"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea."

--Robert Anton Wilson (cbuh)

Are we, have we always been, vehicles?

We've always been water that thought of itself as the streambed.

Faith is not a numbers game, and nothing stays the same. Face it; the world as we know it is going to change one way or another regardless. Why fear change? I agree with Elanorgold. I think the video is hate propaganda as well.

 This is seriously creepy, paranoid, xenophobic and sleazy stuff.

Were the West to become predominantly Islamic over the next 30-50 years, why should that necessarily be a problem? It depends much more on the kind of Islam that comes forward. Islam has a long heritage of religious tolerance and intellectualism and there is no reason to assume that could not come to the fore... provided Christians stop demonising it with the same sorts of crazy thinking that characterises fantatical racism.

And Christianity faces a few of challenging issues if it hopes to become worthy of remaining a leading faith 30-50 years from now.

And it's secularisation that most potently challenges ALL faiths. It is secularism that will finish the faiths of the West or -- as is certainly possible -- open the door to NEW faiths.

As for European culture, Europe is ready for a bit of cultural revitalisation, replenishment and change. Europe is tired, and the financial crisis there is going to tax spiritual as well as economic energies. In the past, it has been cultural incursions of various sorts that made Europe the cultural treasure-store it is today... going back to pre-Roman times. 

Relatively, North America remains culturally immature, naive and relatively drab. Cultural freshness and sophistication here are coming very largely from Latin and black sources. Heavens, North Americans have yet to take native cultures seriously... after more than 500 years of contact, few non-native North Americans have "got" that need yet.

It's interesting that the tone of voice and sound effects create a sense of foreboding, but almost none of the spoken words actually declare anything negative about being Muslim.  It's unfortunate that the 1.2 million immigrants are implied to be Muslim when they are actually a diverse mix of non-religious, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim and other.  We first received this video from family friends who have very strong and offensive prejudices against all non-whites.  I almost feel like replying saying that it sure is wonderful that at least one faith group takes their faith seriously, but they are Mormon, and probably would not react well.  They are also anti-progressive politically in terms of taxes, social programs, etc.

Having worked with immigrants in a variety of settings, I am confident that 70 to 95% of the second generation will be mostly secular in their attitudes so their Muslim origins will be almost irrelevant.

The most unsettling part of the statistics is they remind us that most westerners put personal material prosperity ahead of having children or contributing to society in other ways.

 I agree with you Jim.

I think the odious tone to it lies in the assumption that there's some kind of deliberately hostile intention behind migrations undertaken by a particular group that's identifiable only in superficial terms and that these people share a co-ordinated intention to take over.the whole of Europe. The implicit undercurrents are pretty insidious.

Thank you people for confirming my feelings. I feel the intent behind the video is racist and ignorant. My dad does not know the difference between a Muslim, a Hindu and a Sikh and I think he would be as hostile to any of them. I hate to admit that my Dad is a racist but he fervently believes this rubbish. I recently pointed out to him that thought, that the children of the immigrants grow up in our culture exposed to all the same things we are, I know as I've gone to school with some of them, but that made no impact. Sadly, his views are ingrained to the bone.

Even I think 70-95% is high, but I agree that, while most immigrants are religious, their children will be less so, and their grandchildren will be even less so, etc.  The whole Islamification scare in North America and Europe is pointless - Muslims will be as successful at keeping their children in their faith as Christians have been.

In most cases, new immigrants want their kids to have a better life.  They want them to get an education and a good job.  Education is the key.

Eleanor, we are not responsible for our parent's attitudes and prejudices.  Maybe it's God's way ot teachng us to find helpful responses to disturbing attitudes.  If we can find ways to respond to our parent's attitudes, we can be more successful in finding helpful responses to similar attitudes held by others.  Unfortunately, I don't believe I have been very successful at that in some of the discussion threads here on Wondercafe. 

Maybe offer him a coffee and then say, "Isn't this a wonderful gift from the Arabic peoples?"

If nothing else, think about our children trying to change our attitudes in a few years time, and then have a long laugh or cry.  Shalom.

Thanks Jim, I think it has helped me to be more accepting and more quietly questioning and understanding, whereas it could have gone the other way, I could have taken after him, but like my muslim and hindu schoolmates, I am of a different era from my dad, quite a generation gap. The Arabic coffee comment makes me laugh though...that would not go over well with Dad! He takes no messin'! It took many years for me even to tell him my views on muslims at all.

Yes, a good education. And if they want that, then they are quite ok. It's the a-hole who brings his kid up isolated at home to be a KKK that is scarey.

I too think that video is hate propaganda as well in my opnion...

hmmm. While your dad's drinking his coffee, he could also do a bit of math, just for fun.

 That's it's point and the tone is most definitely meant to imply that without saying it.  That's how 'good' propaganda works it's as much or more even, about hitting the emotional buttons as it is about using words.   We see this in action every day if you watch commercials or looks at ads that sell things.  The base patterns and principles are the same.   

In this case there are folks who are saying with words that yes indeed there is a concerted and organized effort by Muslims to 'take over' Europe and North America and impose the evil of Sharia law and conquer 'us' so it's not hard for someone who watches this video and react to the underlying tone (even if they don't consciously) on a emotional level and find and hear the words that confirm that emotional hit and move it to the words and thinking level.  That's exactly what people that make this sort of piece want to happen.  

It's the same thing as people who when selling a car in an add sell the 'feeling' whether it's power, fun 'zoom zoom' or safety.   The music, tone, visuals etc are all created on purpose to evoke a 'feeling' and get you to the point where you 'buy' thinking your only basing it on some sort rational thought process only.  :)     Soda pop ads (Coke and Pepsi) are another good example of this.  One of the most successful ads, in terms of sales was the Coke ad "I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony".  Great ad in terms of evoking an emotional response.  Really though what does world peace and  harmony have to do with drinking flavored sugar water?  Not much of course but they work.  :)  

I agree that the tone of the video is very forboding.  I'm left wondering what "action" the creators think we are supposed to be taking at the end, too.  The only 3 possibilities that come to mind are a) Muslim holocaust, b) convert all the Muslims to Christianity or c) get all the Christians to have 8 kids as well.

Misty - that last suggestion sounds like the most fun.

Where this video fails for me is that no one has statistics on how "western" thinking will affect the women and men of the Islamic faith. It doesn't always take the greatest numbers to have the greatest influence when trying to preserve freedom. That includes freedom to worship in which ever way one chooses BUT must also strive to achieve equality for everyone.

If anyone of a fundamentalist faith thinks that it would only take numbers to influence nations, they are deceived. It takes balance and integrity.

We should only fear that the voice of freedom is silenced.......by anyone.

No words.

The video is based on false premises. It treats assumptions and exaggerations as facts.

The only thing we can be sure of is that things will change and we cannot control this change. We have to adapt to it.

Let's not forget how well the Europeans (our ancestors) assimilated with the natives when they landed here. Now the tables are turned. Oh the irony.

Peoples are allways changing, religions, nationalities, ethnicities, politics, are allways in flux, as people and ideas move around the world. I think it's true though that it doesn't take mere numbers for one way to overcome another, though it helped when the Europeans conquered the natives, but they also had guns and booze and disease.

There's a lot happening out there, I can't begin to fathom.

Jadespring, good to bring up advertizing. So true. We must be informed to protect ourselves from mental manipulation.

Let me get this straight - Larry King is getting his 8th divorce, Elizabeth Taylor is possibly getting married for a 9th time, Britney Spears had a 55 hour marriage, Jesse James and Tiger Woods are screwing EVERYTHING, yet the idea of same-sex marriage is going to destroy the...institution of marriage? REALLY..