I talk about my UU'ism if it's relevant. Most of my co-workers know that I go to a church near the office and that's about all they know unless they ask for more information. Our marketing coordinator knows more because I tried to get them to hire her husband to redo the church website (ended up being too expensive for them).

When it's relevant or if I'm asked, I talk about what UU'ism is and how it compares to other churches. That said, we aren't a particularly missionary religion (though maybe we should do more of that kind of outreach).

Mendalla

Well, I spread the "Gospel of Arminius"—but only to those who want to hear it.

When we are baking bread the room fills with fragrance. If someone asks what's cooking we should be glad to say. Even better, we should  invite the curious to sit down and have a slice. If the recipe is well prepared, appreciation should follow. Maybe even a request for the recipe.

I do not think we should be pushing recipes where they are not being solicited. Better to bring bread.

Let your light so shine trumps flapping your gums as I see it.

Practicing christianity isn't like baking bread in your kitchen - it's like sacrificing rodents in your basement. Do it quietly and no one will notice or care. Start asking people to join you one Sunday morning and watch most of them scatter.

All we talk about in Saskatchewan is the weather and the Roughriders. It is tough to work spreading  the gospel in these conversations.

Will you explain for us how Vanier's practice of Christianity equates to your metaphor, "sacrificing rodents" rather than my metaphor, "baking bread"?

That's not practicing faith. Don't confuse practicing faith with being a good person.

The fact is that if you had a killer recipe for bread or anything else, people will indeed ask for a recipe or to see how you do it. Religion isn't like that. Not anymore. People are distrusting and wary of religion, for good reasons. These days, if you're a happy, together person, anyone taking notice will ask you what you've done with your diet and/or exercise routine - no one is going to think that it comes down to attending church. That's where your metaphor fails, because almost no one who doesn't already have a church is interested in sharing an imaginary friend with you. That level of interest would be closer to the expected interest in a personal subterranean mouse abattoir than the expected interest in your place of worship.

Sorry - this a person just like you and me who acts out of his core convictions. In other words he lives what he believes. Can you demonstrate the contrary for us?

Jesus told his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel. I believe there is value in that as well for we who are Christ-followers today. I really enjoy handing out tracks, providing people the opportunity to read of the God-story.

rich blessings.

In this post Jae you omit the fact that many of the people you are handing out scrap paper to are already aware of what you call the God-story.  Some of them used to attend a congregation.  Some of them have been criticised, or ignored, or taught that they aren't 'worthy' in some fashion and  quit church altogether.   They all know what they need to do to rejoin a congregation and they aren't interested.

Grace is the fullness of life (I think).  It is recognising the great gift we already have and celebrating it in all its forms.  We tend to use the word Grace to express the joy we feel when we slow down and realise all over again that we already have what we need. Food, water and love.

I think it is important to spread the gospel, yes, but I think alot of people spread it by telling a non believer the first thing they have to do is accept Christ as their lord and saviour. For someone that is not familiar with Christs teachings, why would they do this right off the bat? So I'm curious as to how one should approach this? Do we wait for an opening or create one? And what is the best way to start the invitation to know about the gospels for someone that knows very little about Jesus' teachings?

It is difficult to (sell) Jesus in an affluent country. As Kay says, I have food, water and love. People who are comfortable have no idea they need Jesus. You have a failing church that no longer believes you need Jesus. You first have to show people they have a sickness before you offer them the cure.

I think it is great that some churches have no desire to evangelize. They have nothing life changing to offer anyways. As they slowly fade and their delapidated churches need to be sold, thriving Christian communities that meet in theatres will be able to pick up the land for a song that is already zoned for a church. Knock down the building and put up something that is better suited to serve the community.

Watered down, fake churches that really believe nothing need to die off completely. It's happening, and it's a good thing.

I want to take this a little farther, without drifting to far from the opening comments. With this in mind let me paste a definition of "gospel":

I offer this to make clear that there is no necessary connection between the word "gospel" proper and the common understanding of "Gospel" as equivalent to Christian religion.

My resort to the fragrance of baking bread metaphor, for sharing the"gospel", includes no suggestion that I advocate the promotion of Christian religion.

What I intend to say is that each of us expresses our character in and through all our relations. We are known in our families, among our friends and in our neighbourhoods. Some of us are know as transmitters of a "good message".

As transmitters of our "good message" we make use of every available opportunity and resource. Cookies carried to the home of a sick friend is an expression of "good message" from my point of view. A book on grief given to a person bereaved is an expression of "good message". You will be able to provide countless examples from your own experience.

