Do you really want me to answer that?

Flourish… be courageous in faith… be unyielding in love… yearn ever more deeply to open to and enfold experiences of god-among-us and continue to witness the essence and transforming energy of Jesus' teachings.

The United Church has such a wonderful logo, full of profoundly meaningful symbols. I am thinking of having one made of stained glass for the main door to our house.

My prayer for the United Church would be to live up to the meanings of its logo.

I love the meanings of it's logo, however, I had to magnify my screen to 200% to get a better look at the symbols. It looks like a  Scottish coat of arms a bit. I never took too much notice of it before. I would vote for modernizing the logo...however, that's not my prayer for the United Church. My prayer would also be that it it lives up to the symbols of it's logo...continues where it's doing well and improves where it needs to. Particularly the efforts towards peace and justice.

 God,I ask that you hold this church in the palm of your hand. Guide the leaders in your truth and wisdom and give them strength to continue to carry your message of love, compassion and mercy to those who will hear. May Your will be done and continued through it's body of people who continue to be as servants to one another and to the world in your name. Amen

(it's crude I know, but please accept my sincere hope that the United Church will continue to flourish)

I'd pray for the United Church to find unity in its diversity and that all who dwell in its tent find a way to work together to find God's will for the church regardless of individual differences in theology. In other words, as others have suggested, to live up to that coat of arms and particularly the motto.

Mendalla

Kimino-there is a plan to update the United Church's crest-to cahnge the background colours to red, yellow, white, black and to add a saying in Mohawk-in recognition of the First canadians.

I got your back, Jae.

Our Father, who art in heaven,

I know you're up there.

Thy United Church,

Has gone and put,

Their Moderator on a VIA train.

Get her freeloading ass off it,

And forgive her her trespasses,

As we forgive those who believe wrongfully.

And lead us not into UCCan churches,

But deliver us from Gretta.

For thine is the kingdom,

Of Baptists and their glory,

For ever and ever.

Amen.

Arminius - here is a stained glass version from Duncan United in Duncan, BC.

Here is another picture to make it easier for people to see what is on the crest:

My prayer for the United Church of Canada would be that its' leaders, members and adherents continue to carry out the work of God in this country and abroad. Secondly I would pray that in this General Council year, we would choose a moderator who will represent the church in the best possible way.

I love the UCC crest just as it is, although a few words or a symbol from the First Nations would enhance it.   The fish shape; the cross in the center reminding us that Christ is the center; the use of both official languages of this country; the symbols from the three founding churches, the burning bush, the open Bible, the Spirit coming down like a dove; Alpha and Omega; and the motto taken from the Gospel of John:   That all may be one - reminding us that we are a uniting church.  

My prayer would be that we continue to be a uniting church, working with others to unite us in harmony (not sameness) with one another, with the earth our home, and with the Spirit that lives among us, and that we continue to follow Jesus in worship and in service.  Let us draw on our roots and spread our wings.  Give us vision, give us courage, give us love.   

Why omit brown?

Good and gracious God,

I thank you for the United Church of Canada.

Thank you for all who have found a spiritual home there.

I thank you for the church's ministries.

I thank you for the church's missions.

I thank you for the church's call to social justice.

God whose name is love,

I pray that you will bless the United Church.

I ask that you would lead its people to know you more and better each day.

I pray for love, peace, and compassion to continue to fill its people.

I pray this all in Jesus' name,

Amen.

MC-because Brown is not one of the 4 traditional native colours. It is to honour the first nations.

MorningCalm,

What a lovely prayer!

Thank you ... P3

Ah... okay thanks, Tabitha, now I get it.

I thought we were talking about skin colours of the world.

Thanks for clarifying Tabitha.   I was wondering why they would be changing the colours.  I generally don't like 'change for the sake of change'.   I'm more of a 'don't fix it if it ain't broke' type of person.   But now I know the reason, I agree with the change.

My prayer is that the national church will find and accept a unifying sense of purpose with the power to energize and lift up its members.

You can see the proposed new crest in this month's observer. Besides the four colour background replacing the navy, the Mohawk phrase for "all my relations" is added to one of the arms of the banner.

And I pray for wisdom, healing, right relations and reconcilation where there are not, for our children and youth that they find a new way of being church that resonates with them, for gentle guidance from our senior members who have so many years of faithful wisdom and witness to share.

I have to say that I'm a bit puzzled as to why the United Church wants to put Native colours on to its crest.

