I'd hope that the expectation be that they show up and that their presence is contribution enough. If they become a member, there is generally some expectation that they will give in some way but that may just be an envelope on the plate. If they are in need, I'd hope even that expectation would be set aside. IOW, if the church is truly a spiritual community built on love, then I'd hope that the expectations would be focussed on being loving members of the community, not on dollars and hours.

Personally, I find it hard to go to a church and not contribute something. Within weeks of starting to attend my UU fellowship, I was working on redesigning their website and I started lay preaching the following summer, IIRC. Even now, when I'm not attending regularly, I've been helping my fellowship with the purchase of a new computer and am nudging them on doing an upgrade/update of the website. I'm sure it's a product of my upbringing. Grandad was a minister and my parents were always involved in the church in some way and that example has clearly stuck with me. That's likely why I haven't really clicked into any of the UCCan churches I've tried. I just haven't seen a role beyond sitting in a pew and sitting in a pew isn't my style.

I do not, however, expect everyone who goes to church to be like that; I just find it hard to see how one can get out without putting in.

Mendalla

Nothing at our church.

They will be told of stuff that's happening and invited. We try to shay "hi" in a way they're comfortable with, and most start getting into things, meeting and mixing and we don't rush it. The plate is passed but it's not an issue and they can pass it on as they wish. Some we see once or twice and then not all all for a while or maybe for ever. Some ask for a visit and it's arranged as soon as possible, immediately if there's an indication of some crisis or other.

chemgal,

I am a bit of an oddity. I do not believe in expectations at the door and contemplate how often people come or whether they are members. It doesn't matter to me.

Some folks think support is only from those people who arrive or come often...

In Judaism, people are not there at services weekly. Some are there on High Holy Days only.... It does not make them a "good" Jew or a "bad" Jew. That is determined by what they are doing or not doing the rest of the week. They support even if they are not there.

I mean, I support the SPCA but I am not a dog or cat. People who have never had diabetes or cancer support those groups. I have never been inside a Red Cross.

IMO if you are doing things noteworthy, word will get out. If you are doing things people want to support, then people willl support it.
 

Some people do not have that hour on Sunday free. Some folks are shuttling children. Some folks only have that day for sleeping in or seeing family. Some folks are tied to caring giving. Some are working....

Church is many diverse people. Some have free Sundays. Some do not. Some can give financially, some cannot. Some volunteer in life outside church, they are volunteers, and some are not. Some are introverts.

Some people like attending, love the liturgy, like the people.... but maybe they are not ready to leave the faith or denomination they are a member in. Maybe opening the conversation at home would invite hurt feelings, insults, a fight, be dangerous? Maybe that "connection" is not about faith or belief but a connection to childhood, to family, to memories...

So, I am one of these types-

Come in as you are.

Take what you need, leave the rest....
 

If it is nourishing, life-giving, loving.... you will want more.....

If it bears the fruit of the spirit, then it will bear fruit..... then that fruit will bear fruit and will bear more fruit....
 

Well said.

Mendalla

I believe that people should come, give, do, share, and love as they are able.  For each of us that is different.  There should be no expectations.

Depends on the denomination and congregation.  The UCCan (and most mainline churches for thqat matter) tend to be low demand churches.  They do not expect much and do not make a big thing about asking for things that show committment.  This includes regular attendance at worship, amount of money/tithing, participation in study and fellowship groups, or even moving from being an adherent to full membership.

Other churches are high demand churches.  They are much clearer about the expectations of membership in the community and expect people to live up to those expectations (sometimes enforcing them as a condition of remaining a member in good standing).

And of course there are various stopping places between low (or even no) and high demand churches. 

Both approaches to community development have pluses and minuses.  But the lower to no demand communities have, imo, a bigger problem actually building up the community.  To make no demands of membership ends up suggesting that there is really little reason to be a member.  And yes I think the UCCan has fallen into this trap.  At the same time, to ask too much of membership (particularly asking poorly or too soon) can drive people away.

