Why do the fundamentalists have all the great music?

Nope it is the devil that has all the good music.

I disagree with the opening premise.  There is much good music (and a lot of really bad) in both classic and new hymnody.   And there is a lot of other options out there that have not been n any UCCan book.

It is my suspicion that the era of the hymn book is passing.

It isn't just the fundamentalists who have all the good music. We evangelicals sing some mighty pretty tunes as well.

And, actually, there are some songs in Voices United that I really do like as well (I don't really know More Voices).

i'm UCC, and we sing all kinds of music styles in our congregation... in fact, we do so many that some of the older crowd started complaining, and now we have to do at least one traditional song every service.

in a few weeks, the youth group is going to do 'wavin flag' as part of the service.  we have a recorder choir that performs every so often... at christmas time, their rendition of 'the huron carol' is pretty much a staple now.  we had a bunch of choir members do a pretty good rendition of norman greenbaums 'spirit in the sky' one sunday.   one of my friends performed 'good mother' by jann arden on mothers day a few years back, it was beautiful.  and our chancel choir has some amazing soloists, who have done everything from 'closer to fine' by the indigo girls to 'down to the river to pray' from the movie 'oh brother where art thou?'.

come on, jobam... just cause it isn't in 'voices united' or 'more voices' doesn't mean it is forbidden in the church, for crying in the sink...  if you like the music at some other church, then just bring it to your church and sing it yourself.  you'd be surprised to know that there isn't some law somewhere that says you can't sing a song that is performed in a 'fundamentalist' church....

You can't divorce the music from the lyrics, and most lyrics in fundamentalist churches are truly disgustingly awful.

We had a large funeral this week. One of the hymns was VU 232, Joyful, Joyful, We Adore You, adapted from Beethoven's 9th Symphony Opus 125. We have a glorious pipe organ. With 200 voices in the congregation and the organ at full throttle,  God was praised and the Resurrection proclaimed. No praise band and contemporary music could even come close. That's great music that speaks to the soul. And it's not something the fundamentalists have. You MIGHT come close with "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory" or "Will Your Anchor Hold", but not quite.  

Nothing wrong with singing "Onward Christian Soldiers" once in a while, either.

All the good music?

Bach was a fundamentalist? Richafort? Handel? The fundies own ALL these guys now?

Not just 'fundamentalists', but often more conservative churches have more appealing music.  Many of the early rock singers got their start singing gospel music.  In some 'pentecostal' circles, their music is closely akin to early rock and roll.  They're not afraid to 'get down and boogie' in the name of the Lord.  I've been to services where they've gravitated toward country and western style music.  They're not afraid to hand clap or toe tap or get involved with the music. There was a song we used at camp and in informal settings called, "We have a King Who Rides A Donkey" sung to the tune of "What Shall We Do With A Drunken Sailor". (I had a Mennonite guy REALLY tell me off for that, and then he mumbled something in low German.  I answered him in high German, and he took off.)  Again, how does Marshall McLuhan's "The Medium Is The Message" relate to the choice of music for worship?  Music is an active rather than a passive activity.  It's like the difference between going to a symphony concert (which I've attended frequently) and a good old rock concert (which I've attended frequently.)  Whoppi Goldberg's role in Sister Act wasn't just good comedy but may have a message for the church. 
 

good grief, we have the hand clapping thing weekly...  when we do the kids' recessional to sunday school, the song has clapping and shouting and stomping and the whole bit.

and for the weekly recessional, we do 'you shall go out with joy', and clap all through the chorus.

again, not something specific to any one type of church there.

eesh, i don't like that one much.  and there is one called 'there is a balm in gillead' or somesuch thing that always makes me laugh to sing it...

'there is a BOMB in gillead..... RUUUNNNNN!!!!'

I don't think that they have all the great music. There's plenty in VU (not that I know it all that well) and in the UU hymnbook, Singing the Living Tradition (SLT for short). What they do have is an attitude and approach to the music that is more open to letting the music move them and feeling the Spirit move in the music. There are times and songs where that would be appropriate in other churches, too. In my UU fellowship, we certainly clap and even move around a bit in some of the gospel and spiritual tunes that are used in SLT (often with alternate lyrics more suited to a liberal church). I have yet to see this happen in my UCC but, as I've commented before, it's a very formal service with a traditional liturgy and most hymns and anthems accompanied on the organ (my UU fellowship uses piano and occasionally guitar). That format just doesn't lend itself to lighter spiritual and gospel music, let alone having clapping and dancing (though the music can still move you in other ways).

