Lots!!!!!

crazyheart, do you have any guesses? Many do not know how time is spent and their knowing would help....

Well Stevie, I have started this post twice and deleted it both times so here goes.

Some churches do the block system. I have never blocked time like this because it was not required by the M&P ctte.

For me, sermon writing, funerals, weddings took as long as they took. I wasn't one to say,"ummm, times up( according to the M&P) and got to the most critical part of the service - the vows, the burial or interment, or the last paragraph of the sermon, said"Amen  " and moved on  to coffee.

I only worked 1/2 time ( church School) being included so I definitely worked more than 1/2 time.

I have known ministers who have in a week - one or 2 Sunday worship services; 2 funerals; 1 wedding; along with other duties. So what to do. The wedding and rehearsal have been booked for a year. The one funeral is a long time church member. The other funeral in someone who doesnt attend church but lives in community and the family have ties to UCCAN, one service at own church and another service at 2nd point, or hospital. What to do? What to cut out? Time is elusive. Either you do it all and take time off following week( which doesn't always work) because it starts all over again.

As you can see I do not have the answer in numbers but I would hope to have a supporting charge who see the amount of work that is being done in their name.

May God give all staff strength to get through these weeks.

Sorry Stevie, no real answer.

Crazyheart, I know the demands placed on a minister's time. I cannot imagine trying to be a minister who says, "that was the whistle..." during a funeral, at a hospital bedside, etc. I am also an "until it is done" type. Yet, I know that my supervision will keep track that I am not overworking (study cannot suffer). When undertaking any new task, one wonders if they are slow or within the realm of "normal". I was not asking for a block of time carved in stone or anything... just a vague idea to measure myself by.

where are all the minister types. Need their input. This is when RevGord and DKS  etc would be handy with their experience over the years.

Weddings take an hour fodr rehearsals and 2 hours to do the event ( there about) as far as preparing the service I had templates I gave to the couple for their input and then the service was created - since I had a secretary she did the bulletin - but it took me an hour to put it together.... depending on the couple there was at least 4 hours of preparation.  Sermon took about two hours to prepare as i had a template,, and the sermon would be 10 minutes,

Funerals - again there are templates for the service and the one in the celebrating worship ( whatever it is called) is good.  The prayers not bad and I created ones that were generic.  The actual funeral could be 20 minutes to an 1and half hours.  Visiting the family may be up to 3 visits to get the service done.  Sermon for the service - again a generic that is worked out for the person - so it would take a couple of hours to put together. 

Both these services have their own context and input that works with each and the sermon preparation gets easier,,,, what takes time is actual services and visiting in prpearation.  I never went to wedding receptions unless it was a couple that was part of the church or were friends.   Funeral lunches are a must.

The thing about weddings is they really are on our own time - thus I charged - and can wreck a weekend.  Funerals take away from other tasks, There were times the week was sunday preparation and funerals and that is all I did.  Again this is worked out with the M&P and cong come to know this and are happy with it.  Now the problem can be community funerals - if there are other clergy in the town then one should limit them.   A friend got into trouble because he was the default person for community funerals and the cong noticed he was doing at least one a week and they were not attacted to the church.  Again community funerals are paid for by the people.

Keep track of all these fees and put them on your tax forms.

Thanks, Panentheism. It seems I am very much within the realm of "normal". HA!       In the past, for a funeral my time was not something I was overly aware of or concerned about. I did not do weddings or baptisms. I didn't have to account for my time to the funeral home or the family and thus did not really monitor it.  As I am now accountable for my time, to a pastoral charge, I wanted to have some sense of "normal" and expectations. Thanks!

I've been thinking about this SG - as a lay person, what would I expect?

A bit off topic - but do you usually attend the wedding reception if you just met the couple because of the wedding?

The questions raised here, and the responses by several, continue to make me very aware of the demands of ministry personnel that most people in the congregation are not even aware.

I am a layperson who has done prepared for and led many worship services in my church, and have done one graveside funeral service for the parent of some close friends.  And I know how much time I put into all of these - LOTS!

