Great Story.

Thanks for "spreading the good news" RitaTG!

Congrats St Petes!  Welcome to the family!

Great news on expanding ministry to all, Rita! Congratulations on completeing all the hard work :)

Yes! Glad another congregation is Affirming. Our was officail this spring!

Thank you for the feedback everyone!

Now just to be clear.....

I am part of St. Luke's church family here in Sudbury.

St. Peter's is a church on the other side of the city.

They have a wonderful group there that lead the initiative to attain the Affirming designation.   I was simply a visitor at this particular celebration because it is Pride Week here and this was a special service to celebrate that.

As part of the Pride contingent that attended the service I just happened to be one of the ones that the reporter happened to chat with.

St. Peter's has a wonderful number of gay and lesbian people that are part of their church family and are very active in all facets of church life.   It is their work and love that brought this about and I honour them.

Hopefully soon we will be able to have a trans person join that church family.

Tabitha .....a big congrats and HUG to your church family for their achievement as well!

And HUGS to all the other affirming families represented here.... THANK YOU!

Hugs to all....

Rita

Rita asked me some questions on a different thread, and I will respond to them in my own way.

At my church we welcome everyone.

That being said, we have never in my memory held a special service to welcome in members of any unique community group.

We cherish all of the people in our church and we guide them and each other in living holy, God-honoring lives. I am not saying that we are the only church that does that, simply that that is what we do.

Rich blessings.

So, Jae, if a self-professed married gay couple decided to join your church, they'd be treated the same as any other couple? There would be no discrimination whatsoever? And what if one of those gay men eventually decided that he wanted to become a pastor - would that be okay too?

What if Rita wanted to join your church? Would she be truly welcome?

somegal, we all know what the answers to those questions are.

Jae, my impression is that the reason some churches reach out to the GLBT community is that Christians have, historically, acted like absolute jerks toward the GLBT community, and it takes a meaningful gesture to convince a member of that community to trust a church again.

I think what affirming churches are essentially saying is, "Come on in, we're not like those hateful morons down the street." I think that's a message worth passing along.

I know Chansen, but one day I'd like to be surprised.

somegal, thank you for your questions.

The requirements on anyone seeking membership at my church are the same. They must be 1.) believed by the church leadership to be faithful followers of Jesus Christ, 2.) baptized by immersion, and 3.) voted in by the current church members.

Now you ask if it would be okay for a gay may who is in a same-sex marriage to become a pastor - would that be allowed. My answer would be that I don't believe that he would be supported in becoming that. Not on the basis of who he is - that would be unfair discrimination, but rather on the basis of his chosen lifestyle.

Rita - thanks for sharing...way to go Manitou Conference - my own conference - London - has none!!

I am not going to go into all the differences between a welcoming congregation and an affirming congregation….but….

Dce Jae – you and most likely your congregation live in a “privileged” and taken for granted society – as do many.

Even the basics can be kind of tricky – not that they are necessarily required but do need to be discussed with the congregation.  This is just my view point here….I can tell you that my congregation (Pastoral charge) is not affirming – not that they can’t be – but it’s outside of their box.  They are welcoming but not affirming.

How comfortable are you and your congregation using the correct pronouns when addressing a Queer person – how do you know what they want  ie: he, she, (and/or what seems to be a mixture of pronouns to describe someone).  Has your congregation talked about that?  How do you use gender in your service – how would you address trans people in your service.  Do you know the modern gender terms and do you work them into your service?  Have you educated your congregation on gender and sexual issues of your church family?  How do you address same gender families – their children – how have you educated your Sunday school to address the mom & dad issues….can I walk into your church, possibly holding hands with  my partner and feel welcome – not being starred at?  Do you modernize scripture to be inclusive? If someone in your congregation is in transition – looks like one gender but transitioning and/ or identifying as another, how do you let the congregation know how to address them? 

Christianity has been a privilege and right for straight people – many Queer folks are damaged – how does your congregation reach out to make sure they are part of your church family?  How?