My question in all of this is why do we wrestle with this separation of contemporary and traditional? In my UU fellowship, we can have "We are a gentle, angry people" by Holly Near (yes, it's in our hymnbook) and a traditional 17th century hymn in the same service. If the music and lyrics fit the tone and theme of a particular service, why worry about when it was written or who wrote it?

Mendalla

Amen Mendalla

In fact I think we nee to intentionally try and mix muscial styles and eras in our worship experience.  But not set up a quota system, rather just get used to aiming for a mix and get it to come organically.

The fundamentalists are heavy on very  rhythmic and  joyful musice - rather like barn dance music. In fact, much of it has country music origins. Both style and music are so  oreinted because the chuch it itsel is heavily oriented toward simiplistic notion of beating up on the devil, and going to heaven. We're marching to Zion, beauiful, beautiful Zion....

To them, Christianity is essentially a means of getting to heaven. (I''ll get to heaven and you won't...) That, I think, misses the point of our faith.

There's a place for that kind of music in United churches. Say, once a sunday. But it's quite a trick to do get either the congregation to do it without it sounding like a dirge,

To get the sound of it, listen to a DVD of The Montreal Jubilation Choir.

graeme

"The fundamentalists"

:'P

Jobam's choice of music in opening thread all sounds the same to me.

Wow - thanks for the comments.  One of my concerns about bringing in outside music is the words - UCC spends so much time on inclusive language that it does limit what is acceptable.  Yes, we can have the odd one where Christ and God is a "he" but it has its limitations as to how much of this we do.

I can't abide hymns with crap theology... it's FAITH music after all and if it is going to trash my faith, I don't want to be there. I NEED inclusive language if the words are going to let me worship. I am with RevMatt on this, all the way up there.

Most of the "good old" hymns appal me. Onward Christian Soldiers and The Old Rugged Cross, etc make me feel my head is being twisted loose. And then there are cliche things I find intensely irritating like "I Will Bear You Up on Eagles Wings... "Church in the Valley"  and ... no....no more... its bringing tears to my eyes thinking about it.

Then we come to the music. I am helped by music that evokes beauty, hope, thought, awe, love, trust... sorry Joejack, I do not think that "What Shall We Do With A Drunken Sailor" has the greatest melodic line ever written.

Music is ALWAYS going to be a big issue because music plays such different roles in our lives: for some it is a aesthetic pursuit, for others it is social, some use it to key into their identity, for others it is just noise to plug gaps of relative silence. Some people understand music, most of us do not because it is not really taught very widely or well as we grow up. 

But cowboy crowing and geetaar thumping defy every rational definition of music I can think of. I would find a sound effects track from a abattoir more uplifting  -- it is okay, I am just expressing my personal taste -- again, they are sounds that prevent me from entering into worship.

JUST CURIOUS: Why do cowboy-type singers do those drawn out, nasal vowels?

Is that why cowboys were forever shooting each other? THAT I could understand.

Their is no youth tradition in music. almost every generation will pick up its own style, and reject yesterday's style of rockers as old fashioned. The emotion they show is real, but the reason h as more to do with acceptance of the crowd. Kids are highly conformist.

Sometimes it can  get rough. My old school was full of apprentice Italian mobsters who would beat you up if you didn't believe Frank Sinatra was better than Bing Crosby.

I'm sure God is present at rock shows - also at bull fights and crap games. That doesn't prove that those are spiritual.

To me music is an integral part of worship. If the words fit the theme I say run with it although I also have to admit that some of the older tunes are very draggy that is why our accompanist plays them faster somehow it seems to complement better.  It is amazing how fast you can sing 4/4 time.

Words/lyrics affect me deeply and music plays a key role in my life and in worship. Similar to where RevMatt and Mike are coming from, for me the lryics need to be inclusive, non-hierarchical, with a theology that fits with my own. It doesn't matter how much I appreciate the music/rhythm, I have be able to connect with the lyrics.

Lyrics are important. I want to hear good, Christ-honoring, words to the music I sing at church. I want to hear about the cross, the blood, the washing away of sins. I want to sing about not only the love and beauty but also the holiness and justice of God.