So when I hear people in my congregation saying "I wish our minister spent more tme in the office during the week" I am very concious of the fact that there are time when my minister is extremely taxed.  We have always tried to be generous with extra time off when funerals and weddings and other "other than Sunday" services are taxing of their time.

I hope your congregation appreciates you SG and treats you real good!

no

Seeler,

For a funeral, the time spent with the family is a big variable. As a lay person, some phoned from a great distance and a ten minute phone call provided all I needed. Some you may spend alot of time with and feel you have enough or nothing much....The service (sermon in), on average, takes me a couple hours. I am sure a community felt accident or young person's suicide or something may require far more time.

---------------------------------------------------------------
chemgal,

I believe in going where I am invited, where I know them well or not. I believe one can do as much pastoral care, outreach... at a wedding as one can at a funeral. I have always been invited to funeral luncheons. I have been invited to a few wedding receptions. I may just make an appearance and go, but for me it is polite when invited.

One can usually spot an invite that is because they feel obliged, then I give them the out of saying it is not expected. If they do not take the out, I assume they have another reason.

Part of my post above seems to have disappeared. I tried to imagine Crazyheart's scenario.

Wedding - already an obligation. But most likely you have already met with the couple; perhaps several times. Hopefully, you have an idea of how the service will go. So block off the time needed for the rehearsal and the actual service. You have to be there. Rehearsal dinner? Reception? Did they give the obligatory invitation? Attend if you really want to, if you will enjoy being there, or if you feel that this is an excellent opportunity to get to know the couple, the family, or the community. Otherwise, politely decline.

Two funerals - high priority. Give special attention to the long time church member. But while planning her service jot down themes and ideas for the other funeral. Visit with the family immediately when you hear the news, do the funeral, go to the cemetery for the committal (if it is happening at that time). Make an appearance at the reception. Follow up in a week or two.

Now for the worship services. This might be a time to check and see if the service you did three years ago with another pastoral charge can be revamped and used. Or perhaps you have a book with some good sermon starters. Read them over and make them your own. If writing the prayers is getting you down, use a book of prayers from your shelf. If the children's time has you in a sweat, let somebody else do it. For the second service - on a two point charge I usually use the same service. For a nursing home, or other short service, I would look at modifying and simplifying my Sunday message - or perhaps something from the funeral service would be suitable.

Cut back on your visiting this week. Pick up a couple of extra calls next week. And, if you can, cut back on meetings or your involvement in VBS.

You can't do everything. Set your priorities. And yes, this week you may go over your allotted time.

Beloved, my congregations have been wonderful. My new appointment seems equally wonderful.

Seeler, I agree. You have to prioritize, delegate, admit you cannot keep ten plates in the air at once, that there are only so many hours in a day, reuse or revamp a service and practice self-care.

Thanks SG, Seeler and Pan.

There's that old saying - "the work expands to fill the time" - which sometimes can be true here, I think.  It's a great inquiry SG - to see how others allot time - to the extent such matters are at all predictable.  It's helpful to me too as an M&P member, to learn about these things too.  We do need to guard against burnout in our ministry staff - very important IMO. 

I agree with whoever stated upthread that congregations rarely appreciate the extent of time needed for preparations - so the question becomes -  how to help them understand this better?   There's the same sense of that with teachers - how long could it possibly take to prepare lessons, gather supplies, do marking, write report cards etc.  Hidden work. 

Funeral: About 4 hours, not counting follow-up.

Wedding: About 6 hours, including prep meetings with the couple.

Unless the couple have a close church connection I don't attend wedding receptions.

A baptism is really a part of the Sunday service, so the only additional time would be meetings with the parents, so let's say 2 hours.

Interesting thread. I am not in a position where I would be called upon to do any of these rites of passage as an officiant but I do sometimes contemplate taking the UU lay chaplaincy training and serving my fellowship in that capacity, perhaps after I am retired. In my congregation, where there is a minister, that would mean providing weddings (yes, lay chaplains are licensed under a special arrangement between CUC and the appropriate authorities), funerals, etc. to non-members and possibly to members when the minister is unavailable or we are between ministers. So, I am taking in what's being said on the chance that it may be relevant to me someday. Thanks to all for the wisdom even if it wasn't intended for me.

