I would be talking to your M&P committee.  They most likely will meet with paid staff and might meet with the volunteers as well.

Hope things work out.

Hi somegalfromcan,

 

 

First I would wonder why I am being made a part of the e-mail chain.  If I was on the M&P committee I could see it.  If I have no position of authority in the congregation what is the reason I am being made aware of this information?  I would forward the e-mail exchange to M&P and express my concerns about the matter.

 

 

I would be forwarding the e-mail to M&P as well as pointing out to M&P that the Church is developing an anti-bullying policy and workplace safety processes.  Until those are formalized this behaviour is inappropriate.

 

 

Respond briefly and politely.  Establish boundaries regarding manner of address and inform Alice that you will be forwarding the e-mail to the M&P Committee.

 

 

That is fair.  I would avoid ongoing dialogue over this matter via internet.  

 

I would also want a member of the M&P Committee present at the meeting to address the lack of professional courtesy and the verbal abuse of volunteer workers.

 

 

Jumping to conclusions won't help matters any.  Charlotte may be too hurt or furious to respond civilly to ongoing conversation, particularly if she felt that Bernice had sided with Alice.  Alice may not be responding simply because as a paid employee of the Pastoral Charge she has committed a serious offence that could have serious impact upon her continued employ.  She may only now be exercising wisdom which escaped her previously.

 

 

Always a possibility.  It doesn't really excuse the initial e-mail.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

I would definitely call Charlotte. She must feel like crap.

Somegal, I think I would stay clear of entire situation until M&P have had time to act. Promptly. I hope .Because as careful as people think they are, it does not take long to get out into congregation and then the s**t hits the fan.

Thanks for the advice folks (and please keep it coming).

 

*sigh* I hate having to tattle on people and was hoping not to have to get anyone else involved. Should I send this to the chair of M & P or to Alice's rep (or both)?

 

RevJohn - you asked why I was forwarded this email. I believe it was because I am doing some volunteer work with all three ladies later this month and a portion of the email contained information that was related to that.

I was also thinking somegal that your church has had your share of grief in the past month or so, right? You sure don't need any more.

Agreed Crazyheart! Actually it's been the past 4 months - and part of me is wondering if this is one way that people are taking it out on each other.

HI somegalfromcan,

 

 

Send it to both.

 

 

Fair enough.

 

Strictly speaking you should only have had to deal with information contained to the work you do and not the evidence of anothers lack of professionalism.  That is currently water under the bridge though appropriate channels of reporting need to be re-stated.

 

Rightly or wrongly Charlotte sets engages in the hostility that Alice starts by not going to M&P first.  At minimum it is airing dirty laundry.  Very quickly it escalates to empire building and sides being taken and armies raised.  Already you mention that you feel Bernice has piled on and sides with Alice in attacking Charlotte.  It is no stretch of the imagination for me (though it may not be anything more than a leap in logic) to think that Alice and Bernice being labelled attackers of Charlotte feel you are lining up in opposition to them.

That's two on each side when prior to the e-mail it was one person on each side of the divide.

 

I suspect that you have changed the names to protect the innocent what are the other three up to in their corners of the Church?  Are names being protected there or is the dirty laundry getting special airings to select parties?

 

Ideally M&P can address this quickly and appropriately. 

 

Based on your reporting of events Alice has blown it big-time and seen fit to make sure that there is an electronic copy of her error.  Big mistakes such as this can be forgiven (Alice will have to demonstrate acceptable levels of contrition and humility) or they can be used as planks in building Alice's gallows. 

 

Airing dirty laundry isn't the same as washing it properly.

 

Grace and peace to you.

John

So the old perennial response: "What would Jesus do?"

More than that, what would Jesus read as he reads the e-mail or our discussion? What would Jesus hear from the various voices? How would Jesus respond? How would the mind of Christ understand these things?

We know that Christ would not approve anyone hurting anyone else...

I think pondering these things by "putting on" Christ gives us means of dealing with others and dealing with ourselves using Christ-specific Lifeskills.

Individually or all together, those involved have the capacity to 'present' or 'prophyse' the mind of Christ, which is to say each altogether can precipitate the mind of Christ and utlize it to dsicern what is happening, to rationalize it in Christian terms, then to undertake Christian action for each and all involved. In theory, there should be little acrimony, if those involved agreed to this process... which in theory they have done so through baptism, confirmation and sharing the Lord's supper...

(ps - if anyone may be interested, I did a recent post on Christ-specificity in the Religion and Faith discussion group...)

regards

 

In theory, perhaps. In practice, OTOH, a church is a group of people and, whether they are Christian and trying to follow Christ or UU and trying to live the principles, the psychology and sociology of group dynamics still applies. Due process is what is needed here, as John and others suggest, though hopefully in a church it is done prayerfully and mindfully; in the spirit of Christ, if you wish. Perhaps that is what you are suggesting, though. I'm still learning to parse your posts.

 

Mendalla

 

As an M&P chair, I do agree that the issue should be addressed swiftly by M&P, & would support communicating Alice's rep, with a cc to the chair.  Then step aside & let that group do their job.

 

While I would be concerned about Alice, I am also concerned about Bernice's role in this - from my reading, she has perhaps broken a confidence that Alice (the orignal writer) placed in her, by forwarding the message to others & especially to somegal and Charlotte.  Possibly Alice was just on a rant - ventillating as many of us do from time to time. (I say this not to excuse the behaviour, but to offer possible alternate explanation - also an assumption -  only Alice herself can clarify what was going on.)  

