Very cool! I found my church.  I was surprised to learn that there are no United Churches in Nunavut.

Quick, build a church!  Millions of square kilometres of tundra has no idea that the bible may or may not be metaphorical!

Interesting...  I have walked past the second-most northern United Church several times earlier this year.

LOL - I`ll get right on that! Maybe I should start evangelizing to those heathen polar bears too!

holy toledo - look at the GTA.  Now, I ask, in this day and age, are we making best use of our resources??? 

Polar bears are too smart to be evangelized.  Try the seals.

LOL - I`ll try the whales too.

Are you crazy?  People can't communicate with whales.

I knew that in a short drive (the distance I drive to my own church) that I could hit more than half a dozen churches, but I think this just made me ill. There are 20+ pastoral charges (not churches- but pastoral charges with 2-3 churches in each) all within an hour drive of me. They will likely have an average congregation of 20 or less, very few will be about 30-35... except for the bigger town churches (which means we can exclude maybe 4 congregations).

It makes me wonder how serious the UC is about stewardship.  How does this mass of churches, each using electricity and maybe gas serve the earth? 

LOL - clearly you`ve never seen the movie Whale Rider!

I forgot to mention the (to me) senseless waste of time and money as well.  What point is there in many congregations raising cash to pay there bills when they could easily join with another congregation?

But, alas, it's not up-to-date. Our congregation (Crossroads, in Kingston ON), merged the former St. Margaret's with Queen St. United almost a year ago, but both the former pastoral charge names are still listed, even though they no longer exist. Time to update!  (At least WC's church search feature is updated - they were very prompt in processing the new information).

No, no, no... You need to take your lessons from Dory on Finding Nemo...

Heeeelloooooo whaaaaalllllleesssss.......  Aaaacceeppttt Chrrriiiiisssstttt!!!!

That`s too funny yw!!!

somegalfromcan

There was a house church for a while, our church was sort of a sister church.  It ebbs and flows, depending on who is stationed there.

IT

Russ

Suddenly, I am able to channel the thoughts of whales:

Wait a second - you went from believing people can't communicate with whales to channeling their thoughts??? If this is true, just imagine the possibilities - the other beliefs that can be changed!  

I count nine congregations in my own immediate community which aren't pinned. Makes me wonder how many others aren't there.

Given that the largest number of United Church members are in Toronto Conference, it makes sense.

Honestly what surprises me most is the amount of space in Canada that has not been reached by the United Church yet.

Right on...and you obviously don't know the work of Jim Nollman who communicates with whales on a regular basis...and they talk back.

Jim coaxed 3 grey whales out of harm's way when they were in danger of being trapped in ice several years ago in Alaska.

Heck, there are folks in NL and Labrador who think I communicate with whales because when I am on the water in a boat the whales come calling.

How could we know that vast areas of Canada haven't been reached by the UC?  Vast areas don't really have any people in them.

In the northern parts of some provinces I bet you could drive a hundred miles or more and find no sign of living people.  Just trees, rocks and power lines.

That is interesting. I live in an area that is more sparsely populated. There are four pastoral charges in this immediate area. There is the church I attend and the other three that are about an hour to an hour and a half away. There has been talk of somehow joining two together somehow with a shared minister.......kind of a two point charge. There has also been talk in Presbytery of sharing the clergy resources around Presbytery a bit better. It would be a challenge, but doable. The other two pastoral charges in this area are shared ministries.

I agree with Jae's response. On the other hand, living in one of the areas that is geographically big, I see some of the challenges. Fatigue and burn-out being probably the biggest. Weather is an issue as is geography. I suppose this is where creativity comes into play.

How can the church reach out to people in such as-yet-untouched places?

I'm funny, but I'm not stupid.

Neat map.  It seems to show pastoral charges, NOT churches.  So I get one mark for my two churches.  In reality, then, there are actually quite a few more churches than are shown on this map.

Nope. There are still several pastoral charges which are NOT on this map. They are active congregations, with vital ministries. Missing in action. The MIA I count include:

Tobermory (Bruce, Hamilton,

Kemble (Northern Waters, Toronto)

Knox, Owen Sound (Northern Waters, Toronto)

Walters Falls - Temple Hill (Northern Waters, Toronto)

Southhampton (Bruce, Hamilton)

Port Elgin (Bruce, Hamilton)

Cape Croker (NM) is way off location.

And that is just in my own area!

ok, so it ain't perfect.  But still good enough for food for thought.

I'm also thinking of the reality that sometimes small congregations are vital & awesome.  Though the 'resource' question should still be addressed. 