Mendalla

Thanks everyone!

As has been stated, whether in an accountable position, M&P folks, congregation or someone thinking about their own call, etc. It is a valuable discussion.

Like talking about money, how much time is taken to do ___ is something we don't feel so good talking about. It doesn;t much matter whether it is talkign about how long it took to paint a room or lay a floor or do a funeral.

For me, it is important for all- to avoid have burn-out, to have realistic expectations, to understand when someone did not get a call or a visit....

It also helps folks see a need for pastoral care teams, etc. and help them answer their own call.

SG - in terms of your comment above re "to understand when someone did not get a call or a visit"  -a few years ago I heard Rev. Brent Hawkes (from Metropolitan Community Church) speak & he made a very interesting point re pastoral care visits - he indicated that at MCC visits are ONLY made on request of congregants - that it is their own responsibility to advise of a need (not the job of ministers or others to make guesses & have people be pissed off if not noted in a timely manner, as does happen) - and when such a need is made known, it will usually be responded to very capably by trained members of their Pastoral Care committee - that the minister is the LAST person they should expect to visit.  It's a departure from practice in most churches I know, and on reflection definitely has some merits, IMO. 

I truly am an odd duck when it comes to preparing for the various public occaisions over which a minister is called to preside and preach. Being wholly biased to the oral and the extemporaneous provides me with a great latitude specific to the use of my available time.

I am a contemplator and a ruminator. Saying this I mean that my background mind is always working on the texts and themes which will comprise the substance of my communication in the gathered community.

I also have a tremedous intuitive capacity, which allows me to be present where I need to be present, and when I need to be present. Very little of my time is given to obligatory calls or commitments.

In all of my pastoral relationships I have earned a reputation as someone who is always there when needed. Folks also have been gracious in conceding me time away when demand is light. I have tended to strike a balance based on trust.

Many times over the years I have wondered how folk, who work with prepared scripts, manage when a sudden burst of funerals and such occurs in any given week. It must be very demanding and stressful.

George

Carolla,

Where is the "Like" button?

There are those people who a "visit from the minister" strikes panic. There are those who neither want it or feel they need it. There are those who the visit is harmful and not helpful.

I worked domestic violence and I can hear, "What did you tell the minister? Then, why are they here?" You expect me to believe they just came by?" as someone is battered.

My mom's Missouri Synod Lutheran minister used to just "show up". His visits were never announced. The experience of it would throw my mom into a tailspin because combining mental illness and the horror at the minister stopping in "with the house like this" or "with you kids looking like..." The man never likely knew that some of the worst beatings we took were as he pulled out of the driveway for something we did while he was there.

Etiquette has taught me that you call people first and do not just show up. My mind always wondered why the minister was different. My rabbi felt everyone should call first and it included him- to make sure the person was up to a visit, wanted one, would not have company. etc.

We ask for people to make prayer requests, rather than just including them in the pastoral prayer. Why not a pastoral visit?

As someone who attended the MCC in both Corpus Christi, Texas and Toronto, I noticed they had the same policy. The following is IMO
It does not smack of paternalism. It lets the visited be autonomous. It respects that.
It acknoweldeges that pastoral care is not always about illness. It can be about questions, someone to pray with (or you don't know how to begin), etc...
It shows a sensitivity that you may reside with someone who will not appreciate the minister coming over.
It acknowledges that some people are private. It respects that privacy.

How common is this, the requesting of pastoral visits, in the UCC?

In my experience - this is extremely rare.

Every week in our bulletin there's a note that says "if you'd like a pastoral visit from the minister, please call the church office to set one up." There are cards in the pews that a person could fill out to request a visit. The same notice is on the church website. People see it. They still don't call, they don't fill out the card, and people still get mad because "the minister" didn't visit at such and such a time; primarily because no one told the minister that so and so wanted or needed a visit.

Rev Steven Davis,

I posed the question wondering how many have, or have moved to, a responsive pastoral care model.

Have some believed it was while others have not?

Thanks for sharing and I notice the same.

People do not make a request and then are upset that nobody mentioned it (BTW they also get mad about folks "knowing their business", "butting in" or "talking about them"....)

