Wouldn't be the first split in history.  I don't recall the issue, but once upon a time there was a pope in Rome and a pope in Avingnon, who seemed to spend much of their time excommunicating and condemning each other.  The council that was called to resolve this conflict ended up electing yet another pope to throw into the mix.  The merry mix-ups that happened after that must have been fascinating to watch as they transpired. 

No such thing will happen. Benedict will continue to be pope. His legitimacy is not in question.

I suppose that the Opus Dei crowd never question Ratzinger and call him "holy" but a lot of people are asking some tough questions about this depraved man.

He is the Pope by apostolic succession. And last time I checked, he has been charged with no crime. No one is agreeing with the actions of a priest, but to suggest more, sans evidence, is certainly no one's standard. I someone wants to whip themselves into a frenzy, go right ahead. But at least base the frenzy on evidence, not speculation.

it's a tough call.

If the pope asks forgiveness and resigns, he effectively admits guilt - and so opens the chuch to staggering financial consequences, as well as to an enormous weakening in membership.

To do nothing is to make the church terribly vulnerable to damage almost as bad as the above.

If he claims to be innocent, he must either show innocence (I can't imagine what would be needed for this); or he submits himself to  a police investigation and charges if any should be laid. This would have to include full disclosure.

these are the only choices I can see.

I think it's time Sinead O'Connor got to be Pope.

www.theonion.com/articles/pope-vows-to-get-church-pedophilia-down-to-accepta,17201/

Beshpin, learn to read.

Under the law, you are innocent until proven guilty. We are not talking about the law, though. We are talking about how the pope can  handle a PR disaster.

I did not claim the pope was either guilty or innocent because I have no idea.

What I am talking about is a matter that could be extremely damaging to the church, and how the pope can deal with it.

PS, even in the western world, a person is (usually) innocent until proven guilty - but only as a matter of law. And even here, both Canada and the the US give power to government to put people in jail indefinitely. There have been people put in jail for years with no charge, no lawyer, no trial. Try to keep up on the law as well as you do on trite sayings.

But this has nothing to do with law. It has to do with the ability of the church to survive.

I listened yesterday to an interview with the Americal lawyer, his name was Geoff something, who is pushing the courts.

According to him, he has documentation which shows that Bishops and Cardinals were under Vatican orders to hush up, silence, move around...... priests so they were hidden.  They have memos so i assume they are from inside sources.

He has successfully sueing for hundreds of millions of dollars on behaf of victims and has been doing it since 1986.

 he is now before the Supreme Court of the USA asking for jurisdiction to bring charges/suit against the Vatican directly and Benedict specifically.

He acknowledged that he would be unable to make the pope appear in court in the USA but wants permission to take a deposition in the Vatican.  There were also issues raised about the Pope's ability to travel outside the Vatican if there were court issues raised world wide. ( not only the USA is looking at Papal indictments apparently)

The Vatican is a state, the Pope is the head of that state so there is an obvious issue of diplomatic immunity.

It was a very interesting conversation and certainly the 10's of thousands of child victims world wide need answers.

His point was that Benedict may very well be personnally guilty of something called legally "facilitation of a crime" if he can be shown, while he was in charge of the particular branch , to have actual knowledge of assaults and did nothing but move the priest.

His other point is that the buck stops at the office of the Pope.  In that instance he is not particularily after Benedict, but the "lineage" of the Pope who have know, issued edicts surrounding secrecy......

It is interesting that the US Supremem court is hearing this.  They don't hear everything that is put to them.

I agree that it is very unlikely that Joseph Ratzinger will be criminally charged, but lastpointe brings up a good, umm, point.  Perhaps the best that could come of this is that the Holy See is sued into oblivion.  If most every child harmed by a priest known or suspected by the church to be a pedophile, were to sue the Vatican for their failure to act...

I don't know how it would work, but it could certainly hit the Vatican where it would hurt them the most - their bank accounts.

Even if the entire organizational structure of the Vatican and the Catholic hierarchy came crashing down, Catholicism would still be around.  The language, images, rituals of Catholicism are so popular in much of the world that they would survive any crisis of the papacy.

People who care about the Catholic church should take heart that this crisis could push the church towards a badly-needed housecleaning that could result in it becoming better.   The ongoing issue of child sexual abuse clearly indicates a systemic problem and the church's rulers won't face the truth.

Again, that approach may cause far more problems than any i solves. The death of a major Christian church would pull the props out from large parts of the world. Psychologically as well as physically, that would cause tremendous damage and conflict.

Just look at the effects of the American attempt to destroy Islam  (only calling it ("terrarism"). And don't say they are only fighting terrorists. They have gone a long way to make the words terrorist and Moslem interghangeable. As a result, well over a million Moslems are dead, and Pakistan is on the verge of collapse. And there is much more to come.