The matter of motive comes into view. Why is it that we transmit our "good message"? Above chansen makes an assumption about my resort to a metaphor.

Where I intend only to indicate that our character attends us in all our relations, he takes it that I am speaking of drawing others to the Christian religion. I am not and have not been for a very long time. It follows from this that I have no interest in drawing people to any of the diverse institutions of Christian religion.

Why do I persist in the transmission of my "good news"? My primary motive consists in the cultivation and propagation of critical consciousness.

We live in dangerous times. Passive conformity to the norms and standards of sacred or secular religion presents a great hindrance to our survival as a species on the planet. Inspired, informed and encouraged by voices ancient and contemporary, I am dedicated to differentiating between what hinders and what helps.

Here is a "good news" transmission that I value highly:

This is exactly what Christianity does. It's Marketing 101 - create a need in the marketplace, then fill that need.

People have problems. Convince them that they are horrible, sinful people, then make them an amazing offer of salvation! Warn them of what happens if they don't accept! There is, after all, a sucker born every minute.

Except, we're not all suckers any more. We're getting wise to the game.

"The only reason the Protestants and Catholics have given up the idea of univeral domination is because they've realized they can't get away with it." W. H. Auden

As someone, somewhere, said:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."

If they truly believe nothing brother, then I would prefer to see them start to believe the Gospel over seeing them disband.

At the same time I think we need to exercise some caution -- just because they don't express saving faith in exactly the same way that we may choose to doesn't necessarily mean that they have none.

Rich blessings.

I find it a bit of a quandray, Crazyheart.  I want to share with those who are open to hear, but I don't want to force my religion upon them. 

I generally try to 'let my light so shine among people that they shall see my good works and glorify my father in heaven'.  In other words, I try to live my faith.  And if anyone asks or seems interested, I share with them.

"What are you plans for the weekend?" someone might ask at the bowling alley.

"Well, I'm going to be quite busy.  We're holding a seminar at our church all weekend.  We have an interesting speaker from .... talking about water.  I'm actually quite interested in what he has to say."

Depending upon their response, I might tell them more about it, or invite them to come along. 

Or I might mention hearing a music group at our Sunday morning worship and how much I enjoyed them.  Or, if invited to do something Wednesday morning, I will tell them I have to decline because that is the day I volunteer with our food distribution program.   Or whatever.

Only if they are interested do I go into theology or talking about what being a follower of the Way means to me. 

Perhaps I should do more. 

Here is a question no one has asked lately, that I've seen:

How many people have you recruited to your church?

That is, how many people at your church who are regular attendees and have been for at least a year, have you (personally) introduced to your church?

Second question: How many of those were non-religious before?

I sure hope they have better reasons now!

I have been intrigued by the new man in the new chair, to be sure. Having read "The Shoes of the Fisherman" many years ago, I am aware of the structural constraints by which he will be limited. Even so, it is persons who inspire me and I am trusting that Francis will offer many, inside the house and out, opportunity to take the call to justice in earnest.

Hard to argue with even even a small measure of humility. Thanks!

Abraham is counted, in the story we hear and tell, as righteous because he believes the word that comes. Not believes as an abstraction. Believes as a motive to change. He leaves the land of Ur, overun by idols, to seek a place promised. This opens a way and that way leads to newness. We may think of new wine and old wineskins.

Faith is best considered a verb, it stirs those who receive it to action. It is becomes an  idol the moment it is taken as a noun.

You're welcome  GeoFee.

Interesting thoughts, yet have you not used the pronoun of "it" in place of the word "faith" in your paragraph directly above, and would that not seem to suggest a belief on your part that "faith" is a noun.

Rich blessings. 

Thanks! How about "...best considered a verb stirring those who receive it to action...". Shucks! Now it sounds like a spoon.

Hi again. Started looking and found little to affirm my positing faith as a verb. Then found out about transitive verbs. Did not know what that meant. Dug some more and found this:

Link

Spoon on that sweet, sweet faith! 

Hummm... it sounds good. Can you use it in a sentence?

Hi chansen.

Is this a dumb question? Or, a question you prefer not to answer?

Not even chansen can think of a remark snappy enough to dismiss all of Vanier's excellent work.

Dang. Guess that's a check mate!

Thanks catching me in the error. I will try not to repeat it.

 (my first ever smiley)

You're welcome GeoFee.

