Jobam-I need more infor to get your question. 

What would you like to see happen?

Like, for sap?

Hi Jobam,

What a great idea!  We can siphon off their energy by getting them to do all the things we don't want to do ourselves! 

Don't laugh.  What do you think the mantra, "The youth are the future of the Church" actually means?

For starters, the youth aren't the future of the current church and they never have been.  The future of the current Church at best would be the 20-50 year olds.  We actually hold our own with the 50+ set.

Of the 20 to 50 year old crowd most will me reasonably content to maintain the church as it is, in order to keep the financial base (typically the 55+ crowd) stable.  Those who want change, because they have actually had to work to implement change in other areas are less likely to attempt change in a scorched earth manner.

The 20 to 50 year olds are perhaps the most flexible group we have in the Church they are also perhaps the most difficult demographic to activate.  Why?  Because their spiritual needs are pretty simple.  They want a Sunday school like the one they had so that their kids can have the same experience that they had and while Church is not a high priority at the moment they do want it to be there, as they remember it, when they need it so they are not likely to go rocking the boat.

If we want this group to become a more active demographic then we need to adapt to what it is that they want, when they want it and as they want it.  That is not likely the standard Sunday morning service starting between 10 and 11.  And because they don't come there is very little motivating their children to come.

So, turning to youth, which represent a potential future for the Church but do not represent the immediate future of the Church we have time to move outside of the box and design an alternative to the standard Sunday morning which may also stimulate a portion of the 20-50 year old crowd to increase theire regular attendence.

These alternate or supplemental services give the Church a vehicle to teach future generation how to think like a Church should think rather than forcing them to think as the institution/congregation currently thinks.

Frankly it requires a different style of leadership than is typically expressed.  Although the switch between styles only requires anyone to ramp up their humility until their style allows them to say, "I don't know" rather than "because I said so."

Tapping into youth is a user mentality and one I hope the Church ditches fast.

Equipping and empowering the youth is what we should be about.  If we do a good enough job at that task then when they move into the 20 to 50 year old range we won't be looking for opportunities to suck them dry, they will naturally be moving into the leadership vacancies and bringing their energy with them.

If the Church does not solve the crisis it is experienceing with 20-50 year olds the only thing we will do to our youth is drain them dry and rob them of their vitality so that by the time they hit the 20-50 year old grouping, they realize they have given far more to the Church than they could ever hope to get back from it and they disappear at least until they are 50+

Grace and peace to you.

John

On WC, in that demographic there is Kimmio, Somegal, Youthworker, Bethany  Faerenach and myself who post regularly or are involved in the church.  I don't think that's what our need is.

I attended a group on campus, and as far as I know no one in the group who fits into that demographic has kids.

To be far, there's also Mendalla and Chansen, but I don't think they are looking for a UCCan Sunday School either.

If I asked you where the children are in the UCC what would your answer be?

Far, far from the church.

Jobam - my answer would be that they are in Sunday School. And the youth are in youth group. I'd also say that they help out in other ways - for example, some of the youth in my congregation help out with the power point on Sunday mornings and many of the children and youth like to help out around the church in other ways.

Probably being children, unconcerned about church because they don't believe as their parents and have more important things to do.

I read this and was thinking the same thing at the time but didn't respond. At least one other person here I can think of too, would not fit that. I think the majority of people who post here on WC in that age group, who are somewhat involved with the UCC, who might or might not like to be more involved, do not fit that description. There are people like those who RevJohn refers to but I'm not one, and I fit the age group.

Kimmio, I probably missed quite a few.

I do think it's important to have something for those who have kids.  I think it's also important to not assume that everyone within in a 'breeding' age group has or wants kids.  That just leads to new problems.

The 20-30 age group is one that is a good time to get involved, as it's when people tend to be seeking out new groups, moving around, forming new routines etc.  Most of the people I know who have kids in this age group (the minority) already have a non-UCCan church they are involved with.

chemgal: Only a couple of my friends had kids when they were under 30 (got married by 25). The few friends I see more often who do have kids are over 35. It seems old but 40 is the new 30, as the saying goes. I find most people are waiting longer...then can't or don't for whatever reason. They might be starting families younger, but generally 20-30 are forming social groups, seeking new experiences, leadership skills- I think you're right. And of course there are some 40 year olds still (always) going on 29 like me! ;)

Many UC's have no children in attendance and have no opportunity to 'do' anything with them,

If you are relevant to your target audience... They will come.

Ok, I am going to throw this out there - now I realize that there are differences re rural, towns and citys - but I am pretty sure that all Conferences have at least one United Church camp in them.  So you have kids and possibly youth.

I guess my concern is the connection that the camps are making with the local churches - and the reverse - the churches making to the local church camps. 

In your conference, does your local clergy person act as a camp chaplin for at least one week during the summer - does the camp and/or connference offer this opporuntiy?  In my pastoral charge, it is written in our policy that our clergy person work at camp (if the camp deems the person suitable to work for camp - not all clergy are good with children/youth). for at least one week a summer.

If each camp has a minimum of 6 camps a summer and an average of 40 kids - thats all of children/youth that we potentially have the oppouruntiy to work with.

The problem I see, is lack of clergy support and congreational support - many UCC camps have no clergy present (camp chaplin) on site during the summer. 