Any outcome damaging to the Catholic church will, fairly or unfairly,have an impact on all of us.

Oh, I never even thought that Catholicism would end, even if the Vatican were bankrupted.  I agree that sweeping change would probably come as a result, however.  More importantly, the church would lose its "moral authority" in the world, as if it ever had any in the first place.

Certainly, a diminished capacity for the Vatican to do bad things and influence others to do bad things, would be a welcome change.

Not the same things.  We're not talking about sending cruise missiles into the Vatican, tempting as it is.  We're talking about the financial ruination of a massive, corrupt hierarchy.  The Catholic church is closer to a corporation than it is a church.  Its failure would not result in the death of Catholics.  Maybe a few heart palpitations, but that's it.

A better analogy would be the recent worlwide auto manufacturer bailouts.  Is the Catholic church so large that it is deemed "too big to fail"?  I don't think so.  It's not like it employs nearly the number of people, and many of its convents are nearly empty anyway.

The death of the Catholic church would not effect many people one iota.  I expect it would't really be "dead", as something would pop back up in its place.  It just wouldn't be as powerful, as rich, or as influential.  Life would go on.

I was wondering if any priest has sued the RCC for failing to help them and instead just pretending the issue didn't exist?  Any idea?...cms

That's an avenue, I suppose, but probably a more difficult one.  I'm not aware of such a case, either.

Now it's the criminal trying to prove that at least some of his crimes were only possible because his employer didn't take proper steps.  And what would be the damages?  We're talking about people who had already raped children - it's not like the church forced them to commit their first rapes.

i agree but you see people sue others as a way of avoiding responsibility all the time.  Just wait for it!...cms

You might be right.  It could happen.  Whether or not it would be successful is another matter.

I'm thinking of the woman that won the suit against McDonalds for them not warning her that her coffee was hot...

we have no idea what would happen. The Russians overthrew the cazr - and got Stalin. The French overthrew the King - and got The Terror.Gradual change is usually a  better idea. That's why the pope has to defuse this. If he has done wrong, ti would be better for the church if he admitted it to a court, and took the punishment. If he didn't, this still calls for a very public investigation, and resulting action.

But a rapid change in such a large church could cause unforeseeable problems for us all.

graeme

Why?  It's a friggin' church, not the Canadian government.  It's not even the Italian government, and that gets overthrown every three weeks and Italy still survives.

it's not just a church. it's THE church! The Vatican is its own country - that should express in itself how powerful the institution is. The Pope is supposed to be the spokesman for God for Christians worldwide - he is like the Prime Minister of Chritianity. Millions around the world look up to him symbolically as the leader of the faith, the heart of the institution. If the heart is broken, it can be shattered into pieces worldwide. 

I don't quite follow what he's gotten himself into, but when the Pope is concerned it's always big. Whatever the outcome, Christianity is changed forever now. For good or bad has yet to be determined.

 Confidence in the Pope has declined in the US according to a poll done the pew research centre in the US.

Bigger declines are being found in Ireland and Germany.   The key country to watch Italy. 

http://people-press.org/report/604/

My biggest concern is that the Churches stance on other issues like peace and social justice will be overlooked. As the political left largely  ignores the very poor and marginalised around the world, we need credible and clear voices who will speak out for them.  

However the churches teachings on Peace and Justice are already being done ignored..

 This article from the Telegraph, ( Conrad's black old Newspaper),  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7563913/Vatican-cardinals-claim-sex-abuse-claims-have-been-orchestrated-by-enemies-of-the-Pope.html

Blaming Gays and Women.

Another cardinal, Julian Herranz of Spain, said that the Pope's opposition to gay marriage and abortion put him at odds with "powerful lobbies (which) would like to impose a completely different" agenda on the Church.

 From Rick Ayers Blog comes an important point.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rick-ayers-/pope-benedicts-gang----to_b_525291.html

The important thing now is to see beyond the smoke screen they have erected and question a deeply authoritarian institution - one that degrades women and their personhood as a matter of doctrine, one that polices and represses sexuality, one that presumes to control children's bodies. Abuse, violence, and rape are all common policies of institutions bent on terrorizing and controlling populations. That's where this discussion should lead us.

Any good message out of Rome to world leaders about peace and love is indeed ignored.  The message that actually makes it to the marginalized masses is that condoms cause AIDS and suffering is important because Jesus suffered.  It is a pity there is no hell for the leaders of the Catholic church to go to.

As for polls, the Pope isn't running for office, and never will again.  His only election was sealed by secret ballot a few years ago, and there is lots of talk about how that came to be.  Though, I suppose if public perception is sufficiently turned, it may be more politically feasible to charge or sue the Pope.  More important is that people stop looking to the Vatican for moral leadership.

