ouch,custard.

I am sorry for all engaged.  Like a divorce, this didn't happen over night, but, tough for everyone.

I am sure there are those who will post regarding polity and methods; however, let me offer my condolences.

I see you are United Church of Canada and are lookign specifically for feedback on the mechanics,

Hi Custard. This is very painful. Presbytery plays a big part in this , I believe. Someone , in the know will have  some advice.

Welcome. Hopefully this is not going to be a surprise for the minister. Hopefully the minister has had good communication with the M&P committee and is aware of issues.

I would think someone would have to be pretty dense not to realize there are issues but I suspect like any job dispute, you need to have documentation to back up the decision.

I expect some of our ministers who post will have some answers for you.

I doubt you can go this route though without enlisting presbytery. I would expect that if the Board , in consultation with Presbytery , has decided this , that it would be the Chair of your Board plus the chair of M&P plus the presbytery person to discuss it .

I do know of a congregation my aunt was a member of that had tremendous problems. Some of the congregation and particularly the people with positions in the church wanted the minister out , about half of the congregation supported him. Presbytery did remove him but at least half the congregation left too and within a Few years the congregation folded. It can be a real issue

Thanks for your responses. Presbertry is involved. Lastpointe sorry to hear about your aunt's church. This sounds like a very similar situation unfortunately.

custard - it can also be a cleansing, renewing process.  I am aware of a congregation that had real problems with their minister over a period of years.  And yes, Presbytery was involved.  Eventually he resigned (either by request or of his own accord - he immediately switched to another denomination where he was re-baptized and welcomed). 

Yes, some of the congregation followed him - mainly those who had joined durng his tenure.  But others who had been worshipping elsewhere returned.  And those who had stuck it out (I've been in this church for fifty years and I'm not letting him push me out).    With the support of Presbytery and other UCC congregations in the area this big beautiful church is revitalized. 

There was hurt - but not as much as there would have been if the situation had been allowed to continue. 

I wish your congregation all the best as you work your way through this difficulty.

custard - quite a few years ago our congregation underwent a 363 Review and our minister was "let go" - Presbytery and Conference were involved.  It was a very painful process, and the pain continued (as many families left at the time) for many years.

I hope what you are going through goes better . . . there will be pain, there will be discord, there will be challenges, there will be conflict.  But, there can also be Hope . . . Hope that things will end up where and the way they are supposed to be.  Be kind to one another in your congregation, be kind to this minister and this family, and work through as best as you can what will follow.

We have come a long way . . . we lost much through the process we went through, but we also gained - in finding out who we were and becoming what we are today.

It is difficult now for you, but hopefully things will work out for all of you.

My UU fellowship lost a minister several years ago now. It was a divisive period and those divisions are likely what drove her out. Some mourned but kept going (me among them as I was a strong supporter of this minister), some left (and have largely not returned even years later), some said "good riddance" (not in so many words, but you get the point). We needed three years of interim ministry to get things settled to the point where we felt comfortable putting in a settled minister. That new settled minister is now in his third year and things are going well so far so, yes, there is hope but you may need some time and help to get there.

And we don't have a Presbytery to help us along or guide the decision-making, either. Our continental association (the Unitarian Universalist Association) provides  assistance with ministerial transition and settlement but congregations hold ultimate responsibility for all the decisions.

Mendalla

Our church went through periods of bad behavior and in my mind seriously broke covenant with one. Many people left, primarily those in the decade before me who were my peers

Out of that we were put into intentional interim ministry

The sad point is the same group tried to fire our interim minister

Sad but true and dang are they good at polity and process and innuendos and metrics

Realistic evaluation of their own offerings might have helped

I was thankful for a strong minister and presbytery

Thank-you all for your comments and in particular for the message of hope. Right now it is so very sad and incredibly painful for all involved. 