The makeup of kids that attend camps has changed as well - many come from CAS and/or other types of agencies.  We should be reaching out to these kids - supporting them more than just the time they are at camp.....

How much support does your local congreation give to its local church camp.  Then how much support does it offer the kids that attend the camp?  How do you link to the kids at camp?

Many, many - or 70 - 80 percent are non church kids - again, how is your church, your clergy, working with these youth?

We have the next generation in our camps - are we showing them how to be more invovled - or just a revolving door?

Many conferences now have a major role to play with church camps - how are they making the connection to the local congreations?  I know we have not had anyone from our conference attend our church to talk about camp life. 

How does your conference person represent your local United Church camps to your presbytery and your local congreaiton?

So many questions.....so many kids.....

One of my ministers is very involved in our local camp - she has not only served as a chaplain but, for awhile, was also involved on the camp board. We also have a lay person who serves on the board and many of our youth have done the teen leadership programs there.

Interesting questions Jobam, but I don't know the answers. 

My kids attended the local UC camp.  A friend attending a UC church elsewhere mentioned that her kid was going having enjoyed it the previous year,  She had application forms with her, thinking she'd pass them on to me. Yes, my kids enjoyed it too and one of them went for four years in a row.

I didn't hear anything about a Chaplain. 

When thet were hme again, no one from the local UC contacted me or the kids to invite attendance at church/Sunday school.  None of the camps my children attended had other participants from this community, though that could be pure chance..

None of my kids attend a church and none of my grandkids have been to a church camp of any denomination.

Within a comfortable drive of my home there are Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, United and several non-denominational camps.that I am aware of.

Some questions are just a time to get our bias out.   John said it very well above.  The question is where are the parents?  Oh  again, to answer that takes a long conversation and sociological examination.  Not going to happen here with this question.

I hear ya Panentheism. One of my concerns is that some of these camps might lose their charitable status. If they aren't working on any religious and/or education someone could challenge their status. That's why it concerns me that many camps don't have a Chaplin. ... And again no way to connect to the youth.

We have missed their parents. That's a given. If you look at the potential number of campers that could be introduced to church life in some format. Never mind, for most of us, our current worship services and clergy styles wouldn't work. If you have been to camp lately as a volunteer you would see the energy and enthusiasm that the councelors have. Thats an attraction for youth in its self.

Hi Jobam,

In my eight years with The United Church of Canada's Outdoor Ministries I only spent one summer at a camp which brought a Chaplain in to lead the religious education component of the program.

My estimation of the staff deployed at that particular camp is very low.  There were a couple who stood out because of their competency and dedication to their role.  The rest were there for little more than what they could get out of the summer.  The spiritual component of the camp was reduced to very little outside of the designated program time.  It was very discouraging.  Staff devotions in the morning prior to the staff meeting were devoted more to catching up on sleep that they had avoided during the evening than it was any attempt at exploring or learning.

In the seven years before that I had worked at two camps which developed a religious education program and then placed that program into the hands of the counsellors to implement.  The Director at the Camp would handle delivery of (for lack of a better word, sermon) and it was typically a mixture of lecture and drama.  Then the camp would break into their discovery groups (usually a cabin of boys paired with a cabin of girls) and the counsellors would handle reflection/discussion about the sermon/lesson.  It was still a chore getting the staff at these camps awake and alert for Staff Devotionals but we never had to roust any staff from their beds and all participated as they were comfortable even if only to listen.

I do not believe that Campers are immediately aware of the difference in experience between these camps.  There were other factors that contributed to one being of significantly better quality than the other.  This one thing I noticed because I had the opportunity to see both models.  When the counselling staff is not responsible for delivering any portion of the religious program they don't question anything they feel like doing.  When the counselling staff is going to be teaching in one moment and merely observed in the next they pay closer attention to what is going on around them.

One other appreciable difference I have noted is that in the first system all staff were volunteer and at most might work two weeks out of the eight week camping season.  It was essentially their holidays away from a summer job.  In the second system all staff were permanent for the season, it was their summer job.

That ownership brought much higher levels of maturity and accountability to the counselling staff and I believe that translates into a better camp experience.

As far as energy and enthusiasm goes.  It was present at both camps.  Though it was significantly different as it played out.  In the first, where it is vacation time for the counsellor the counsellor is party central and the campers simply bob along in the counsellors wake.  Yes, they have a fun time doing it.  They are also easily missed when the party lurches in a direction that they may be uncomfortable with and that can be disastrous.  In the second, where there is accountability and the potential to lose a summer job the counsellor puts the campers first.  I would argue that the campers have just as much fun if their counsellor is not party central and few if any have ever not been missed.

I think that translates into a congregational context in a very similar way.  In one congregation they are happy to see you because you are a revenue stream that allows them more comfortable time not changing a thing and allowing everybody to have things exactly the way they want it.  In the other they are happy to see you because you represent another ministry opportunity and they are pleased to serve you and just as please to find ways for you to serve if that is what you are looking for.

Grace and peace to you.

John

. ... And again no way to connect to the youth. We have missed their parents. That's a given. If you look at the potential number of campers that could be introduced to church life in some format. Never mind, for most of us, our current worship services and clergy styles wouldn't work. If you have been to camp lately as a volunteer you would see the energy and enthusiasm that the councelors have. Thats an attraction for youth in its self.[/quote]