I understnd that the Natives were in this land first. Putting Native colours on the crest would seem to be a way of recognizing that, and I suppose that's honorable.

However, it seems to me that for a denomination to put Native colours on would seem to suggest some kind of a link to Native spirituality. In what way is this appropriate for a Christian church?

Please note that I am not criticizing, just seeking understanding.

[quote=MorningCalm]

I have to say that I'm a bit puzzled as to why the United Church wants to put Native colours on to its crest.

I understnd that the Natives were in this land first. Putting Native colours on the crest would seem to be a way of recognizing that, and I suppose that's honorable.

However, it seems to me that for a denomination to put Native colours on would seem to suggest some kind of a link to Native spirituality. In what way is this appropriate for a Christian church?

Please note that I am not criticizing, just seeking understanding.

[/quote}

It's appropriate to the United Church's participation in the Truth and Reconcilliation Commission and symbolic to attempting to make amends for  the tragic history and legacy of residential schools, UCC's desire to right the wrongs and live in mutual understanding and right relationship with First Nations people. It's about being able to be different from others, yet live together with others in peace and respect.

In Christian words, I think it's about the hope that the lion can lay down with the lamb, which is about living peacefully side by side, honouring  everyone's right to be.

MC- you may not know that we have a native conference as well. 

A conference is a court of the church-in order of size it's congregation-pastoral charge-presbytery-conference then General Council.

We amended our crest to include both french and english words, as our nation recognized 2 founding nations. It's appropriate to also add native colours and words. The language Mohawk was chosen as they were the first native group the forebears of what became the UC of C.

One of our Moderators-Stan Mackay was Metis.

Aha, that's exactly what I proposed a few years ago!

I didn't know that either. Thanks Tabitha.

To add, that's my perception when I think about the reason for the new crest. colours.

Beautiful. Thanks, somegalfromcan!

What you gals probably are aware of is that the pointed oval, aligned vertically, is overtly feminine. It is known as the vesica pisces in Latin and symbolizes the feminine principle in spirituality. It is a universal spiritual symbol that pre-dates Christianity, all the way back to ancient Egypt. In the Islamic culture it is know as Baraka, which is the Arabic word for Grace. The Baraka also is a common, universal, mystical vision.

Because it is a universal symbol for feminine spirituality, and a symbol for divine Grace, and a common mystical vision, thats why I pray that the symbolism of its crest may come true for the United Church of Canada. 

Glad you like it Arminius - I thought it might serve as inspiration for you.

The descending dove, above the X of the crest, vividly reminds me of part IV of T.S. Eliot's poem LITTLE GIDDING:

The dove descending breaks the air

With flame of incandescent terror

Of which the tongues declare

The one discharge from sin and error.

The only hope, or else despair

Lies in the choice of pyre or pyre—

To be redeemed from fire by fire.

Who then devised the torment? Love.

Love is the unfamiliar Name

Behind the hands that wove

The intolerable shirt of flame

Which human power cannot remove.

We can only live, only suspire

Consumed by either fire or fire.

Then there is the fire, Moses' burning bush, to the right of the X. And to the left of the X is the Bible.

The X probably represents St. Andrew's cross, the cross he was crucified on. But the X also stands for Christ, for the person of Jesus and the Christ spirit or archetype, the archetype for universal, unitive and unconditional love: Agape.

The Alpha and Omega intertwined at the bottom symbolize, for me, the union betweeen opposites and also the famous passage from Rev 21:5 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.

And I love the newly added four colour background, symbolizing the four sacred directions of Canadian aboriginal spirituality. And, of course, their sacred benison: All my relations. This not only honours Canada's first spirituality but also adds to the universal spiritual symbolism of the crest.

I absolutely love the UCC crest! It speaks to me with a power that is far beyond words.

I've just checked out the proposed changes to the crest in the Observer.   It will take a bit of getting used to, but it is quite nice.  I like that they have retained the dark blue (navy) background in one section.   The only problem is the top (white) section with the white dove.   To me it looks unfinished - like an art project with one section still to be coloured or embrodered or whatever.   I'm trying to think how to overcome this and still retain the white as a colour, and the dove as the symbol of the Spirit and of Methodism.   Perhaps more shading, more relief?   

What will happen to all the stained glass, banners, cloths, pennants, earrings, plates, etc. that we have in our churches and homes with the present crest - presuming this one is adopted.   I'm thinking that they will remain in their places and over the years the new crest will be incorporated to light another window, hang on another wall - be highlighted in a new sanctuary - and gradually replace those items that fade, wear out, get broken, until it is more generally used than the present one.    (For several years in the 1980s we used recycled bulletin covers with the crest minus the French.)    

ps   I just noticed that the stained glass window above doesn't have the French.