In my Mom's UCCanada in rural NB, an issue came up concerning one of their past ministers. Somehow Presbytery was brought in, and following a number of meetings they called, involving members, adherents, the Presbytery and the minister, the minister was either fired or else resigned (I'm not sure which).

In my Baptist church, if there was such an issue with one of our pastors, it would be up to we who are deacons to call members' meetings and a vote on keeping the pastor in question or not. I can't imagine ever doing that since our pastors are excellent.

Yes, including the minister no doubt. I will pray for your church. Rich blessings.

Was part of a congregation that split along theological lines. It was a very painful experience for many of us.  As far as I know, there was never any attempt to involve Presbytery in what was happening. 

Custard, I know this is not exactly your situation but I wanted to say that I understand the pain you and others must be experiencing. 

Custard, if you can try to live in the grey, to see the "truths" in other stories, to be the clarifier, to help keep bridges and stop isolation / camps, it would be good.

It sounds like that is where you are, looking at  the system rather than blaming.

I hope it goes well.

Custard, I prayed for your church on my way into work today. I believe that God loves your church and has a good plan for it.

Hello Custard and welcomd to WonderCafe.ca,

Requests to end pastoral relationships are almost always granted.  I have no recollection of any being halted by action of Presbytery save for a few.  And those few were because the Congregation had acted appropriately in ending the pastoral relationship and if that action had not been stopped a wrongful dismissal suit would have happened.

In order to end the pastoral relationship the congregation has two avenues. 

One is dismissal with cause.  This usually takes responsibility away from the congregation if the reason is disciplinary.  If Presbytery or conference removes a minister for disciplinary reasons they will infomr the minister.

The other anvenue is dismissal without cause and there is a right way and a wrong way to do this.

The right way is for the Pastoral Charge to properly call a meeting for the express purpose of testing the congregational will for continuing the pastoral relationship.  Representatives from Presbytery will be there and the minister has the right to be present for this meeting or at least have an advocate present.  The vote is usually a secret ballot.  The results are read and and the decision is made.  If the minister is present he doesn't need to be formally informed.  If the minister is not present but his advocate is he does not need to be formally informed.

The wrong way would be for an improperly called meeting to happen to determine that the minister have their pastoral relationship terminated immediately.  This opens the congregation up to a wrongful dismissal lawsuit and does not obligate the minister to actually leave the pastoral relationship.

Depends on what has actually happened.

If the removal is disciplinary there is hope provided the means of reconcilliation are followed and those means will vary from case to case.

If the removal is properly without cause there will be some hard feelings that need to be addressed by all parties involved.

If the removal is done improperly it will be a mess and more energy and effort to make things right or better.

No one minister, no matter how competent or beloved can be removed from a congregation and have it destroy the congregation.  Or the minister.  It can be extremely painful emotionally for both members and ministers.  There is always hope for healing.  Though healing may need to take some time.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I'm a member of a church that was started by a 363. Presbytery decided that the wants of the 2 groups were so different that they disbanded the congregation and started 2 new ones.

RevJohn,
If the congregation votes the right way what majority would they have to have, and what would happen next? We have a tendency in our congregation towards that, but I heard "the minister would sue us and we would go broke over it".

Hi mrs.anteater,

A simple majority of 50% + 1 is all it would take for the pastoral relationship to be dissolved.

Only full members are permitted to vote on this matter.  Adherents can speak to the issue but they cannot vote.

As to what happens next.  Both the Clergy and the Presbytery are notified in writing of the outcome of the vote.  Representatives for each must be present at the meeting and both will take that information back there still needs to be a record in writing of the communication.

The congregation then enters into conversation with the out-going clergy about the terms.  The terms can range anywhere from 90 days business as usual to immediate cessation of all work and pastoral presence with 90 day salary package as per usual or in a lump sum.

Wrongful dismissal only applies if the pastoral charge or the Presbytery actually contravene the polity of the denomination.  Anything done properly, no matter how heartbreaking or disappointing does not constitute wrongful dismissal.

Grace and peace to you.

John