The GTA though could have a couple of really large churches (after all, once they're big, bigger is not much different), and why not have smaller groups of pastoral communities - the folks who have been their own church for ages & ages.  Of course some will stand alone.  And I'm talking off the top of my head knowing how big and how off-base and how flaky I sound.  

(insert sarcasm) - If only people would just listen to me...!!!!

@ somegalfromcan & Chansen - rotfl - you guys are too funny

I can't seem to find my pastoral charge, or any others in this city - in fact I can only find a few in the whole of the province, although there are a lot of balloons, and I am aware of a lot of pastoral charges (and even more individual churches) in this presbytery, as well as in neighbouring presbyteries.   Most of the balloon's that I click on give me a small pastoral charge in a neighbouring province (NS).

But I like the big picture.  We seem to have pastoral charges in almost all of the populated areas of Canada - although I would have thought there might be one somewhere around Rankine Inlet on Baffin Island.  Does anybody know if we have a presence of outreach there?

Interesting to see Burmuda included.  It is part of Maritime Conference that also covers three provinces and part of Quebec.

Nice map. Clearly shows that in some places there is opportunity to amalgamate to be more efficient. After all, church is not about the building..

Thanks for the list, David. I'll send it to Rich for updating.

The map is based on the mailing addresses of pastoral charges (so, that may account for wrong 'locations' in this map).

The Nunavut location, as RussP mentioned, is not 'fixed': people meet in private homes or halls, I've been told.

Many pastoral charges in the United Church although having more than one congregation or building  have a single mailing address, and that is the location shown on this map. So no, it doesn't display every physical church building, but rather, it attempts to provide a broad graphic image of where United Church communities of faith are located throughout Canada. Also, the map is not dynamic, and therefore just provides a "snapshot" at a particular time. The Google application itself may also present limitations to the information displayed.

So, with those caveats accepted, it presents a useful image of the United Church, and thank you to those of you who have expressed appreciation for it.

jwr, at the General Council Office

oh boo - I got this message when I tried the link just now ...

You do not have permission to view this map.

The map is not designated as 'public'; confer with the map creator about this setting

Seems the atheists & baptists have had a peek ... but not poor old UCC me! 

There, there.  It's OK.  Just have faith that the map exists.  I've seen it, and that should be good enough for you.

carolla - I just got the same message - I'm not authorized to view the map.  Apparently a few hours ago I was. 

Several people have commented that because of the number of pastoral charges perhaps we should be looking at amalgamation.  I don't see it that way.  In some cases while on this map they might appear close together, they may be many miles apart, spread out over loosely populated areas.  In other cases where there are churches in close proximity, there may be differences in the congregations that makes it difficult or impossible to consider joining them. 

For instance, in this city there are six UC churches, each a separate charge - three on each side of the river.  The one I attend and its sister church are only a few blocks apart and yes we do work together on some things.  But - one church with Presbyterian roots tends to be very formal in its worship and very conservative in its theology - the other with deep Methodist roots is known for its liberalism and its outreach.  When we joined together for worship this summer, those of the GLBT community said that they felt very uncomfortable or didn't go during the month we worshiped in the first church.  Both of these churches are quite large by Maritime standards.   The third on this side of the river is small (less than 100).  Some might question the reason for its existance since it is usually struggling.  But some people really like, and need, a small church where they can get to know everybody and feel involved - rather than lost in the crowd at the larger churches.  Also it is the most liberal in its theology, and has the largest ratio of people active in Presbytery and Conference, and despite its ongoing financial worries it contributes far above its share to M & S.   I don't know about the churches on the other side of the river.  Perhaps two could be combined, but one of those is already part of a pastoral charge that has a point in the nearby rural area.  

One on each side of the river might make sense on paper - but we in the UCC are known for our differences - to join would probably mean that we tried to become middle of the road, all things to all people, and people on each end of the scale would be left out.

Seeler,

We have five churches within 25 km radius, four of them will not have a minister as of next June, four of them can't afford more than a part time minister, most of them have 50 people or less attending on a Sunday, avarage age in all of them is about 75yrs.

Now there are two options: Keep going and thinking that "a new minister" will bring in young people (my congregation has already been through that stage with the last minister-it didn't work)- or be proactive.

I just look at the congrgation and know that if nothing changes, in 15 yrs from now, most the people who have the "say" right know , will likely not be there anymore.

There is a time in parenting, when you have to give the "steering wheel" to the younger generation, because it's their future- and this should be the wisdom of the older ones in the congregation, too.

Mrsanteater - I didn't mean to imply that there are not churches, and whole pastoral charges, that need to look at amalgamation or closing - that is happening in this Presbytery, especially in the rural areas.  Partly due to declining population and fewer interested people, and also partyl because good roads and means of transportation means that people are able and willing to travel further, into the bigger villages and towns for shopping, school, post office, recreation, and worship rather than every crossroads having these services.    

