the day of the annual  meeting,/ people don't come if the minister is away and a substitute is there ( thatnthey don,t like the preaching style), when the Riders are playing at 2pm./when the little ones are noisy and there is no Church School. I guess there are a lot of people turned off by rules and regulations in church., 

In the first church I pastored, the congregation tripled in size every other Sunday because my predecessor had recruited unchurched   neighborhood kids to sing in a children's choir and many of their family members came out to hear them sing..  The problem was that all the family members  left  right after the youth choir sang.  So I fixed them!  I had the children's chioir sing after my sermon!

Did you also plan for a free lunch after the service ?

I'm more surprised you didn't lock the doors from the outside.

I don't find that comment helpful or gracious Chansen.  Are you having a tougher than usual day?

Think about it. Berserk made these people into a captive audience. Is that the way you get people in the door and convert them into believers? Give their kids a microphone and make the parents wait through a sermon before being allowed to hear their own children sing?

It would be different if the parents sought a church choir for the kids.  When you recruit unchurched kids, maybe some of those kids will want to stick around later on.  No issue with that.  Don't expect their parents to sit through a sermon though.  Why not just keep it as is?

Because Berserk needs a captive audience. That was the point of my joke.

I'm missing something?  Berserk = uccProgressive?

As far as I can tell, but dreamerman called it first. Berserk claimed to have pastored a UCC church for 3 years on another site. It makes a lot of sense and explains his attitude and word choices.

You'd think that someone with a PhD from Harvard would be better at disguising his sockpuppet account. Of course, you'd think that a PhD from Harvard wouldn't be running around the Internet making sockpuppet accounts. I bet you'd be right on both counts.

Let's see if dreamerman and I are wrong.