Have we communicated well that the model is responsive? For me, I can see people believing that the line in the bulletin is "for those who don't know or the new folks" and that the cards are for the same.

Have we communicated well that times have changed and the minister is not God, does not mind read, is not "checking up" on the sinners, I mean the congregation? LOL

I tend to think likely not. Where all insitutions fall short and what every person complains about (at work, in relationships...) is communication.

How about making it pretty clear?
Here at ____, we have responsive pastoral care. That means that pastoral care staff (or minister) respond to your request for care. We respect your privacy as well as your choices and will not impose ourselves. We will wait for you. Please let us know if you would like for us to help you, work with you, or offer any of the services for you or a loved one.

Can someone tell me why since moving to Windows8 I cannot skip lines to make readable paragraphs? In rich text editor, it will not take an enter key to move to the next line. In plain text editor, it will skip the line, but when it is posted it removes the skipped lines and simply shows where I might have put them. GRRRRRRR!

Here you go SG -  

Good paragraph you wrote - I like it & agree with your comments.  Do recall our minister 'dropping by' when I was a kid - my mom would have similar reactions about the house, her state of dress etc.  

MCC has many great ideas & practices - like a very clear series of orientation sessions (mandatory!) for new members - where issues of church orientation, management/organization, finances, participation, pastoral care etc. are all clearly laid out so people know exactly what to expect when joining the church.  I imagine it solves many issues that commonly arise from people's assumptions & unmet silent expectations. 

Hi SG, 

I had the same problem using Internet Explorer10 on Windows7. It disappeared when I switched to Chrome. 

We had a discussion about this a few months ago. Others experienced the same problem with IE10 and Windows7 . . . I don't recall anyone mentioning Windows8 at that time. 

It doesn't surprise me that WIn8 + IE10 is causing problems. My brief fling with IE10 left a bad taste in my mouth. In the end, Win8 couldn't run some of the software I need at work so I rolled my new laptop back to Win7 with IE9. At home, I use Firefox (on both PCs and our Android tab) and plan to stay with it. IE is just too bloody unpredictable and Chrome is a little too tied in to Google for my tastes.

Mendalla

I am one that does not desire a visit from the minister - not that I don't like the minister - but I just don't want/need/desire a visit - either announced previously or sprung on in surprise.

I know that if I felt I needed to have a visit with my minister I could request it.

This is something that is always at the forefront at our church in the form of a "big complaint".  There are some that want a visit . . . but if you have a minister who is not fond of visiting, they get offended when a visit isn't scheduled.  There are some who get angry when the minister is out visiting and not in the church office.  You can't please all the people all of the time.

SG I hope you are able to find balance in scheduling your time in your ministry and also balance in trying to do what your congregation desires of you.  And admist all of this staying true to yourself and your own specific gifts and talents.

For new ministers I think one of the most important things is getting to know the people in the congregation, and getting to know the feel of the congregation - instead of rushing in and wanting to change things to their liking.  Change is good, change is needed, but it needs to come from the congregation with carefully, sensitively, cautiously planted seeds from the minister.

I will have to do something about this operating system as it is making me crazy. But that is all I am in a rush to change, Beloved.  I have seen too many before me rush to change things and suffer the consequences....So, I will do what I did with our house, "emergency only for a while". I mean, you have to fix the roof if it gets a leak... but, you don't want to start into a wall before you know what is in there....I mean it could be a load bearing wall. You could also get in there and find wood that has rotted, leaking pipes, moldy insulation, no insulation, asbestos.... I mean you better have it in your head what might happen and how you might deal with it before you swing that hammer. So, we moved in with a moratorium for 6 months on "change" and in that time we decided what needed changed as well as what we could live with, and what we couldn't... Something we wanted to change right away (0on day one) -the kitchen cupboards- are still there all these years later because they did not need anything but new handles and they are just fine.

Thank you Beloved and SG

Our minister just shows up (no notice) for a visit and never talks religion.  We really enjoy him. 

If ours did that, I'd likely blow him off unless I really needed to talk to him for some reason. Seriously. Call first and see if its okay. Some of us have enough going on in our lives that spontaneous, unannounced visits are more of a nuisance than a benefit.