What I meant was that you can't look at a map and see a lot of churches and say, 'they are not needed, they are not a good use of resources, they should be closed.   Many of these churches serve a real need.  

Rather than deploring how many - I felt pleased when I looked at that map and saw that people throughout the populated parts of Canada have a church to attend. 

LMAO chansen!  Thanks for that - I have great faith - in you, existance of maps, other stuff ...

How do you draw that conclusion? You don't know the congregations or the communities.

And why does everyone think "amalgamation" is some kind of magic bullet that will fix the church? I serve an amalgamated congregation. It's no magic bullet.

I suggest it's an incomplete snapshot. I found another congregation not there: Lakefield - Young's Point (Peterborough, Bay of Quinte)

LOL - I had to try!    So, what are those whales telling you?

One of them had a near-death-experience (NDE) on a beach, but was saved by the Holy Spirit...or possibly the tide came in.

Ok, so, is it better to have a map....with some errors noting how it is calculated, ie mailing address, or not have one at all.

I'm going to guess someone generated this one, it was identified as not perfect, possibly wasn't authorized for public viewing, and so was removed from public viewing.

Too bad.

 Hopefully it will come back with the worship address as compared to mailing address.

For clarity, are we mentioning whole pastoral charges that are missing or congregations? My understanding is that it is charges.

I would not say amalgamation is a fix for the church or congregations. The same way that a cast does not fix a broken leg. Bones knitting together does. The cast does not guarantee it will happen. Also, if you have a cast and do not allow the healing (walking on it, jumping...), then you cannot blame the bones or the cast. Also, if you keep jumping off roofs when the bones knit, you will likely have another broken leg.

Amalgamation is not a cure it is a treatment option. If they do not come together they cannot expect it to work. If after amalgamating, one still does not feel/act vital, do not have funds, resists change, does not want to offer Sunday school, does not make an imprint on community... how are a few more years or a few more funeral services not going to create the same? Another broken leg...

For me, if I have a home I cannot keep or manage, afford or that is too big... it is prudent to downsize or it may be a necessity. My spiritual advisor would also tell me that painful reality. They would not tell me based on the architecture that I should keep it. They would not tell me someone would come along to help me with things. They would also not tell me to spend what I have and when I am out of money then I am.

Charges, not congregations, but whole charges who together cannot afford clergy and that at joint services attract less than 40 people, who cut phone service to save money...  are dead or dying. The funeral service may not have been delivered but they are dying. If they want to just be permitted to die with dignity that is fine. If they want to dream a cure will be found, let them. Let them think the "new young folks" are just outside the door ready to come in and rescue them at any minute. Let them spend all the money and when they are broke let them deal with it then.

My problem is, for how long do you support and encourage them? Do you spend money on pipe dreams and frivolity or quack treatments or just in postponing the eventual death?

What about when the reality is that the time for treatment may have been long ago? 

Amalgamation of two dying congregations is like giving someone a lung transplant with the lungs of someone who was a smoker, had lung cancer or emphysema... it helps for the short time.... but, in the long run, is a waste of time, energy, effort and hope.

I know of one congregation with less than 10 people on any given Sunday (5 for Remembrance Day) who have spent over $40,000 in the last couple years in renovations... for what?

If I spoke to any advisor, realtor, and said I wanted to do 40K in renovations, they would tell me that I am never going to recoup that if no person is in the market for my home type. They may tell me to do what is necessary versus what I would want if funds were of no importance.

If I want to spend that much to make my time there more pleasant, more enjoyable, to do something with all my spare money laying around... that can be healthy.  If I am doing it to feel alive, vital, important... then it may not be healthy. If I am going to then complain about the heating bills and the other money stuff, it is not healthy.  If I am doing it based on delusions, then it is delusional. But, ultimately, I can suit myself.

If I want to make my place the better place so hopefully when my brother or sister needs a place that they would willingly pick my place instead of me going to theirs, or be forced to, that too is my choice. They might think it not too brotherly or sisterly. They might also die or choose a different place, but ultimately it is my choice.

Others would likely have trouble explaining how it is rational, healthy....that is "Christ's work" or very "Christian" even.... or good stewardship.... and some may not not bother trying to.

IMO It is none of those.

 I tried and this is all I can get.

One of the interesting side effects of the new central payroll system is that when a charge can't make payroll, the presbytery is alerted and a dialogue follows, including tough questions.

I cant get it now either, Dont feel bad ,carolla. I know it was there. I saw it yesterday.

Was it swimming in the Holy See???