I am proposing that we have a discussion, in church life, on various sections of the manual, over the next year.

 

Some may be dry, some may be interesting, I have no idea how they will go.

 

I anticipate it will bring out the geek in us all....but, it may be helpful as well.

 

I think the introduction is a good place to start, so I will post it here below....

 

what do you think folks?

 

ps...i am using the manual which comes into affect August 2010

INTRODUCTION

 

The first edition of The Manual was issued in 1928, under the authority of the Second General Council (1926). Since then, The Manual has been a valuable resource for members and organized bodies of The United Church of Canada. Its purpose and use need to be clearly understood.

 

The need for a document such as The Manual is an acknowledgment of our human limitations, both individual and corporate, and of our desire to point to God’s dominion in our interactions with others.

 

The purpose of law within the church is to order procedures and to provide for the consistent resolution of differences, and so to help to achieve order and justice. As an elaboration and extension of the Basis of Union, The Manual was intended to cover correct procedures for most foreseeable contingencies. The succeeding editions, which all share this purpose, thus embody the wisdom of those who have gone before.

 

The Manual is a living, working document that is regularly amended. Members of the United Church share a common belief that God’s will for the church is continually being revealed, and that the church must therefore be “always reformed.” But this belief cannot always be translated promptly and adequately into changes in The Manual. Contingencies that had not been foreseen need to be addressed; agreement cannot always be achieved on the wisest way of dealing with a contingency. So The Manual continues to be a document of compromise, and therefore is not without ambiguity, some perhaps intentional.

 

The Manual is one of the means by which the United Church does its work and safeguards its members. It protects the minority, and provides the means by which any member may express convictions and seek justice, from the Congregation through to the General Council. The Manual likewise assists the majority in making necessary decisions and carrying out policies and plans.

 

Freedom and responsibility under law not only are part of the heritage of our conciliar church. They also place inescapable demands upon every member of the church.

 

If the proposal to restructure passes GCE next week, the Manual will be completley rewritten. It will take a year. This should eb the last iteration of the current Manual.

DKS, 

 

What will this restructuring look like?  What is being proposed?

 

Let's have this discussion. It should be interesting, at times, and I for one am open to participating.

 

Now, the first thought I have is the question of why you good folks need The Manual at all. You see, we Baptists, and many other Christian denominations as well, make out perfectly fine basing our organizations on The Holy Bible. Why does the United Church feel the need to augment the Scriptures with another text.

 

Looking forward to the discussions.

I wonder how many do......how many members can or do understand the manual. Does anyone give their new members a manual? How many congregations give each board member a copy of the manual at each new publication, and ensure each new board member get one?

Ok, Jae, the manual outlines the organizational structure and how each level interacts, such things as quorum, etc. Most organizations would have manuals or procedures in place. Even our workplace does, as did the non-profit daycare.

This is one of my favourite parts of the introduction. I wonder as people bring forward proposals or whine about having had to go to GCE for a ruling, if they understood this part. No document can remain a regular size and not have ambiguity. With the various sizes and context of the pastoral charges and courts of the church, well, there has to be some items open for interpretation. The best policies and standards that I work with have room for interpretation, clearly stating the guiding principle.. I am thankful that the writers of the manual understood this requirement.

Probably my 2nd favourite part -- it protects the minority but gives the majority the processes by which to be church...not bad as a goal.

There we go with that "every member" bit again.  Do you think every member understands?

hahahaha, pinga. i heard of a church the other day that needed something clarified and they couldn't find their one copy. So no I don't think the board gets copies and I don't think the congregation as a whole even knows what the manual is. MPO

But I do want to say, pinga, that this would be a good undertaking for Wondercafe. Again, MPO.

 

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!  I hope not...hahahahahahaahahahahahahaha!!!!

Our charge always has at least one copy of the most recent manual.  When I was chair of the Leadership Board I purchased my own so that I could have one at home.  My experience is that our leadership has always used the manual to refer to regarding procedure, etc.

And no, (lol), we do not give our new members a manual.

 

I'm glad I struck people's funny bone...but, if we get a drivers manual when we get a license, and we get a manual when we buy a stove...why don't we get the manual when we become a member?