Speaking only for my local church – we have an expectation of participating in some way, shape or form.  As for giving, we no longer have “the offering” as part of the service…..people don’t miss it at all…funny, we have done this for 2 years now…..folks have to give at least $1.00 per year to be a member/adherent (unless they can’t afford it).  So far, as worked well.

Chemgal,

If you are talking about yourself-the United churches on the south side are quite used to students. There isn't an expectation to attend every Sunday-go as you are able.

Same with offering, after a while, put what feels right to you in the plate.

As for all the other volunteer activities-do nothing if it suits you-but some churches have one time things-like bring a specified gift for Bissell Centre, bake cookies one time for Habitat for Humanity, join the sing along Hallejah Chorus

You may be offered a chance to do othr things but you can always say "that won't work for me right now".

I attended St. Paul's-just 2 blocks west of McKernan Belgravia LRT stop.  The United Church University chaplain is also employed here 1/2 time.

I previously attend Knox-Met (82 and 109) and before that Garneau-(84 and 112). Garneau was holding "alternate" services in the early afternoons-made up mostly of 20-35 year olds. You might call them and see if that is still happening.

Try something out, and if it's not a comfortable fir try something else!

While I do believe this to be true, I also believe that it is the responsibility of the church/congregation to inform its people of its needs.  And then it is up to each person who considers themselves a part of that congregation to determine whether they can meet any or some of the needs.

Hi chemgal,

My expectation is that each member will give what they feel is most appropriate for their circumstance.  The common refrain in the United Church is time, talent and treasure though it is hard to find any stewardship program that places the three in the same order of priority.

With respect to time, I try to instill in the congregations that I work with, that this is best measured by presence.  How present are you as an individual in the life and work of a congregaiton.

With respect to talent, I try to instill in the congregations that I work with, the notion that talent can be anything from sweeping floors to serving on a committee.  Almost anything we can do for others is talent and if they want to do something better we will help to equip them.

With respect to treasure, I try to move beyond the dollars and cents aspect, though both are always in short supply. to a value added approach with respect to the community.  Maybe putting money into the Church coffers is difficult for a particular member.  Can they be a help to a neighbour in some way?

My greatest expectation is that every member is growing in some way.  If we are not challenging you in some way then we clearly are not being much help to you.

Grace and peace to you.

John 

I am wondering how the ministers here would react to the following situation. I know a couple in my church who cannot afford to donate any money, are unwilling to donate their time, but expect the church (the minister, in particular) to be there for them whenever something comes out that is out of the ordinary (which seems to be fairly frequently). 

I am of the opinion that if you cannot afford to donate financially, that's fine - but you should, as a member, be willing to give of your time in whatever way best matches your talents.

Hi somegalfromcan,

Working only with the information that you have shared.  The couple are members or, at the very least, under the pastoral care of the congregation so pastoral support should be offered as it would be to any other member of the congregation.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I agree with JOhn.  The care and support of the congregation is not contingent on what people contribute.  If anything my stewardship understanding is that it flows the opposite way.  We give because we have been blessed--we do not give to be blessed.  (Assuming that the care and support of the congregation is in fact a blessing )

Rev John/Gord - I would argue that it shouldn't even matter if the person is a member of the congregation (the church is a charitable organization, after all, and organizations such as soup kitchens generally don't restrict their services to their members).

Having said that, I fully understand what it is like when so few (member or non-member) contribute to those services that are being taken advantage of, and indeed are often expected. We do live in a society, after all, where the philosophy seems to be "take whatever you can get; give as little as you have to". All that I can say is that a more giving/serving point of view takes longer to arrive at, and even many church members haven't fully embraced it. Are those individuals being hypocrits? Aren't we all in some way? Bottom line is that what will bring us into the Kingdom of God is moving our self-absorbed souls from concentrating on taking, and focusing on giving. For some of us, that takes a lifetime.

