I scanned Bibby's book very quickly. It seems well worth reading more carefully.

Lots of interesting and useful statistics, as we should expect.

A bit of a challenge to "conventional wisdom" wrt growth and decline in religion in Canada.

The significance of immigration is worth noting. (Hardly surprising for a nation of immigrants!)

His table "Religious Identification: 1871-2009" (p. 35) seems quite striking:

Allahu humanity

Allahu Allah

Allahu G_d

It also points out the utter and complete failure of mainline churches to engage youth ministry in the last thirty years. Bibby correctly points out that while mainline churches were walking away from Sunday Schools and Christian education, both the Roman Catholic Church and Evangelicals were building schools (especially in Ontario where they were funded from the tax base) and encouraging youith ministry. In the case of the United Church, we spent our time fighting over sex... not that it was not worthwhile, just that it was where we spent our time and energy. BTW, in one of his earlier books he credits for mer Moderator Marion Best with that thought about the United Church.

Dr. Tom Long of Candler School of Theology, Emory University, Atlanta said at this year's Festival of Homiletics, "We come to church to get the vocabulary for the big moments in life."

I agree. And not that we have all the answers, but that we are prepared to engage for the journey. By our fighting and our divisivness (internally as well as ecumenically) we have shown the world otherwise. Time for change. Before it is too late, as Bibby suggests.

Finally, The Roman Cathoolics in Ontario are taking this message of Bibby's very, very seriously. Every bishop in Ontario has been sent a copy. The Christian and Missionary Alliance is send it to all their superintendents (bishops).

I believe this book should be read and considered seriously by every United Church congregation and minister. It's that important. It helped me look at my own ministry focus.  

One of the ways forward for us, which is coming to this GC, is this proposal,

GCE13 – REF PC PMM 18 2012 – Associate Relationships with Migrant Church Communities "

The Executive of the General Council proposes that:

the 41

st General Council 2012 approve the following definitions to be added to The Manual:

Associate Relationship

: identifies the framework of the covenanted relationship by Mutual Agreement/Understanding between the General Council of The United Church of Canada and a denomination, external to Canada, associated with the World Methodist Council, the World Communion of Reformed Churches or a partner denomination through the global partnership program of The United Church of Canada.

Associate Membership

: identifies a covenanted relationship between The United Church of Canada and a migrant community congregation or ministry under the "Associated Relationship" category, seeking to be in relationship with The United Church of Canada. Associate Membership status may also, in exceptional circumstances, be established with individual migrant congregations. Policies and Guidelines for establishing Associate Membership agreements will be determined from time to time by the Executive of General Council.

Ministry Personnel (Associate Relationship

identifies individuals who are in formal ministry leadership in Associate Relationship congregations or ministries. This recognition will be separate from formal processes of admission; will include full membership in the presbytery in which the Associate Congregation is located; be dependent upon assignment as ministry personnel of the Associate Congregation or ministry, and other terms as from time to time adopted by the Executive of the General Council.

This may well be the salvation of the United Church.

Hi DKS,

Early in the book Reg says he has it figured out this time.

He has lots of graphs, I especially like the target graphs. Being from the evangelical group myself that is growing, I will say that Reg has missed the mark entirely.

None of his graphs show what should be at the center of the target.

That is a presumption which goes without saying. It's about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. And yes, Reg brings The Message in very early on. Like about page 3 of the document and p.15 of the actual pdf. You are also free to disagree. But at least say why. Evangelicals have not always succeeded, either.

Hi DKS,

That is the point - churches where it goes without saying are in decline.

DKS brings up the issue of separate schools and (if this is what he is saying), I would definitely agree that being able to maintain such a system has given the RC's a certain survivability. I've taught in that system, and the incentive to be connected to the faith is sometimes significant. At one point, I was within 2 hours of becoming catholic had a different offer not arrived and if I wanted to continue my employment. But beyond that, the separate schools gives one contact with one's denomination that is more than just a sometimes Sunday thing. Since Sunday has become the only point of contact with most mainline Protestants, church has become an increasingly disposable thing.

That being said, mainline churches are in no way able or inclined to get into the education business. They will have to find another way to make themselves meaningful - not that their message isn't. I think a lot of this has come down to the fact that making the change we need has been delegated to individual congregrations, who in turn generally do not have the resources, collective imagination or critical mass to effect changes in their congregations. Yet that is where the change has to happen: locally. The incentive to do things the way they were always done is overwhelming. Which is why I have argued here in wc in the past that for the most part, some kind of cross-congregational effort is the only thing that will pull together enough creative people that can restructure how we "do" faith and how to connect with those whom we aren't connecting with now.

All i see that people born in Canada see religion as a lot less desirable. While those who immigrate to Canada continue to belong to a religion. Howver the children of these immigrants who are born in Canada leave there churches.

One thing i have notcied is the large number of People raised Catholic and in conservative Protestant churches end up outside religion, or join progressive Anglican Churches, or United ( progressive relative to other UCC and Anglican) my congregation has a majority of membrs who grew up in other churches for example.

And please refrain from denomination bashing. You are stating the obvious, as Bibby shows us. The reasons are many and varied. Your reasons are not among those Bibby gives credence to.

You are right. I went back and searched out "secularization" and though he had identified mainline churches as the ones sucumbing to secularization.  That is what I thought the numbers suggested.

Bibby's material has been added to the United Church's Facebook page and to the pre-GC documents for commissioners to read.

Here is the blog post I just wrote (http://followingfrodo.blogspot.ca/2012/08/book-8-of-2012-new-day.html):

Holidays means time for reading. Today I read "A New Day", a free book by Canadian sociologist Reg Bibby. Much of Bibby's career has been spent looking at issues around religion in Canada. I am going to suggest this as a book study/discussion this fall. (At first I was going to suggest that with Council but I think a wider audience would be good). The book is a quick read--the whole .pdf file is only 76 pages and that includes cover and table of contents and copywright page etc. You can download a copy here.

Bibby starts off by saying that all those who forecast the death of religion in Canada were wrong.  Religion is not dying.  Nor is it likely to die any time soon.

But the landscape has changed.  And so the book helps explain how the landscape has changed, and how faith communities could react to those changes.

Good book.  Easy read.  And free.  What else can one say?

Thank g_odness there are people like Bibby who spend their effort and precious life at discerning important things like this -- now the rest of us can argue empirically instead of just flinging opinions aboot :3