I feel like a prophet - I asked "Is the Catholic church too big to fail?" earlier today.  Seems Rick Ayers and I were on the same wavelength.

What is important is that the police and courts get access to the records inside the Vatican.  Only the italian police will be able to access them.

This is important not just for the courts, but also the victims around the world who have not been reported to the police and have been forced to sign documents not to tell the police, or their parents,  They need to be identified so they can get help.

Exactly, however this anti-sex campaign is routed in the Vatican need to keep people from being open about sex. Once people are open about sex, and are no longer ashamed, even more Priests, Bishops, and Archbishops will be uncovered as hypocrytes at the least, or abusers.

Oh, I mostly agree there.  The Pope may indeed be the leader of the faith, but the faith is hardly what it pretends to be.  And the country is a small one.  If Luxembourg failed, would the world end?  Probably not.  If the Vatican crumbled, some Christians would feel lost, but I'm sure a new regime would pop up in no time, and be soliciting funds faster than a priest could drop his trousers.

Almost any change to Catholicism would be a welcome one.  There are good elements still at work in that church, but they have been largely ignored, pushed aside, or refused advancement.  It's time these reformers took over.  If this is the disaster that makes such change possible, then it should come, and come quickly.  Preferably, it should come while Ratzinger is in jail.

You make a very sobering point.  I can't lose focus on the fact that there are a lot of victims of the Catholic church here, and that it's more about them and their need for closure and justice, than it is about my dislike for the Catholic church.

St. Catharines Catholic bishop quits, cites stamina

However in his letter he apologies. Does one apologies for lack of stamina?

In his letter, posted on the diocese's website, Wingle also writes, "if my shortcomings and limitations have caused any disappointment I ask for God's mercy and your understanding."

 Already people in the church are examining/preparing  who will be the next Pope. Kinda early to do so if you consider the Pope's good health,

"As a model for the future pope, the church will need to consider someone "able to talk to the world and the media, not be destroyed by it," said the Rev. Thomas Reese, a Jesuit priest and senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University."

From AP

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gLXM_xjParZfgaQfT0IWYRY64OGwD9EUEF180

Ratzinger is a liar who despises wisdom and devalues life.  It is worth remembering that not long ago in Brazil a 9 year old girl became pregnant as a result of repeated rape by man she knew.  When she was given an abortion to save her life, the child's mother and the medical workers were excommunicated by Ratzinger's cult while the rapist was not excommunicated.  The difference is that the rapist 'merely' commited fornication which is not a excommunicable sin.

 Tim Shriver, chairman of Special Olympics, and Roman Catholic, says that the only thing that will save the Pope from resigning is

"What's needed is a conversion of the bishops and the pope himself. That's right: It's time for the pope and the bishops to convert their culture to one that is centered on loving God from the depths of their souls and to leading a church that is as much mother as father, as much pastoral as theological, as much spiritual as doctrinal. It is time for them to listen to the deep and authentic witness of the people of faith, to trust the spirit that blows where it will, to abandon their defensiveness of their positions and trust only the gospel, and not their edifice of control. Conversion is a total experience -- letting go of the old and putting on the new.

The conversion we seek for them is the same conversion they invite for us: Put on a contrite heart and fall in love with God, recklessly, totally and passionately. Let the love of God be the only measure of their actions."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/04/AR2010040402726.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Lots of anti-catholicism out there. I"m not a Catholic, and never could be. But the reality is that the catholic church has been very active on social issues, rather more than most Protestant ones. Indeed, the fundamentalist Protestants seem more intent on joining with the far right, and using it's missions solely to convert and politically propagandize.

I have met people who identify as catholic and who reject the pope's authority.

In the past when I was involved in some political activist groups I met a man who said he was a "Catholic Anarchist".  I was surprised at this because it seemed like a self-contradiction, an oxymoron.  I learned that he is part of the same movement as the Christian Peacemaker Teams whose members became hostages in Iraq several years ago.  These people also accept gay liberation.  They would say that the church belongs to the people, not to the pope.

No, there is lots of anti-child rape enabling and cover-up out there.  I personally have no greater axe to grind against Catholics than I do against any other believers.  But these newer charges have really captured the attention of people to the hypocrisy of the Catholic church.

Maybe so. But a major collapse of it could mean trouble for all of us. And I much fear that the pope's handling of all this has been inept, at least.

Catholic anarchists are not surprising. There was, twenty years ago a substantial movement among Catholic clergy in Latin America to Catholic communism, and church opposition to American imperialism. I have lost track of what happened to that movement. But I know it opened the church to some pretty rough treatment from an assortment of dictators - including widespread killing, rape of nuns, etc. Much of it was done with CIA connections.

Proetestant fundamentalists, on the other hand, often acted to move converts to greater cooperation with the US.