Mendalla

I am clergy not God. I do not get to decide when you want or need a visit. You do.

The visit is pastoral, providing care. So, IMO you have to be open to reality and you have to care.

 Who might be less than ecstatic about a visit-
The person who thinks it is enough to see you one hour a week
Hoarders
The very hurried parents of little ones who have to schedule their own bowel movements
The person putting in long shifts who’s idea of relaxing is not staring into the minister’s face
Those who have been taught that the minister is there to judge
Those who live in poverty and have no tea or coffee or a coffee and you make them feel ashamed
Alcoholics who at 9 am on a Sunday have only had enough to ward off the DT’s, but by noon are well… or those folks married to one
The person who has a partner that can be heard yelling and swearing from down Those with cats that spray the house or dogs that are not housebroken
The person who needs to move laundry for anyone to sit down
The addict who will be high
The 80 year old who is dying who will feel obligated to get out of bed, get dressed, do their hair or shave….
The person who is in agony as they don’t take pain meds so they aren’t “fuzzy”
The person who does not have any idea what will happen while you are there, what drama, what chaos...
The person who lives with someone who will “start” about religion the minute you leave
The busy folks who have better things to do (playing with their kids or even starting dinner or doing laundry)
Those who clock watch because their show is about to come on
Those who have yet to tell the kids or break down and your presence will make it impossible
Those who are in so much pain they just want left alone
The overburdened caregiver who thinks, “if that so-and-so wasn’t here they would be napping and I could catch a break”

deleted. I was taking this off topic- but I agree with SG's post.

This is important for m&p committees.  It is common to follow this idea; that a church has pastoral committee that keeps in touch with its members; that the minister visits only on request and on a spiritual nature; that the minister does spritual visits with communion to shut ins; minister does "crisis visits" and sends those who are not a spiritual issue on to mental health and the like people.

The issue of burn out is not time but the question of what is my role.  For me the role is a theologian/spirutal guide/worship leader/prober of ideas/spiritual resource.  It is when these roles are not assumed by the congregation and they want you to be a CEO and a "personal on call for my needs" and jump to our ideas and fit with our mindset that leads to identity crisis which is the ground for burnout.  It is the being picked to death by a thousand small points.  When one is confident in their identity as a a spiritual grounded person who has a gift that one is able to work out time and the negativity fo some.

By the way I had a wise elder say to someone that complained they had not meet the minister, nor had he visited, that she saw him every week on sunday morning.  This become the mandra of the other elders ( or visitors) or members of the congregation when they heard such a complaint.

Being really clear about how to reach out for pastoral care is crucial, whether it's done by the minister or the committee! Post it:

• in the bulletin
• at the church in 2 or more Highly Visible places
• on the website
• and mention it in the announcements, now and again, espeically if there are new faces in the crowd

'Dropping in' is not welcome, in this day and age. SG has nailed some really good reasons why that is the case. 

I'm sorry that I have to disagree with many of these posts.

While sixty years ago my mother was delighted to have the minister drop in a couple of times a year, especially when she became too ill to attend church, dropping in unannounced is inappropriate in this day and age. Phone first.

But I would still be delighted to have the minister (or one of the elders) phone and ask if they could arrange a visit with me - when would it be convenient? should they come to my home, or would I prefer to meet them for coffee somewhere?

Filling in the card requesting a visit doesn't seem right to me. I would think that indicated that I needed a visit; that I was sick, or bereaved, or having problems, or wanted to discuss something about the church, or ask questions about my religious beliefs. I would like to think that the minister might like to visit just to get to know me better, to find out what my interests are, to meet my family. I would also like to get to know the minister better, away from seeing her up front in the pulpit, or trying to speak to everyone at fellowship time.

So, if it is possible to work into her busy schedule, I would like the minister to phone and then come for a visit.

I also think that there are specific times when the minister should make a point of calling and asking if a visit could be arranged. Serious illness, death, unemployment, divorce or other family problems, trouble with the law. (If everybody in the city knows my son has been arrested for drunk driving or assault or shoplifting or murder, I would like the minister to show that she cares - and I'm not apt to call.)