In most places (congregations particularly) the new crest will not even be noticed.  Given the number of english only crests out there on paraments and wall decorations, I doubt people will really worry about updating to a new colour scheme.

In official use, yes it will change, but in much of the life the church---not so much

Being friendly and respectful of one's neighbours is of course always good and to be commended, however I do not know that that should mean that one needs to identify quite so closely with their traditional belief systems. Christians, for example, should live in peace with Muslims, but I don't think we need to be incorporating their religious symbols into ours.

The other situation you mentioned, Kimmio, is not something I feel I can speak that much on as my denomination was not involved. Perhaps what went on does warrant the colour-inclusion.

Christian words. I hope not just a Christian concept.

Its hard to change a stained glass window once its been installed, or to take down a banner that the senior ladies spent 100 hours creating.   Or to discard the broach that a Sunday School gave a teacher after 30 years of service.    These deserve to be retained as historic symbols.

But I would hope that next year we see a bulletin cover with the new crest (if it is adopted).   Then someone will make a banner or wall hanging for their sanctuary - it will be hung on the opposite wall to the one already in place.   The UC book room will have plates, jewellry, notepaper, etc. with the new crest.   Eventually it will become familiar - or it will fall by the wayside if people feel strongly about the old one and don't 'take to' the new.    

Funny statement to make about a religion that has borrowed so much from others over the years. However, that's a discussion for R&F, not Church Life, me thinks so I won't derail this thread with it.

Mendalla

You're welcome P3, and thank you for your kind words. It's always good to uplift other children of God.

Hi MorningCalm:

It is quite likely that the founders of the UCC crest didn't even know that the vesica pisces is the Islamic symbol for Grace. It has been used as a Christian symbol for centuries or millenia, and is still very much in use in the Roman Catholic Church, where the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, is frequently depicted inside a vesica pisces. The pointed arch, the most prominent feature of gothic architecture, is also derived from the vesica pisces.

The vesica pisces does, among others, symbolize the vulva of the Goddess. Every gothic cathedral in Christendom has a pointed arch over the windows and entrance ways. Entering the cathedral was to symbolize a divine conception, exiting the cathedral a divine birth. (please forgive the sexually explicit language, it was necessary to make my point)

The vesica pisces has been a common and universal mystical vision since pre-historic times and essentially is inter-faith and inter-denominational.

In my previous congregation, nobody knew the crest very well or gave any thought to its meanings. I don't think it is much different in my new congregation, where the crest is not prominently displayed.

Nobody seems to share my enthusiasm for the crest.

While the shape of the UCC crest may have symbolic meanings in other contexts, I was taught, and have taught, that it is in the shape of a fish, an early Christian symbol standing for the Greek words for Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour.   It is the shape of the Jesus fish that many Christians have on their automobiles or wear as jewellry.   

I don't understand congregations not being familiar with the crest.  It kept coming up in the Sunday School curriculum when I taught.   I've referred to it in sermons.   It's on a bulletin cover almost ever year.   Many of the churches I visit as a lay worship leader have it as a wall hanging, and most have it on their outside signs.  

Not as familiar as the cross perhaps, but quite familiar and recognizable.  

Seeler - I have taught Sunday School for years, but have never taught the children about the crest as the curriculum we use focusses on the Bible Stories and is designed to be used by anyone of any denomination. Also, our congregation - like many others - creates our own bulletin covers, instead of the ones produced by the United Church. As a Sunday School teacher, I don't get to hear many of the sermons, so I have no idea how often the ministers refer to the crest in their sermons. We do have the crest displayed in our common area, but after awhile, you stop noticing things that are hung on the wall - they become a backdrop for the human drama that plays out in front of them. Having said all that, I honestly can't remember the last time I really thought about the crest (before this thread opened up, that is).

Somegal - your post prompted me to open a new thread about the use (or not) UCC materials.

Yes, seeler, the fish, or fish bladder (vesica pisces), is one of the early Christian symbols. The fish is usually depicted as a pointed oval aligned horizontally, sometimes with a tail at the end, and is an exclusively Christian symbol. But the pointed oval aligned vertically has multiple meanings, is used by several Christian denominations and sects as well as non-Christian religions, and is frequently seen in sacred art.