 From the AP today

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ilg-XpU7rvtWx3qbEwd152oTmBiwD9EV0BNO4

On Thursday, Norway's Catholic Church said it has received new allegations of clergy abuse, one day after revealing that its former bishop resigned after admitting to child molestation.

The current bishop, Bernt Eidsvig, said he has received e-mails alleging new cases of abuse. But he said the nature and seriousness of the allegations remain unclear.

Norway's Catholic Church disclosed on Wednesday that the reason Eidsvig's predecessor, 58-year-old Georg Mueller, resigned in June was that he had admitted to abusing a boy about 20 years earlier, when he was a priest.

Mueller's current whereabouts are unknown.

From Reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6372E620100408

Sexual abuse by Catholic priests is a scourge in Africa as well as the Western countries where scandals have badly hurt the Vatican's image, a leading African Catholic archbishop has said.

....

"I know that the Church in Africa, is inflicted by the same scourge," Tlhagale said.

Africa is one of the fastest growing regions for the Church and ever more important as the number of practicing Catholics in the developed world declines. Africa's Catholic population rose from about 2 million in 1990 to about 140 million in 2000.

While reports of sexual abuse by priests have come to light locally, they have not made global headlines.  

“There were a gigantic number of attempts to get through,” Mr. Zimmer said. “It was significantly more, in fact, than we expected.” 

Tlhagale , has now positioned himself as one the leading contenders to replace the Pope. By being the first Archbishop to side with the people, he makes himself potentially the only man  who could replace the Pope, that has  credibility with the people.

It will be interesting to see how American lawyers react. This is a higher number than in the US, IF they can somehow get the cases heard in the US, under international law.  

They might be able to, by using the documents that Hans Kung has, that shows that Ben has been at the center of the cover-up. 

 Tlhagale said the abuse scandals undermined the Church's moral authority.

"As Church leaders, we become incapable of criticizing the corrupt and immoral behavior of the members of our respective communities," he said. "We become hesitant to criticize the greed and malpractices of our civic authorities."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6372E620100408

Well, of course child rape scandals undermine the Church's "moral authority", but the Vatican has been more critical of those reporting the abuses of trust than those who did the actual abusing, and have been praising and defending Ratzinger, who enabled and protected the abusers.

It's enough to make you vomit.

 What is interesting and different about this Archbishop, is that he has placed the scandal as systematic. Something is wrong with the Church globally , he says, and it is not just a few bad priests.

It's affecting his desire to see the church help the poor.

A solid platform for someone interested in becoming the next Pope.

 From Andrew Sullivan Blog, (a queer Roman Catholic) and former Margart Thacther cheerleader. I found this story from the National Catholic Reporter.

The Vatican's Watergate: Follow The Money

In his time, the late Fr. Marcial Maciel Degollado was the greatest fundraiser of the modern Roman Catholic church. He was also a magnetic figure in recruiting young men to religious life in an era when vocations were plummeting. Behind that exalted façade, however, Maciel was a notorious pedophile, and a man who fathered several children by different women. His life was arguably the darkest chapter in the clergy abuse crisis that continues to plague the church.

 ...

This much is well established from previous reporting: Maciel was a morphine addict who sexually abused at least 20 Legion seminarians from the 1940s to the '60s. Bishop John McGann of Rockville Centre, N.Y., sent a letter by a former Legion priest with detailed allegations to the Vatican in 1976, 1978 and 1989 through official channels. Nothing happened. Maciel began fathering children in the early 1980s -- three of them by two Mexican women, with reports of a third family with three children in Switzerland, according toEl Mundo in Madrid, Spain. Concealing his web of relations, Maciel raised a fortune from wealthy backers, and ingratiated himself with church officials in Rome.

....

The Legion scandal stands out for another reason: The Maciel case and the trail of money he reportedly gave cardinals raises profound ethical questions about how money circulates in the Vatican.

 Back to Italy.

From The Irish Times 

THE ITALIAN victims advocacy group, La Caramella Buona, has accused the Catholic Church of systematically covering up recent clerical sex abuse offences in Italy.

Speaking to leftist daily Il Fatto , yesterday lawyer Sergio Cavaliere claimed that in the last two years alone there had been 130 legal cases involving allegations of paedophilia against Italian priests.

“No doubt, we will discover that the Vatican worked with the bishops with even greater alacrity in Italy than in the rest of the world in order to hide the cases, for the good reason that the church is so powerful here in Italy and contact [with the church] is so close,” said Roberto Mirabile of La Carmella Buona.

Mr Cavaliere, who has handled cases on behalf of Italian victims of clerical sex abuse, claims that the figure of 130 may well represent “just the tip of the iceberg”, adding: “In not one of these 130 cases did the local bishop report the alleged offence to the police”.