 

Also....our church did give a new manual to each board member when the new manual came out...unless they declined it as they were using the online manual.  (you can download the pdf for free here -> http://www.united-church.ca/manual

I do not remember knowing about the manual until after I had been on our board for a couple of years. In fact, I became more aware of it, and its implications (for lack of a better word right now) last year when we were going through our crap at the church. I would doubt that the average member of our congregation knows about it, or about its contents.

Northwind -- to me that someone is on the board and does not know about the manual or have a copy is a system issue -- ie, something the matter in the board processes......my thoughts are the board chair or delegate should ensure this occurs.

 

what do you think?

Most often, Presbytery reps do not have manual or access to one.

that is really, really bad...another importnat point to note as part of the onboarding of presbytery reps. ==== ask if have manual, if not, get them one.

 

I totally agree. We also learned belatedly that there was information about the roles on the board. There was no orientation for the board, or information for new board members. Last year certain things happened, then the minister criticized us for doing things wrong. One thing in particular happened over a period of time, and could very easily have been stopped if HE had said something. It was a very easy thing to explain. He had no business criticizing us because it was his lack of guidance and leadership that allowed it to happen. Of course, now that we know about it, we have the responsibility to guide and lead new members.

 

I guess part of the problem is that it is a relaxed easy going board. There were few issues or crises to deal with, so there was no problem with how it was run. When the faeces hit the fan, well, that was when some things broke down. We are wiser now and have learned a lot. We are now being guided by clergy who are better at providing that leadership role.

In my previous church we tried to keep our manual in our library - available to any church member who wished to refer to it.  I don't think the majority of the congregation were aware of it, maybe not all of the board members either.  But it came in handy on several occasions that I was aware of - even something as simple as defining my position which I usually refer to as Lay Pulpit Supply.  It's changed a few times in the last 20 years.  I'm not sure what the latest manual says.

 

Maybe the manual would have helped me with my latest question to the experts on the WonderCafe.

 

 

Amen. We have two copies, one in the church office and one in my office.

 

They can be downloaded for free from the United Church web site.

I find it funny that people complain about the lack of knowledge of the manual, and that there are issues and  then find it totally inappropriate to give members a manual.

 

 

Every charge should be required to download or purchase a copy of the Manual every time it comes out.  So should every member of the Order of Ministry.  Unfortunately that doesn't happen (I have already saved a copy of 2010 on my laptop and on the church office computer).

 

DKS,

if the restructuring is that severe is it within the scope of GCE???  Tell us more?????

OK is everyone else gettting really strange formatting on this thread??????

nope, not me..other than the original quote..which was my goofy pasting into the comment block

No. Gord

. Everything is good here

 

Agreed. Tell us more. I haven't heard through the grapevine of anything so radical. What's up?

I find this quite astonishing.  When I was on church committees, I always had the latest copy of the manual as well as whatever other manual/handbook was relevant. (BTW, I also believe that if every pastoral charge utilized the Financial Handbook for Congregations, centralized payroll wouldn't have been necessary).  References to the manual were made at every congregation meeting and a copy was at every council/board/session/trustees/congregational meeting.  I can't imagine not even knowing of the existance of the document...cms

A few ministers I've known liked to keep it locked in their office, and anyone wanting to check something practically had to have permission.

 

so, a manual 101 does seem like a reasonable thing to do..

 

there is interest,

 

there is different levels of understanding

 

there is a sense of importance.

 

i'm not the one to teach the manual...i'll be part of the learning as we go, but,  I am happy to do my best to faciliatate sectionals on it.

 

i am happy to stick with the introduction for a bit, as we are really hearing the various ways the manuals is used in congregations.

 

as this is the church life category, i wold encourage all people who are active members especially those in committee or congregational leadership positions in groups or as mentors...go to your board & ask - heh, who has a copy of the manual..and if they don't have one, print out pdf copies for them.

 

how does that sound?

 

Mandated by GC and GCE.