 

Christmas season can be fraught with many stresses even at the best of times, and with the recent upheaval in this congregation, more intensive M&P support and possibly pastoral care may be required. 

@ Carolla

Mendalla

I think we are in sync...

Two things.

Yes it is group dynamics... I have found the approach alluded to as one which can be used at any stage of the processes involved... before vents happen, while they happen and after they happen. What is neat is that I find the approach is user-friendly be the user 4, 40 or eighty years old, be they male or female, literate or illiterate, in pursuit if due process and moving along without it. Of the approaches to group work/management, team work; or on the other hand, to resolving conflict, I have found when used, it is not only easy to use by everyone involved, but also effective.

What has been even more interesting to me is that I can enlist people of different faiths or no faith at help to help me determine the Christ-specifics in the approach. Indeed, I have had people who were not followers, follow or use the Christ-specifics all the same. The approach provided optimal results for them as well....

I find the approach works in practice, where it generates results, more so than in theory... I meant to suggest that when there is acrimony, it may due to the absence of the practice.

regards

Apparently Alice has no rep on M&P (she only works a small number of hours a week), so I am going to talk to the chair. I was doing some volunteer work with some other members of my church today who expressed other, unrelated, concerns about Alice's leadership. Without telling them what was going on, I assured them that I was already planning on spe&aking to the chair of M&P and would bring their concerns with me.

good for you somegal-yes Mand P need to be involved. If Alice has no rep who does she report to? Who does her performance appraisal ? And who can she express her concerns to?

Thank you Tabitha!

 

Alice reports directly to the minister who is currently on sabbatical. While she is away, Alice is supposed to be reporting to RevDavid, but I am unsure as to whether that is actually happening or not. Additionally she reports to our Children, Youth and Families Team - a team that Charlotte and I are both a part of (as is RevDavid while our other minister is away and Bernice often sits in on the meetings). At this point, I do not wish to bring this to that group for a couple of reasons:

 

1) I don't want Alice to think that we are ganging up on her - especially considering that I will be acting as chair for the next meeting. I think it is better if it is handled by a more neutral person or group. I am doing my best to remain neutral, but can totally understand why she might feel that Charlotte and I (and possibly the others on this team) would be teaming up against her.

 

2) We are a small team which is already dealing with an issue that is much bigger than this - and is possibly set to rear its' ugly head again between now and our January meeting due to a court session that is coming up. Dealing with the two issues at once could prove to be overwhelming for most of us.

Ah yes somegal - as such legal issues come to court - and usually to increased media attention again, stress levels can rise.  It's good that you've named this.  Hopefully the congregation & its leadership are continuing to receive support and advice about how to manage through this time. 

Unfortunately Charlotte didn't check her email until last night - and she is angry! She is so upset that she is leaving the congregation, at least temporarily. 

 

In about 30 minutes, I will be getting together with Bernice, Alice and the chair of council (the chair of M&P is unable to attend, but I will be chatting with him soon). It should be "fun." Please say a prayer for us if you read this in the next couple of hours!

Thinking of you somegal and betting you meant "interesting" rather than "fun"

Thanks Tabitha! "Interesting" would have been another good word to use in that sentence. As a side note, Charlotte was invited to this meeting but opted not to attend.

 

Actually the meeting went better than I expected, which is a really good thing. It seems as if Alice and Bernice have genuinely learned some lessons from this. Earlier this afternoon Alice sent Charlotte a very well written apology letter, which Charlotte forwarded on to me. She reiterated just how sorry she was - and that was backed up by her body language. I also re-expressed what my concerns were, and together we created a plan to address them.

I am very concerned that an internal staff/volunteer matter is being discussed in a public forum, especially if the possibility of legal matters is being raised. This should not be happening anywhere in public.

*blinks*

 

Really? Now you're about keeping UCCan staff matters off public forums?

 

 

At this level of identifiable confict, absolutely.

DKS-the legal matters concern another issue not this one.

I think domegal wanted some guidance. I certianly can't id the folks she mentioned-and I know the names were changed.

It's policy and procedure guidance she was needing.

 I am still concerned. It's not an approproiate forum.

Regarding the legal issue, I haven't said anything that hasn't been already made public through the media. It is, however, a totally different issue than this one.

 

I simply came here asking for advice. I received it and have moved forward through the appropriate channels. I'm sorry, DKS, that you feel this was inappropriate. This will simply have to be one of the many things that you and I disagree on. Names were changed (to names which, in my mind, fit well with their personalities) and any identifying features were left out entirely.

I am not sure what I would do, but I know that Bernice's behaviour raises many red flags for me, and I would be suspicious of her behaviour in other aspects/

At the very least I would nevr say anything to her that I would not want broadcasted, and I would avoid being in her presence alone.

 

 

somegal, DKS is a grump.

It's not that David is a grump, it's that he's all wound up about discussing a situation which has been made a generic hypothetical by changing the names of the parties and posting under a pseudonym, yet he's quite happy to trash fellow ministers for insufficient piety on Facebook, of all places. That's what astonishes me.

 

 

I think I will be very guarded around both Alice and Bernice in the future! 

Apples and oranges. A minister's public comments are always open to comment and reflection. It comes with the work. OTOH, HR issues within a church ministry team, even with changed names, should not be discussed in public.

 No, I have boundaries and keep to them.