I am wondering if any of you would encourage this couple to consider volunteering - I know this couple quite well and know that they do have the time and talents to do so. When I have asked them about it, they have either come up with excuses or said "someone else will do it."

somegalfromcan:  Someone asked me once, if in life I wanted to be a hitchhiker?  A hitchhiker stands on the side of the road, thumb out waiting for a ride.  Usually the person then gets in a welcoming car, takes the distance offered, sometimes says good-bye and goes on his/her way.  The driver of the car, offers the ride, usually without conditions, and then says 'so long' when the person leaves.  The expectations are low.  the hitchhiker contributes nothing to the ride, gas, etc. But they still get the ride.  I choose to be the driver, offering without condition what the person needs if I am going that way and can take them a little way on their journey.  When the paths diverge, they need to seek another ride,and I go on my journey along the road chosen.  We choose our way of getting through life.  It is upon our conscience and spirit that the choices are made.  Grace and peace to you all.

I come from what some might consider a high demand place. In Judaism, tithing is an absolute.. Yet, mandatory attendance is not....

I believe you can be present and very much absent . Conversely, you can be absent and very much present.

It is easy to say, "they cannot afford to donate". Poverty is something we tend to know.

What don't we know?

Who in your congregation is a caregiver and cannot volunteer? Oh, sure we know the folks who care for those with cancer, stroke and heart attack. But, who lives with an addict who you do not have a clue is an addict? Who deals with someone with mental illness and you do not "see" it?

Who has good days and bad days and cannot commit?

Who is falling down drunk Tuesday at noon? Who has taken a few narcotics?

Who has a jealous spouse who reads the odometer and wants to know where they were and what they were doing?

Who cannot commit to Wednesday night because they may have a black eye?

Who is heading to divorce?

Who is dealing with an out of control child?
 

Who can't come to church with marks?

Who is busy looking for a loved one who has "gone out" (12 step term)?

How many invisible things might be there?

Attendance is something some people take for granted.

It is also something we assume others can do... It may be because we are blessed and it may be because we are far from where we think we are when it never entered our mind....

Well said SG. 

Thanks Tabitha!  Some of it as I have been considering dropping in from time to time!

Many people here are very involved with their church.  Same goes for most of the people I know IRL; they either attend church and are involved or at least one of the family members is involved or they don't attend.  The exception being Catholics lol.

I have attended dinner sessions on campus where church members put together the food.  You ask about marriage prep and you get dragged in :)  At least I was able to attend the thank you dinner we did one year (it was pretty much only one year I attended the dinners) where the students made the dinner.  So there's that to, I feel like I've done more than my share of taking without doing much giving when it came to that.

Otherwise I just thought it would make for good discussion or at least interesting answers and judging by the above responses I would say it has :)

somegal, it seems to me that the couple see themselves as peripheral to the church, ready to access help as needed, but not really belonging.  If they are in a real relationship with the congregation, then their responses hint at feeling insecure or inadequate, reluctant to offer the chance of being judged by what they might contribute.  You claim to know them well.  Do you believe that you are in a real relationship with them?  Are they in relationship beyond the marginal with anyone?  Please don't answer these questions here.

I try to avoid feelilng exploited by seeing every event in which I give as an opportunity to give of myself -- I try to focus on my side of the equation without worrying too much about the other side -- that is for them and God.  I don't always succeed at this at the gut level, but I do try.

Jim - I can honestly say that I am in a real relationship with this couple. I can also tell you that most of the other members of the church seem to have completely written them off. Many people went out of their way to help them during difficult times and that doesn't happen any more - and I suspect that's because of the lack of reciprocity.

Giving?

Why do we refuse to give unless we get back? Is that not bartering and not truly giving?

Withholding love because you did not get back, when you said you gave unconditionally?

Really?

What does 1 Corinthians 13 say about not having love?

Did you make it clear it was a contract, a deal, a barter....?

Who says, "We will be friendly and do this and that, but only if you contribute financially" or "We are there for you, as you are, as long as you change and become ____" or "This is a gift from our heart and because of our beliefs, now get on that committee or sign up on that volunteer list or else" or "We are here for you as long as you do what we want, if you don't we will withdraw that"? or "This is a gift, no need to pay it back, but you OWE us"

Would any of us be there if this was the deal?