 

http://www.united-church.ca/files/communications/news/general/100419_advice.pdf

 

This will be discussed next weekend at GCE. Copnsultation has already taken place with the church. The notes are found here:

 

http://www.united-church.ca/files/communications/news/general/100419_responses.pdf

 

150 pages of consultation notes.

I am going to download the latest copy of the Manual and start to review it. I have checked various sections in the last year as a way to understand how to deal with certain conflicts and stresses we have experienced in our congregation. I am the alternate Presbytery Rep and will be going to our fall Presbytery meeting in place of our regular rep, because it will be in Whitehorse, and our regular rep does not want to commit to that trip. I will also look up the current guide for Presbytery reps. I have an old version, so I am guessing there is something more current. I have downloaded the M&P manual, since I am a new member of that committee.

 

I think our board has learned tons in this past year. I am hoping that one of the things that will have come out of this is we will make sure new members of the board will know about the manual and the roles of different board members.

In order to understand the new one, it is a good idea to review the existing process.

 

i can see it as a two parter.

 

** existing

** proposed

DKS -- i'm thinking I am missing one of your stepping stones....the link you attached was the notes from input to the planning process... The notes are much broader than a manual rev, though, a manual rev may be a logical action.

 

Not sre why you included the link, maybe I am msising something, but, i thought there was another thread on the proposal already active on the cafe.

DKS,

would the Manual as described work as a legal guide though?  Part of the reason for the bloat and growth was in the [perceived] need to be as thorough and precise as possible.  And currently the stuff in handbooks and policy boooks does not carry as much weight as what is in the MAnual.. Would that change?

Thanks DKS, that clarifies things. I thought you were talking about an overhaul of the structure rather than an overhaul of the Manual. I actually helped write a proposal from Manitou Conference to General Council about 10 years ago that proposed the creation of a more user-friendly Manual. Glad it's finally happening!

Actually, Gord, our workplace processes are moving to less definition at the policy level (ie, manual level), with principles, and then, scenarios or clear work instructions / procedures.  Why? The more precise you try to get in policies, the less likelihood you have of meeting them as due to the variety of circumstances humans and orgs get into the more likelihood that there will be misses....and hence cause for judgement or audit findigns.

 

The structure will be overhauled, too. Read that proposal very carefully. In about a week we may not recognize the United Church! (OK, that's a bit of an exaggeration  )

 

Read the earlier link. The notes simply support the fact that consultation has occurred. This process, including a Manual revision, is moving at lightspeed. We heard from our GCE rep yesterday at presbytery. Our process for change has changed!

Personally, I think it's best of all members of any organization are given the plan to how their organization is run.

 

How else are they to best participate.

 

 

hi pinga - I will read with interest, but not sure how much feedback  I will be able to add to the discussion.  I refer to the on-line manual from time to time ... I much prefer that to using lots of paper.    I don't think church members need to be given a manual - but certainly a short orientation to make them aware of its existance & where to find it online might be quite helpful.

 

As you wrote above pinga, my workplace now has a "Decision Support Guide" rather than P&P manual ... similar to what you have stated ... guiding principles,  with specific actions on a few legislated items.  

However the current role of the Manual is not just guiding principles.  It is a document that outlines the legal process we have to use in certain circumstances (the discipline of members of the Order of Ministry for example).  We need something for those legal purposes.

I went to download the manual and found it is huge. I am certainly not going to print it out. I meant to ask about borrowing one from the church today but got sidetracked and forgot. Is there an abridged version, or somewhere that you can look at it bit by bit online?

just download the pdf to your pc, northwind, and read/search what you need.

 

gordw...our policies are also legal items.   well, legal as in we are audited based on them, and violations can result in a note on our financial statements -- definitely a significant item,

 

Part of it is that all United Churches are governed by acts of Parliament and provincial statutes.