GeoFee wrote:

 (my first ever smiley)

Now you're living the good life.

According to Merriam-Webster, the use of "faith" as a transitive verb is archaic. It meant the same thing as believe or trust. So I guess to use it in a sentence, one would use it in place of one of those two words.

"Many people faith that some wars are just."

"Husbands and wives should faith in each other."

Rich blessings.

Here are a few moments from this past Sunday. I think it is on topic. I added it near the end of our shared time in Church. It ties in nicely with the talk I gave earlier in the service. An audio file of that talk is posted on the "Religion and Faith" page as "Integrating and Expressing".

Hi crazyheart,

We are encouraged by scripture to share our faith.

So . . . .

Well, I note that for starters the text is pointing out the circumstances when folk ask us for the reason for the hope we have.

I wonder if there are two problems facing sharing the gospel.

1) We do not provide anyone with grounds to be interested in the hope we have so they never ask about it and . . .

2) We do not wait until others ask we insist on giving reasons for a hope nobody is much interested in.

Each of us have something we find valuable.  I, for example, am very happy with my Mazda 2

http://incar-pictures.blogspot.ca/2011/06/2011-mazda-2.html

it isn't a diesel as is discussed in the blog and I am not the author of the blog.  I chose to link the blog because it has a fabulous photo of the Mazda 2 in spirited green.  Which is the colour I chose.

The colour gets noticed and people ask and that gives me an opportunity to mention the name and see how they react.  Short jump from spirited green to what other colour would a minister pick for their car.  Admittedly it is rare that my personal vehicle becomes an opportunity to be an evangelical tool.

Most conversations end with, "I really like the colour."

But note that though I invite them to have another discussion they are comfortable sticking with the one that started and I never cut the conversation short just because it didn't go the way I wanted and I never force them to have a conversation they don't want.

I think that reflects strongly the whole gentleness and respect bit.

What people come away from the conversation is typically that a) they saw a cute car in a great colour b) the guy driving it was a minister and c) he was very cheerful.

In terms of evangelical pluses a) is a wash cute cars in great colours don't save souls (perhaps soles but I digress).  My being a minister and a cheerful is a plus much more than if I was a minister who was a jerk.

In a small community I might bump into that person a few times and if I continue to reinforce that I'm not a jerk (helps if you can remember them from the last time you talked with or to them) then there is a possibility that should that individual ever feel that they need the services of a minister, they know one they can talk to and who listens.  Granted, that can take a big investment of time.

There are moments when faith can be introduced into conversations.  I am wary of doing that in a predatory fashion.  For example, I talk to a lot of people in cemeteries about their faith.  I don't start the conversations, they seem to think that since I have just buried a family member and I am a minister that I am also the person they should be confessing their failings in the faith department to.

I listen.

Only when they ask me what I think about their confession will I offer an opinion.

If I treated these moments as opportunites to lecture on the four spiritual laws I am taking advantage of their weakness and vulnerability and they aren't interested in what I hope they are being pummeled by me preying on their fear.

Depending on the circumstance the conversation can move along way in short order.  Make a mistake and the result is someone moving a long way away in short order.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi John, and all...

We earn a reputation on one side of the coin or the other, as you indicate. Strange as it may sound, focus on personal growth and development in the hope we share is a primary task. Progress along this way will bring benefits in and through all our relations. This implies a community which is present to us as encouragers and supporters of such growth.

How easily we talk about things we have near the core of our value structures. For example: The majority of adult males in congregations I have experienced are comfortable and even exuberant discussing the standing and hopes of a favoured professional athletic team. These same men are often tongue tied when asked about their reasons for attending Church on Sunday and serving that Church through its administrative structures.

I have been appreciating your various posts in the past while. Though I do not share all your convictions, I much value your clear articulation of them.

George

Hi GeoFee,

I think this is a key component to this thread.

Sports is the first layer.  It allows me to see just how much give and take is present in the relationship.

For example not everybody is on the same page regarding each sport and not everybody is on the same page regarding each team.  Those differences allow us to a) challenge one another on a matter of minimal import and b) joke around at the others expense.

The degree to which we can "eat it up" and "dish it out" not to mention the manner in which we do "dish it out" communicates whether or not the individual engaged can be trusted with something deeper.

Individuals diving headlong into uncharted waters eventually meet with tragedy.

Relationships start out as uncharted waters, the surface might look inviting but who knows what lurks in the depths and how can you even begin to know how deep a pool might be until you ease your way in?