Washrooms – if I am wearing a dress – but identify as a male – what happens if I need to use the washroom?  Are they gender neutral?  If you designate one washroom how is that inclusive?  It’s a step – don’t get  me wrong – but it can still create a barrier. 

Your congregation is more than just your “greeters”, your clergy, it’s everyone – and everyone needs to be on the same page – Education and acceptance.

At Rainbow Camp we work hard at using the pronouns and names that the youth currently identify as.  John looks like John but wants to be called Sally – it takes some getting used to….and we see these kids for 5 days – imagine how hard its going to be for a congregation members who are not there every Sunday….sensitivity is required.  People will make mistakes – but if you are trying it is appreciated!

The straight child who has queer parents – who may or may not go to church – how does your congregation define family?

So many things –  if you have many of these bases covered and are working on them – congratulations!  It will be a work in progress. 

Could a gay couple be considered a faithful followers of Jesus by all of the leaders of your church?

You do realize that homosexuality is not a choice, right? 

I notice you didn't even bother to answer my question about whether or Rita, or someone like her, would be truly welcome in your church.

Jobam - thanks for your illuminating comments - well stated. 

A gay couple would not be considered by all of the leaders of my church as faithful Christ-followers. You do realize that marriage is a choice, right?

I do realize that marriage is a choice. I also realize that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, so I don't see how being gay is the opposite of being faithful Christ-follower.

I see you are still avoiding the question about transgendered people.

Somegal, the problem you have is that Matt 5:17 says that Jesus came to fulfill the OT laws, not abolish them. Your strongest argument is asking why Jae's beliefs are so hung up on gays getting married (which isn't even specifically mentioned, though commanding they be put to death kinda infers God isn't gonna go for the marriage thing), and few of the other laws.

Also, if marriage is so sacred, what about divorce? What about Britney Spears? These people don't care about the sanctity of marriage - they divorce their own spouses more often than us atheists do, but then, atheists have one of the lowest divorce rates.

You can say that the bible never says Jesus spoke against gay marriage, but it doesn't claim he spoke against subprime mortgages either - it's doubtful either were much of a topic of conversation in the day. Or at least, the people who invented Jesus didn't think it was worth trying to figure out what to claim Jesus said on the matter.

somegal, I gave the requirements on anyone requesting membership.

I celebrate that this church chose to become Affirming, it is wonderful.

I do wonder, though, at one point will all other churches come to the table, hanging their head in shame saying I have sinned in the eyes of God for not being an Affirming congregation.  Ok that is a bit harsh but really 25 years ago the church said, "it is time".  25 years later we still have churches who have yet to put their feet forward......bloody awful

Amen pinga. 

Pings, I take it you mean that 25 years ago your denomination said, "It is time." Certainly not the entirety of the Christian Church.

It would be an interesting study to track the demise of the UCCanada against that decision made 2.5 decades ago.

Hi Dcn Jae - its just a matter of time before all Christian faiths accept Queer people.  The youth of today don't tolerate ignorance - and they are the church of tomorrow - in all faiths and religion.  As the U.S. changes - and slowly, the rest of the world, it is only a matter of time. 

oh, mcjae aka dcn jae., I would argue that the lack of committment to that decision drove away more people or caused people not to come than left because of the affirmation of others.

As jobam said, our youth are not fools and do not tolerate ignorance....nor do many people under 40.

and yes, i am referring to the united church of canada specifically; however, yes, i wonder when all places of faith  will hang their head in shame.

Just a point - a congregation doesn't have to be "Affirming" with a capital "A" to be affirming. One is the decision to belong to an organization; the other is the decision to adopt a certain way of living out the faith. They're not mutually exclusive, but neither is one dependent on the other. 

I have heard of "Affirming" churches that actually aren't all that "affirming" in reality, and I have heard of "affirming" churches that want nothing to do with being "Affirming."

That's very true Steven. For example, in my presbytery, my congregation is the only one that is Affirming (officially), however, 3 other congregations joined us in marching in the Gay Pride Parade a couple of weeks ago and I know of two others that are led by openly homosexual ministers.