Jae, I won't be singing with you/.

At our UCC , we sing a large variety on songs from many styles. We also use Scott Kearns' songbook "The Wonder of Life". Scott is a former Baptist minister who grew up in the fundamentalist church. We incorporate many "older hymns" from the public domain and rewrite the lyrics so that we can sing with integrity.

Jobam - we have a number of people from many different ethnic backgrounds and hope that they find meaning in the music.

What denomination(s) did Scott Kearns grow up in? Are you saying that he was a Fundamentalist Baptist? Or are you just suggesting here that all Baptists are fundamentalists? 

I think Fellowship Baptist but I may be mistaken. He self-identified as fundamentalist.

Can't be Fellowship Baptist. I am a Fellowship Baptist, so I know. We are not fundamentalists. We are evangelicals.

jae,

if you believe in the 5 fundamentals you are, be definition a Christian Fundamentalist that may be what is at issue.

1. inerrancy of Scripture
2. Virgin Birth as story of fact/history
3. bodily resurrection
4. return of Christ
5. substitutionary satisfaction atonement theory

So if you DON'T believe these five things what do you sing about at yoru Church and what do you preach about?

Mike Paterson has it right.  And after all although blues, jazz and rock have been informed by Christianity and Zen and Buddhism, I wouldn't say that they are owned by the fundamentalists or the evangelists.  In fact, we all know that modern religious music is just  a poor shadow of the secular world. 

Still, some of the old Scot, Welsh, German hymns sing superbly due to their lack in interference with their simplicity.  They don't attempt to be anything but what they are. 

Our modern philosophy doesn't lend itself to music but more to jazz.  Modern Christian musicians don't have either enough musica or philosophy to create art.  In fact, with a handful of exceptions I find all modern Christian music equally forgettable.  That's from a singers' standpoint.  And I have had the opportunity of singing with a variety of choirs from good to bad and small to large.

I disagree. Here's an article which I believe highlights some key differences between fundamentalists and evangelicals: http://www.ukapologetics.net/evangelicalism.html

What does inclusive really mean?  Is inclusive only for the liberal UCC?  Do we really include all?  Sometimes God is God.  Sometimes God is father and he.  Sometimes God is mother.  Sometimes God is unknowable mystery.  If we in the UCC really mean all are welcome, that means respecting those Christians who walk a different path.  At one time I identified myself as liberal.  Due to many bumps in the path with other liberal and  conservative UCC, today I simply describe myself as seeker.  I accept all of the music that praises God and moves people to think about their faith.  Robin Mark is often left out because his theology is not in the liberal camp.  His music and his lyrics move people to sing and dance and think about their faith.  Where theology doesn't fit - an inclusive response is to sing with great heart and to accept the gift of music in the Spirit in which it is given.  If the disciples couldn't agree why should we demand agreement.  Rejoice and again I say Rejoice!

Speaking of "great music", I give you, "Christian Side Hug"!!!

From what I know, this is honestly not a parody.

Sorry, I was only able to watch about the first third before exiting.  This is not my type of music!

On the other hand, I loved most of the music in Alex's thread on Voices United and More Voices on YouTube. 

I think the point is, rap involving clean-cut white kids who buy hoodies at WalMart who rap about hugging side-to-side because frontal hugs can lead to people inadvertantly rubbing their genitals together, is not anybody's type of music.

Indeed, Chansen :D

I have to agree with Jobam. I like to sing hymns as much as the next UC church folk, but they come across as old fashioned and stodgy. Evangelicals do have a lot of great music.

Sighsnootles, your church sounds awesome.

thank you Kinst....

Chansen: your video clip.... parody or not, it's hilarious... sad, but hilarious.

It must have been hell for you... how many creepy Christian music vids did you have to trawl through to find that? 

and...

Are you changed for the experience?

I'm going to make the assumption that you are using the term "classical music" in the colloquial.  They got the idea probably from the fact that much of what is likely played was written by church musicians for the church...cms

It was linked directly to Fark one day, I think.  The title of this thread made me think of it, and it was not hard to find again.  I want to erase it from my brain, but I can't.

So if no words what the pont?  .... and/or are we trying to set a mood?

Dude - seriously??? There is so much more in the realm of music than that which contains lyrics.