I read the document. Interesting stuff, DKS. I've somehow missed this discussion. Option 1 strikes me as rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. As to Option 2, personally, I'd have preferred the elimination of a Court and the amalgamation of the work of Presbytery and Conference, as per the remit of a few years ago which unfortunately failed. I'm not sure I see the logic of saying that Conference will do pastoral relations and Presbytery will do mission, nor do I really see what that's going to accomplish. I like Option 3. It's very much a direction that Niagara Presbytery is currently trying to use in planning for new ministry initiatives. I think the document should openly acknowledge its debt though - this seems to me to be basically a United Church variant of the "Fresh Expressions" movement, a largely Anglican initiative that has taken off with moderate success in the UK and is spreading to Canada. The Niagara work (which is very much in the planning stage) is based on the FE model. Perhaps "Fresh Expressions" can't be mentioned by name by GC or GCE because it has a reputation as being "evangelical" and therefore outside the "ethos" of the UCC? I like the rejection of assessments as a way of funding new ministries. All assessments do, in my opinion, is raise resentment at the congregational level. If a program can't be "sold" to the church, or if those who argue for support for a program can't be bothered doing the hard work of selling it to the church  then it shouldn't be forced on the church. (I've engaged unsuccessfully in this debate over a "voluntary" assessment Niagara brought in to fund "core ministries" of the Presbytery a few years ago which basically says pay it voluntarily or we'll force you to pay it.) I'm not sure Option 4 needs much comment, being as it is an amalgam of the other options (sort of a typical UCC compromise position!)

 

Thanks for the link.

 

And yet you all seem to cry for seperation of church and state.

Hi Pinga,

 

 

I will look forward to that.

 

 

Capital idea!

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi jae,

 

 

I like that you are open to asking questions about who we are and why we do things.

 

It really rubs me the wrong way that you cannot appear to ask those questions without assuming that we are up to no good.

 

The Manual is not an augmentation of Scripture.  It is not even considered to be on par with scripture.

 

The Manual is, simply, the constitution/by-laws of The United Church of Canada.

 

It doesn't tell us about scripture or what to believe.  It tells us how to act with respect to one another.  It establishes structures that help us constitute the various courts of our church and it proclaims where the limits of courts and individuals in our denomination actually are.

 

And as far as your crack about  Baptists basing their organization on the Holy Bible you would have been more accurate if you had said, "Baptists base their organizations on their interpretation of the Holy Bible."  

 

You might also want to check the history of both our respective organizations.  You Baptists split like a runway model changes clothes.  The United Churchs are the products of differing denominations coming together as one.  Which is more in line with the Holy Bible?

 

 

How do you want to shape those discussions jae?  Want to learn something or do you want to fight about it?

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi Pinga

 

In that respect is The Manual not very much like the British North America Act?  Very valuable to who we are as Canadians though not something we all have copies of or have committed to memory right?

The Manual shapes how we do business and if it does that job well enough we do our business without a whole lot of reference to the Manual.  In fact, the only time the Manual is mentioned is when some part of our business is out of whack, or when what we are about to do is something that needs to be done in a very particular way.

 

Indeed.  While it allows The Manual to be an important piece of work it does not allow The Manual to be our ultimate piece of work.  And while we, as a denomination, recognize the validity of the interpretive process to scripture we should also recognize that the same interpretive process needs to be applied to The Manual.

 

And that not because The Manual has equal importance to the Bible but rather both shape and form how we relate with one another.

 

Indeed.  Especially since finding one's self in the minority is not that hard a thing to do on any particular issue.

 

 

Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaches of the law right?  Again, it is not important that every member of The United Church understands every section and subsection of The Manual.  Much of their lives takes place outside of the bounds of any properly constituted court of the Church.  What goes on inside the bounds of those courts should be influenced by The Manual.

Not knowing The Manual can lead individuals to make mistakes.  Small ones are easy to correct.  Big ones can be corrected with less ease.

And, of course, just because one has The Manual to work with there will always be operator error.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi GordW,

 

 

I'm getting some.  It looks really wonky while constructing my response.  It just looks piecemeal when I post that response.

 

Like sometimes when I was responding to Pinga it was changing font styles or italicizing or stuff.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi jae,

 

 

What?  Even if there was a huge cry within the United Church for a separation of church and state I would hope that we are intelligent enough to know what is meant by that particular piece of regulation.

 

Meaning that the state doesn't tell the Church how it must conduct its business.

 

That doesn't mean that the state cannot pass legislation which protects the Church.

 

It simply means that the state will not elevate the status of one Church over an above any other.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John