Interesting comment about "affirming" church vs. "Affirming" church.

I'll keep it in mind as I go to the "Affirm" Conference in North Bay over the August long weekend.

I've never been to a UCCan Conference before, and I'm quite excited.

Moderator Gary and his partner Tim will be leading some of the sections and workshops.

I'm hoping to pick up some ideas for the gay-straight alliance club at the high school where I work.

Is anyone else reading this thread going to the conference in North Bay during August 2-5?

Your words would have more impact chansen if not for the fact that conservative evangelical and charismatic denominations are growing while mainline affirming denominations such as the UCCanada are dieing.

Riiiight, because we all know that the exodus away from the UCCanada was mostly people who didn't think the denomination went far enough in becoming affirming. Suuuure Pinga. 

I prefer to address males as "he" and females as "she" jobam, and I can only state a very firm belief that the rest of the members of my church feel the same way.

No. 

We respect both genders. An example would be that during Bible reading, as appropriate, we note that words such as "brothers" also imply "sisters."

Yes, we have. Most commonly this has been done by the Senior Pastor in some of his sermons. 

We don't have any same-sex couples or their children attending our services. We teach our Sunday School kids to love and respect their parents. You and/or your partner are welcome to visit our church any Sunday for worship.

Please see my note re. gender. Other than that, we generally just read from the NIV.

As far as I know, no one in our congregation is "in transition." 

We do not specifically target them for inclusion. Rather, we reach out to our entire neighborhood, inviting those we meet to worship with us.

We have two washrooms, and they are not designated along gender lines.

We do not have a definition for family in our church constitution.

Roger O'Toole of the University of Toronto actually argues that the "growth" of evangelical churches is something of an illusion, and has far more to do with the fact that on average evangelicals have a higher birthrate than with successful outreach or actual conversion. They do, however, tend to have a higher degree of commitment, partly brought forth by successfully creating a "siege mentality" - ie, "we're the persecuted; we have to stand firm" - in their members.

In any event, numbers are a poor way of demonstrating faithfulness. All they demonstrate (even if it were true that the evangelical denominations were growing in any significant way) is that the churches that are growing are giving their target audience what they want to hear and what they're inclined to respond to. Whether that's faithful or not is an open question. 

If we do want to deal with numbers, though, even in the United States (a supposed bastion of conservative Christianity) the Southern Baptists have started reporting losses. A recent survey in the US showed that most conservative strength is in the pre-baby boomer generation. Among the Baby Boomer generation, religious moderates outnumber religious conservatives (36%-34%). By the time you get to Generation X there are almost twice as many religious moderates as compared to religious conservatives (44%-23%). In the Millennial generation, religious conservatives (17%) are outnumbered by religious moderates (38%), religious progressives (23%) and the non-religious (22%). Religious conservatives, however, tend to use the media far more effectively than the others, which gives an exaggerated perception of their strength - probably even exaggerated to themselves.

I doubt the numbers are much different in Canada. To the extent that they are different, they probably skew even more toward the moderate/progressive/non-religious side.

Actually, I can attest that my information is accurate at least from our church...far more people have left due to the slowness in coming into the current century than ever left over the '88 decision or our decision to be Affirming.

HI GO_3838 - I will be there....looking forward to meeting you.

Pinga, you speak to me of your congregation, I can speak to you of mine. We have had more people from the United Church join us because they disliked that their UCCanada congregation became affirming than we have had people join us because they felt that their UCCanada congregation hadn't gone far enough.

Jae - don't you think the people who leave the United Church because they feel their congregation hasn't gone far enough in terms of welcoming members of the GLBTQ are unlikely to come to your church? After all, these are people who are looking for a church that is more progressive than the United Church - not one that won't even allow women to be ministers (much less homosexual folk).

Lol, that is silly, DCN Jae, of course someone who didn't feel that we didn't go far enough wouldn't join your church.  They go to Unitarian or just give up on Christianity.

My goodness!!!! ... LOL ... go away for a few days and this thread takes off!!!

