Very clever and well done.

deleted post. changed my mind.

That was quick  ahh shucks

Well, I think I figured it out right after I asked the question (if you read it).

I asked about the dove pointing down...then figured out it was "descending". I don't know if that's the official answer (haven't watched the video yet), but it works for me.

For whatever it's worth, this Baptist likes the new look.

the new design is well done

all my relations indeed :3

Kimmio is part mongoose and gets paid for her speed :3

wow, fabulous, critical change.....

*** round of applause**

ahahaha! right.

The crest does look good. I never paid a whole lot of attention to it before, but it does look good now.

I think the changes succeed in depicting or embodying the actual diversity of the church in visual terms. As well they represent an esthetic improvement that adds visual impact to what was heretofore a visually staid and unexciting symbol. It is more modern and it better represents the excitement of what we want to be as well as of what we already are.  In marketing terms it is improves the "brand".

That's my understanding of the symbol. The dove is the sign of the Holy Spirit.

Overall, it's an improvement and it's good that there's a rationale and symbolism behind the change that is being clearly spelled out. My eyes are still getting used to the colour mix, though. They are rather used to the older, less colourful version.

A  from me, FWIW (given that I'm not UCCan at the moment).

Mendalla

Took me a minute to figure out FWIW. I'm slow on the uptake.

I really like it - incorporates the 4 colours of the Medicine Wheel.

I like everything about it except the white dove on the white background.  I understand the symbolism, but when I first looked at it, I thought of a child's colouring book.  He's almost done the picture and doing an excellent job when suddenly he gets called away and doesn't get the top section finished.  I can't think of any way to fix it.  The dove belongs where it has always been - on top.  And white is the traditional colour.  I'll get used to it.

we are about to hear the presentation.  I am waiting to be sold on it--starting out from a skeptical viewpoint as it reeks of tokenism.

I have been wondering if iwe are including the First Nations focus because of the residential schools debacle. And I have been wondering about the choice of First Language ... which one have we settled on, and why?

Have been reluctant to voice these thoughts on this thread ... they are certain to be politically incorrect. 

heard the presentation last week at TC. It's not tokenism. It makes a lot of sense.

DKS,

Can you explain why it makes sense?

If you review  the hisotry of the Basis of Union, you will find that the First Nations congregations had no voice in Union. Their voice was voted by the methodist Church. Unlike other congregations, they were not given their voice. Part of this is an acknowledgement of their important and faithful role in our own formation as a church.

The change from the blue background to the four colours, is a signifciant acknowledgement of First Nations spirituality and understanding of the creator.

The use of Mohawk on the crest is an acknowledgement that the first evangelism was by the Methodist Church at Grape Island, Ontario, to the Mohawk nation... not Ojibway or Cree but Mohawk. It is an inclusive gesture and one which we were told was in full agreement with our First Nations congregations.

Thanks for taking the time to write that DKS.  I agree, well done on many levels.

How are you all going to explain to the Sunday School kids that even though you want them to become Christians, your denomination has also embraced First Nations spirituality?

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

i'd think that it takes a few years (adult?) before the kids become bigoted enough to start hating their own bodies, their natural functions, and homosexuals...

so the only people who would mind, i think, are the adults who want their self-loathing and hatred protected by some law or other *waggles eyebrows*

i'm fascinated to see how different people and the various groups that they form take the ancient sayings of alien cultures, of Judaism and the faiths that went before it, and then decide to call it 'Christianity'...human beings are amazing creatures...

Because a) the children are Christians and b) so are the First Nations who are a part of the United Church. Them is Us.

Is it any different from Christianity incorporating the African spirituality that underlies gospel music and some other aspects of Southern US Christianity? Or how Christmas and Easter both incorporate elements from pre-existing traditions? Christianity's success is at least partly due to how it has managed to incorporate and accomodate existing traditions as it has expanded into new communities and cultures. Only the most fundamentalist of Christians who seem to think that their version of Christianity is Biblically pure as the driven snow (which is impossible at this point in history) would deny this fact. The UCCan accepting and embracing First Nations spirituality is quite in keeping with this history.

Mendalla

Perhaps we should ask one of our former Moderators, Stan McKay, how he reconciled his spirituality with his Christian faith?   I don't think it was a problem. 

If wwe believe in One God, the spirit that blows through the native peoples must be the same spirit that blows through the Christian church.  One God, one Spirit.

Nor for my colleagues The Rev. Dr. Alf Dumont, nor distinguished Leading Elder The Rev. Murray Whetung (both of whom would prefer to be called Alf and Murray, respectively). Both men of deep Christian faith and commitment.

DKS, The First Nations members of the UCCanada may well be Christians. However, traditional First Nation spirituality, which is what I believe the UCCanada is honoring on the new crest design, is not. So...?