If it isn't sports, it is cars, or bikes, or hunting or fishing or wood-working or investing or gardening.  Prove yourself on this level and you may be trusted to go deeper.

The beauty is that we aren't required to share each other's convictions, we only need to allow convictions to share space.  That, I think, more than anything else allows relationship to progress deeper.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Must be in a city in Saskatchewan...I'm pretty sure the farmers have been out spreading a variety of other stuff these days...

I spent some years with a charismatic fellowship in Winnipeg. Speaking in tongues was a key concept. I could not quite buy into the "glossolalia" (sp?). So I tried to find my way into the relevant texts. Finally came up with something I can work with.

Just as you indicate, each relationship presents a different script. Mechanics talk mechanic talk, Lawyers talk lawyer talk. And etc. I have been gifted with a quick intuition, which some scientists describe as "left brain" function. It means I can get on the wave length of a broad diversity of persons met along the way. Listening to the manner of speech, I discover within the vocabulary and symbol set metaphors by which I gain access to the met person's confidence zone.

I have just come in from some errands. First stop, supermarket. In the checkout line I met a young mum and child. They were making faces and giggling together. Watched for a moment and then interjected: "Looks like two children at work here." Earned me a big smile from both mum and child. Cashier and other customers looking on, notice. At some level an impression is made. Over the years, store personel have learned I am open, cheerful and  approachable.

Next stop the bank. Walking through the door I was greeted with "Good morning Mr. Feenstra". They know me and they know about me; what I stand for. This from conversations with tellers and also managers. They know how much I appreciate them as persons. They also know my suspicions and concerns about the totalising structures of the economy represented by the computer which controls all of their functions as employees of a Canadian economic corporation.

The main task on my side is to be clear of the distinction between the person and the system that demands compliance from them as well as from me. All in the hope of quickening the spark of critical consciousness. Once that spark is ignited all things become possible.

Outside the bank two persons I know. It is just before ten and they are already well on the way to being drunk. I know them from the soup kitchen where I serve. So we chat a while. They would like some coin to get them started on the next bottle of poison. Tomorrow they will come for soup. I suggest that when they wake up they hold off on the drinking until after they have come for soup, telling them that it will taste so much better. They smile their broken tooth smiles. We all know it is not likely to happen. But.... maybe...? God knows.

Crossing the street I see two friends from a small community of creative anarchists who  live on a small piece of land just outside the city. "Hey, Athena, I call across the intersection. "Hey George" she responds. She goes on to tell me that the latest issue of her "zine" is ready for printing. "You are in it she says", promising to send me a copy by e-mail.

Not many years ago, I realized that just about everything Jesus accomplishes happens at the intersection of lives in the common round the Palestinian cities and countryside. Brief momentary encounters where persons excluded by social convention are included by the gracious gift of recognition and affirmation. A profoundly simple strategy, which some of us maintain as the effective means to shifting the trajectory of a personal and a corporate fate.

I have earned a reputation in every city where Barbara and I have lived. People we meet tell stories about the meeting. I am well know as a "real character' likely to appear on the front page of the local paper sporting a clown nose and making some statement about our obligation to include the broken poor in the benefits of our mutual labours.

Something about the foolishness of God no doubt.

But, the laundry is finished it cycle and requires folding.

You are so right, It was a long winter for them.

Just a bit more about how we can share what we find in the way of God with our friends and neighbours.

My partner, Barbara, is the Dean of Nursing at Thompson Rivers University. This morning she told her colleagues about what she experienced in Church on Sunday morning. One of those colleagues is the Dean of Science. He asked if he could have a link to my example story about Bohemian Waxwings in our backyard.

So I used Windows Movie Maker software to produce a short video which I could share. I will also post it to my Facebook page. This is one more way of getting the things we care about out of the Church and into the world around us.

I have a question about Luke 10:1-23

This passage sends out 70 (72) evangelists to the cities and Jesus doesn't want them to greet anyone along the way or take provisions. They are sent out to speak to the gentiles and they are sent as lambs to the wolves. They are not to go door to door but stay at one house and speak out in public. Earlier Jesus sent the 12 out also.

Now we tend to think of evangelizing as a "personal evangelizing", should we also be doing something with these instructions of Jesus? Is there the same urgency to proclaim the gospel today?