Thank you all for the wonderful comments and follow up.....

Jae .... thank you for bringing the discussion over to this thread as it is a far more appropriate place for it.....

Now for a few observations/comments if I may.....

Lifestyle choice ..... yes indeed ...... my lifestyle choice is not to attend a service at a Baptist church.    I can get plenty of loving discrimination from the church I formerly attended.   I feel no need to subject myself to more.

Jae is once again retreating to his safe place of evasive murky answers.   No surprise there and I feel no need to following him down into the mud.

Here it is in a nutshell ........ the baptist denomination is firmly stuck in the old gender binary and that is based entirely on a person's plumbing.  I do wonder what they do with intersex persons but perhaps that is a lifestyle choice to them as well.   In regards to gay people the baptist denomination is firmly stuck on the notion of only heterosexual people are clean enough for serving.   Now of course here Jae would remind us that there are "affirming" baptist churches and to that I would point out that it is rather obvious that his is not one of them.  His church obviously follows the conventional baptist doctrine common to the vast majority of baptist churches.

This is why having churches such as St. Peter's reach out to those of us that have been spiritually persecuted by our former churches is so very important.   By the way ... St. Peter's has a number of people from my former church that have become very active members.    These are very stable heterosexual cis-gendered conventional persons that are well aquainted with scripture.

Jae is Jae ....... he holds his mind closed and I really don't expect any change in that regard.

Whether or not the United Church denomination grows or shrinks really is not the heart of the issue for me.   There is a Christ I am most interested in first and foremost.

Now a prediction if I may ........ 

The United Church will go through this time of the dying of some of the old ways and will experience a rebirth of new ways.     I look forward to the the days of revival and a new fresh vision and purpose.   I see it coming.   This is just a pruning....

This is just what I sense in my heart .... we will see if it comes to pass.

Lets put it this way .... were it not for the United Church where I live ..... where would I be able to go and actually be really welcomed and wanted?

For me and many like me ..... this is so very important....... a church for us too.

Sincerely

Rita

You're just not growing. People may tell you you're growing, and we know you'll believe anything your faith leaders tell you, but it's just not true. Millenials think you're bigoted idiots who hate their gay friends. The latest polls out of the US show you're down to 17% of Millenials identifying as religiously conservative.

Source

You're actually in decline as well, and you show signs of a coming rapid increase in decline, because again, your kids aren't as bigoted as your generation is, and your generation isn't as bigoted as the previous generation. Again, you're playing to the old crowd, and you're alienating young people who don't see gays as anything other than people who deserve the same rights as everyone else.

But the worst thing, is that your best chance of stopping this decline is to shelter your children and home school them. A lot of religious conservatives are doing just that. Ideally, don't even tell them about the Internet. When it comes to propagating your faith, the most telling item is that ignorance is your friend.

It is silly to think that people who want a more "affirming" church would leave the UCCanada to join a Fellowship Baptist one. It is equally silly, I posit, to think that people seeking "affirming" churches would come to Baptist churches rather than mainline churches in the first place. What that means is that all your questions to me about how we Baptists act towards people in the community being affirmed are rather silly as well, doesn't it

I suppose so Jae ....... I suppose so....

Regards

Rita

Here's a sign I'd love to see outside of a UCCan church:

While off topic - still shows the "hate" that is arround.....

Kingston, Ont., lesbian couple threatened, told to move out of town

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/dailybrew/kingston-ont-lesbian-couple-threatened-told-move-town-142152433.html

Can i hate "hater"'s?

Don't hate the haters, hate the hating

That would make you a hater hater.   

Just watched last night a very informing episode of Passionate Eye about intersex. No, Reta, Jae would not welcome them, I think.

Just a great interview of Dan Savage last week:

You think wrongly then crazyheart. One and all are welcome to visit our church for worship.

Until they want to get married. A transgendered person in your church would be like a muslim at a Tea Party rally.

chansen wrote:

Just a great interview of Dan Savage last week:

 

Love it - thanks for sharing!