So, can and do we expect someone to be cool with what we would say "no way in hell" to?

Is this what we long to create? Is it what we have created?

One of the biggest things that Emerging research showed was that the unchurched fear exactly this. Wanting to change them, demanding too much time, wanting them FOR something....

How is this diffferent than the Temple of Jesus' time that he was so critical of? How is it the same?

John spoke  of when we close our heart to one in need, how do we say we have God's love abiding in us.... James spoke of faith without works.... We hear that when we do it for another, we do it for Jesus....

Matthew 5:42 sticks with me, "give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you."

What of that we have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak and not please ourselves?

 Matthew 10:8, that we received without paying and should give without pay.
 

The Samaritan knew nothing would likely change helping that injured man. He still would not be welcome. He helped anyways. It reminds me of this....
 

People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered.  Forgive them anyway.

            If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives.  Be kind anyway.

            If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies.  Succeed anyway.

           If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you.  Be honest and sincere anyway.

            What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight.  Create anyway.

            If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous.  Be happy anyway.

            The good you do today, will often be forgotten.  Do good anyway.

         Give the best you have, and it will never be enough.  Give your best anyway.

         In the final analysis, it is between you and God.  It was never between you and them anyway.

In this life, you are not promised to get what you give.

Can you give it anyways?

This IMO is not about us and them.... it is about us and God

well said.
I don't think church congregations are any better than regular folks and in groups, popularity usually comes with certain behaviour and standards. Nobody likes to hang out with negative or grumpy people- and you will find very few people who can actually loved them. There are people who can drain you... and it would take a group effort to hang in there and continue to support that person. I have yet to find a group that is so open and honest with each other that they can bear other people's burden on an ongoing basis.
That group would have to admit to each other their own need for "feeling good" from helping, and their own failure in loving the ones that seem to just drain you.
It is also much easier to do good for short term needs (christmas hampers), where both sides can play the role of giver and happy receiver and then part their ways, rather than build relationships.
If there is a relationship, I don't think it would be a bad thing to ask for something in return- that way, it gives the receiving person some dignity and it is easier to bear for them receiving without being able to return.
Some people have developed a wrong sense of giving and receiving. Like spoiled kids with an attitude of entitlement. With a relationship as basis, they could have the chance to learn that all life is based on weakness and strength, giving and receiving, so they could regain their self worth. But to build that relationship would be the key. It takes a village to do that. It would take a lot of prayer and tears and God's blessing. I have yet to see a community that loving.

somegal, you may be in a real relationshtip with them, and I admire you for valuing relationship enough to care enough to want them to have a real relationship with the congregation.  I am not sure what your problem is.  What do you want to be different?

Hosea is a challenging prophet and book.  In Tales of Gletha the Goatlady by Roger Robbenholt (sp?) the chapter titled "Hosea" is a challenging story about forgiveness, a synopsis of which will be part of my midnight service message.  As we move into celebrating Christmas, we are called to remember God loves us unconditionally and persistently, a love made visible through Jesus.  Difficult people test our ability to reciprocate God's unconditional love for us by loving these people unconditionally.  I try, but I often fall short.  I wish you well in what seems to be your unconditional love for this love.

Good question Jim! Sometimes it feels as if this couple takes the church and its' members for granted. Ideally I would love to see this couple finding a way to "pay it forward." 

I made a typo.  The last word was supposed to be couple.

Is it possible to engage them in a question about what kind of a difference they would like to make in the world?  From your posts, you seem to have a keen interest in justice and for faith communities that seem willing to walk with Jesus.  After a check-in in a conversation, perhaps a comment like "I like to make a difference in the world by doing what I can through our church.  I was wondering what kind of a difference you want to make in the world?"

Somegal, do we need to pay it forward through the same organization though?  Many people take from one place, and give to something else.

That thought may be worth it's own thread if anyone wants to run with it.

That's true Chemgal, however in this particular case this couple doesn't pay it forward through any organizations.