That's interesting to think about Waterfall.  Suppose you are paired up with someone, each given a one-way bus ticket to a Canadian city where you have never been before, where you know no one, and which you know little about.  (ie my partner and I are sent to MooseJaw; you and your partner to Miramichi).   We arrive with no money, no provisions - just the clothes on our backs.  Our mission is that we are to bring a new version of the gospel to the people there.  And a restriction is - wherever we stay the first night is where we must stay for the duration of our mission. 

Miramichi, that would be lovely! Hopefully the house that we'd stay in would serve lobster.

The plan somewhat reminds me of the Jehovahs Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists. Acts 5:41.

Could you imagine UCC, Anglicans or Presbyterians starting to show up at peoples doors? It sounds too rediculous to comtemplate, but is this something that is missing from churches? Or should this remain in the past?

Once I heard an interview on CBC radio with a UC minister.  She was young, I think this was her first job after her training.  It didn't take long to realise that the congregation was very small.  She wondered "Where are the people who need to be here, in the church?"  She walked the neighborhood, knocking on doors, starting conversations in stores, inviting people to church.  In the process she fond many people who had been damaged by misguided Christians, people who were struggling with life problems of various types etc. Her congregation grew.

What would I do if sent with a partner to bring gospel in a strange city or town? 

 I think first I would call upon a church, ask if I could see the minister, tell her my mission and see if (1) she would be willing to allow me to speak in that church, and (2) offer me some accommodation. 

I would probably continue to try the churches - but if I had no success, especially in being offered some type of accommodation, I would start thinking of our physical needs.  We would be hungry.  Ask around, is there a soup kitchen or any place where we could get free food?   As the day wore on, I would ask about/look for a shelter - some place that would provide a bed for the night - keeping in mind that if I stay there one night I have to remain there for the duration of my mission. 

Then I would try to find someone to talk to about the gospel, the good news I wanted to share.  Probably I would start by talking to individuals.  If I found one or two to be receptive, I would ask them if they knew anybody else that they could invite in to our talks.  Hopefully, if I truly had good news to share and I was an interesting speaker, and if my way of life reflected my deeply held convictions, and if I showed love and compassion for those I came into contact with, I might be able to establish a group.  In the meantime, I would continue to try to find a church in which I could share my passion.   I think that the early disciples always tried to find a synagogue or group of believers, as did Paul.

I had Jehovahs Witnesses come to my door yesterday. We had a nice chat. Their opening line was something like this: "Isn't the world in an awful mess?" (of course after the usual pleasantries of "How are you today, my name is.....")

I feel that if I am going to ask someone to read my stuff and listen to me with an open mind then I should be prepared to read someone else's stuff and listen to them with an open mind.

That is a very important reason I participate in this discussion forum.

It would seem rather hypocritical to hand out tracts on a street corner and then turn away someone from your door trying to do the same thing.

Just my thoughts....

Rita

Sorry, been all over the province and doing research and work and, and, and. I've had no time for long replies, like the ones George deserves from me in a couple of threads. I'll get there.

I am also going to be well occupied for the next while. We have just accepted an offer on our home. We will know Friday. Then things start moving in earnest.

I am happy for the conversation. It presses me to question and rethink. On Sunday, yes in church, I talked about the atheist challenge and its meaning for us.

My basic hope consists in our common journey towards an improvement of things as they are in our society and our world. I have no big issues about what road any particular person may travel.

If I drop out, be assured I will return once settled in our destination... Winterpeg. I can feel the brrrrr coming on.

I think you have this quite right. I love when the folk come two by two to the door. Always try to get them in to the table so we can talk over tea. These folk are very well trained in the scripture. Speaking with them offers opportunity for testing my own resources. I can hold my own just about all of the time. One thing is key for me. When the folk walk away they have had an experience with a kind, intelligent person, who is just as keen about making the world a better place as they are.

I specially enjoy the young men sent round by the Adventists. These fellows are bright, cheerful, knowledgable and, best of all, ready to get involved persosnally with me. They have mown my lawn, shovelled my walk and in other ways proven themselves ready to be "servants' in the neighbourhood.

There is one basic point of disagreement between the two by two folk and me. They are welcome in my club without qualification. To belong to their club, I have to submit to some pretty tight entrance qualifications.

One last thought. My dad loved to bait the folk. Seeing them coming he would take out a Tennesse Ernie Ford record and put it on high volume. Specially liked "The Old Rugged Cross" and such. Kept the music way up the whole time they stood at the door. Embarrased mum, but the old boy thought he was right clever.