The Ordo Templi Orientis (a Christian Gnostic sect), for instance, has the pointed oval, aligned vertically in double outline, with the descending dove and a chalice in the centre, as its logo. And, as I already pointed out, in the Islamic/Arabic culture, the vertically aligned pointed oval is the Baraka, a symbol for grace.

Hi MorningCalm,

Like yourself this is where I scratch my head a bit.

The crest of The United Church of Canada speaks very strongly to our faith heritage, in particular those expressions of Christianity which came together in the Union of 1925.

The official heraldic meanings are found here:

http://www.united-church.ca/history/crest

Notes of interest include the fact that the crest first appeared in 1944 and that there have been emendations made to the crest since then.  The most recent change being the inclusion, in 1980, of the name of the denomination in French.

It was decided at GC-40 in Kelowna that The United Church of Canada should recognize the significance and contributions of our first nations brothers and sisters to the overal quality and life of the denomination.  It is a very warm-hearted decision though it may be a little soft-headed.

Changing the blue-field to the various colours of the compass is a relatively minor change (visually similar to adding the French language).

My only concern has been that such a move gives the appearance that Native Sprituality is roughly uniform (all First Nations groups believe the same thing) when I doubt that it actually is.  I mean, the various denominations that came together at Union were all Christian but they were not all the same so why would say the spirituality of West Coast peoples be the same as those of the plains and the Eastern Forests?

I am also mindful that the practice of the Residential Schools was very much against the embracing of diversity.  It was the inclusion strategy of the oppressor which ground down and wiped out living memory which led to much of the mixing of traditions.  I am concerned that the changes to the blue-field will ultimately lead us to "forget" that history.

It is a complicated issue.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Who designed the UCCanada crest in the first place? Why did they decide to make it look like a... anyone know?

If it's meant to be the Christian fish symbol, where is the tail? Sorry, I'm not buying that one.

There is a bit more information at http://www.united-church.ca/history/crest, MC.

I do remember reading an interview with the Rev. Dr. Mooney, the creator of the crest, in which he talked about the oval shape being present to remind us of the fish. I'll see if I can dig it out of my files.

Christ's peace - r

MC - since you are a Baptist no one is asking you to 'buy' anything about the UCC.   But whether you 'buy' it or not since it was first introduced the Crest has been in the shape of a fish.   

Hi MorningCalm:

I think the four indigenous sacred colours and the sacred benison "all my relations" (if it indeed goes in) were included to acknowledge and honour indigenous spirituality as Canada's first spirituality. Indigenous religious practices and stories did vary widely from East to West, as revjohn pointed out, but were similar inasmuch as they all were nature religions, similar to indigenous religions elsewhere on our planet.

The United Church may also wish to distance itself from the Christian imperalism of a dark and not so distant past, and express its sorrow and regret over Christian imperialist practices. The inclusion of some of the spiritual symbols of Canada's First Nations on the UCC crest could be seen as an expression of that sorrow and regret.

What makes First Nations spirituality truly grand and exemplary is that it is a wholly spiritual culture. It is my sincere hope that the United Church, by including First Nations symbols in its crest, states its aspiration to and support of a global, spiritual, human culture. 

This does not mean that we have to forgo our Christian traditions and become part of a global melting pot. Like the indigenous religions of our ancestors, each group or tribe can have its own stories and traditions while being part of a wider global spiritual culture.

This, of course, means acknowledging that the spiritual traditions of other groups are as valid as ours. I trust that the interfaith symbolism of the UCC crest means just that.

Yes, I would tend to agree, spirituality would be expressed in different ways in different places and different cultures.

History is best not forgotten lest in some cases it be repeated (not necessarily by the UCCanada).

Yes, John, it would seem so, and I pray for your denomination as you consider these important matters.

Thank you Richard, and I look forward to reading the Rev. Dr. Mooney interview if you can find it.

Yes, I am a Baptist, however I have important ties to the UCCanada.

My mother is a member, as is my sister and her husband and children. My grandparents were members, as was one of my aunts, and another of my relatives (as I'm sure I've mentioned on here before) was a UCCanada missionary to South Korea.

Of course, I myself was a one-time member of the denomination, and am a regular contributor here at wondercafe.

MC - obviously you have left the UCC for a denomination that better suits your temperment and theology.   therefore no one is asking you to 'buy' anything about the UCC.  You left.  Remember?   You aren't a member any longer.   You are still welcome, you could return if you wished, but while on the outside you don't have to 'buy' anything.  

... still welcome? ...could return?