Being called might be enough. I might not feel up to having a visitor at that time. I might be too depressed, too embarrassed, too busy, or simply too tired. But I would like to be called.

It might also be nice to be called and thanked for my contribution to the VBS, or congratulated on my grandson's winning a scholarship (I wish).

But I'm not apt to ask for a call.

Instead of a phone call does anyone email to set up a visit if wanted?

I'm thinking there are times when phone calls can be obtrusive too.

I have a question. Back in the 60's and 70's. the congregations were bigger but the minister made calls. Now, the congregations in most cases are smaller and the ministers in most cases don't want to make visits unles they are crisis calls. Why is this?

An e-mail might work, but I think arranging a mutually agreeable time might require a bit of conversation.  It might take quite a few e-mails to discover that I am available next Tuesday morning.  But she has a meeting.  Thursday afternoon would work for me.  She will be tied up until 4:00.   Could we meet at Tims on the corner of ... and . .  Maybe it would be better to put it off until next week.  Tuesday, at my place, at 10:00 am.  And yes, I understand that you will have to leave by 11:00 to meet the choir director.

There are many layers to things. It has been brought up that some feel folks should request visits. Some are not open to them and fidn them intrusive or awkward. Some love them. Some feel that too much falls to the minister. Some feel that it has to be a spiritual visit. Some feel that with a small congregation it should fall to the minister.... to add another layer, what about the mileage costs that a small church may not want to incur?

I have phoned and visited in the past 6 weeks. I knew the weight that they placed on pastoral care before I agreed to the terms. One could also guess based on the average age. I have asked that they let me know that they care for a visit. I have done the same with shut-ins - asking about communion (and have yet to encounter one who wants it brought to them). IMO it is one of the only ways to get to know folks. You are out the door to the next church and can't stay for fellowship on Sunday. There are the board meetings but they should not last 3-4 hours. So many cannot drive to evening things or seem to only take the car out on Sunday. There will be the once or twice a year social events and the few who choose a Bible study or book club. And there will be the inevitable hospitalizations and funerals. So, yes, I have been visiting. IMO They are always of a spiritual nature.  

The same goes for VM though.  Sometimes an email is a good way to touch base.  I've heard about x, would you like a visit or to be included in a prayer circle?  Is there anything that we could do to make this easier for you?

I don't know the typical wording, but it's a starting point.  There is also something like FB messages, where it can be RT or read as emails.

I'm just thinking personally, if I'm sick and need to sleep during the day I might not want calls.  I might eventually want something, but am not up to talking to people right then.  Maybe I'm waiting test results and get anxious anytime the phone rings.  A phone call isn't as intrusive as just dropping in, but I think in times of stress sometimes giving someone more control over their response is helpful.

In this day and age, I hope most ministers are open to receiving at least the initial request by email even if subsequent negotiation of dates and such happen by phone (or Skype or your interactive communication medium of choice). It may not work for everyone, but it's how more and more people are used to doing things, especially younger folks (meaning younger than me). I, personally, find swapping email easier than playing phone tag.

Mendalla

email and telephone - each has its place.

I am open to receiving email. However, most in the congregations do not have email. The phone is used or, heaven forbid, we speak face to face. I would never just drop in, not even on those in retirement facility. There may be cards, some entertainment, or family... it may simply be nap time. I scheduled first visits and then asked when they prefer me to come. If need be, I ask staff and/or family for their input. I do not get to decide for them. I only have input, regarding my own schedule. But, that is me and my belief that deciding for another, when or even if they have a visit, smacks of paternalism.

That is way too much of an absolute, martha, and as such it should not ever be given as general advice for all circumstances. The issue is a matter of context. You need to get to know your people and your place. That's certainly the case in larger, urban centres for the most part in my experience, but as communities become smaller and closer-knit the whole contrext changes.

When I served in a small fishing community (actually I served 3 points and about 5 or 6 small fishing communities between them) in western Newfoundland, people expected unannounced pop-in visits from the minister. If I called ahead to set something up, there'd be irritation in the parishioners' voice - "just come over whenever you want to Reverend Davis."

Please teach people to be sensitive to the local culture, not to assume that "one size fits all."