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

Mendalla, There is a difference between on one hand adapting and then incorporating cultural elements into Christianity so as to further the faith -- this is especially important in world evangelism, and on the other hand simply striving to honor another type of spirituality.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

seeler, Do you believe there is only one spiritual being?

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

Yes, Jae, I do.  It's called monotheism.  To the best of my knowledge Christianity is a monotheistic religion.  One God, many forms.  We celebrate that this Sunday - Trinity Sunday.

seeler, I didn't ask if you believe there is only one God. I asked if you believe there is only one spiritual being. There is a difference. Do you believe in angels, demons, and/or Satan?

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

Jae,as seeler says -One God-many names.many forms

No angels, no devil, demons, or Satan. My personal opinion.

 I believe the changes in the crest represent the fact that our churches are built on First Nations land.

Howevr I do not believ that we were taught in Sunday Schools, the idea that there is only one way to God. There are other Christian groups that say the same thing.   This is well known, and I do not understand why you do not see this issue as just a different way of being Christian.'

MC JAE, that's like asking, how do we expect our children to become Christian when our months and all the days our week are named after Norse, Greek, and Roman gods. First Nations spiritual traditions are part of our spiritual culture. I agree with what DKS said...them is us.

Good reply Mahakala. I'll have to really think about that one.

In what ways do you see that as being true? Please be specific.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

My point is that because aboriginal Christians are part of the United Church and havce been since the beginning, their culture and spiritual traditions are part of the denominations collective history, culture, and traditions - or should be if we open ourselves to it. There is no reason in the world we should just embrace Roman and Northern European culture and pre-Christian spiritual traditions as the only right way to be Christian in the 21st century. Christians have always learned to express themselves in the a culture in which they are gound eventually.

crazyheart, You have an interesting perspective that I do not share. You say you believe in God but not in other spiritual beings. From where does your belief in God come from? Is it a matter of personal experience alone? Personally my final authority on all matters of Christian faith and practice comes from the Bible. It contains numerous mentions of angels, demons, and Satan. How do you interpret those using your hermeneutics?

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

I agree with you to a point Mahakala. I think it's wonderful to adapt cultural practices from other people groups into the Christian religion. Such cultural traditions could include things like style of music used, methods of praying, type of building (or not) to meet in, amount of enthusiasm encouraged in the worship service, choice of following a liturgy or not, that kind of thing.

Where we disagree is on the issue of the integration of spiritual traditions. You see it in a good light. I see it akin to building two golden calves to bow down to while worshipping Yahweh at the same time. I think it's not really such a good idea.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

McJae,

I see it kind of like this: If Jesus way is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and (as far as what Christianity teaches) noone goes to the father but through Jesus...Jesus' Way (compassionate justice), is the path, but there are many doors "through him".

Let me think...how to visualise it.. I would think of a stadium which reperesents Jesus, all the people contained in it are "the Kingdom of God", and there are several doors/ gates on all sides of it representing different traditions all leading to the same common ground...and in the stadium we have all kinds of different events and activities borrowed from the different tradtions....now, I've kind of made it sound like the Olympic opening ceremonies...but you get the idea...actually, that's not a bad analogy.

But you see, Jae , that is the great thing for me, I am under no obligation to explain. For me, it is what it it. How you see God and the other spirits as you call them, is entirely up to you.

Love the new crest ... appreciation to all who participated in its thoughtful design. 

My own church has First Nation's roots ... here's a bit of history copied from our church website ...

In the early 1800s, the Mississauga Ojibwa tribe inhabited the area along the banks of the Credit River. Peter Jones, their chief, became a Methodist minister in 1823. In addition to being a circuit rider preacher, Jones was an eloquent advocate for native land rights, in Canada and Britain. Peter Street in Port Credit honours Peter Jones.

Egerton Ryerson, a Methodist missionary, joined Jones in 1825. Ryerson set about raising funds from his contacts, and in 1826 erected a log mission house to serve as a church and school for the First Nations people. Port Credit had its first Methodist Church, on the site of the present Mississauga Golf Club.

By 1838, an influx of British immigrants and Loyalists from the USA had settled in the area and a new church was needed. The property at 151 Lakeshore Road West was deeded to the church, and by May 1849 a building was in place, with seating for 200.

Yes, I agree that you have no obligation crazyheart. I had thought that you might welcome the invitation, especially considering that you freely chose to enter into a dialogue that I was having with others, however I fully acknowledge your freedom to not accept.

Rich blessings.

---

MC jae

ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT IS ONLY ONE ON ONE CONVERSATIONS HERE AND NO ONE ELSE IS ALLOWED IN?

sorry to shout and sorry to derail.

There is a petition arising at Hamilton Conference, from Bruce Presbytery, that is asking GC to consider adding the symbol of the Evangelical United Brethren Church to the new church crest as well.  Any thoughts about this?

What is their symbol redbaron?