Nobody will say it. Plenty on this side would respond, cheering you on, if your were to blame Russia or China or Libya of that behaviour. But you are not allowed to say it of Israel. If you do, people will call you an anti-semite (thereby indicating that they do not know what the word semite means.)

Israel behaviour is far worse than the incident you list above. Nor is that behaviour limited to treatement of Palestinians. Any Jew - in Canada or Israel - who criticizes the Israeli government comes under fire.

Israel operates a spy network in the US. That's know - but doesn't get much reporting. It subisidizes a huge and effective lobby in Canada and the US with the result that American and Canadian leaders get pulled around by their noses.

But if you say that, "Your an anti-semite.")

Even in the United Church.

Sorry, folks. I had nothing to do with the holocaust. And if you did, then please keep your guilty reactions to yourselves.

It seems that evil machine wasn't stopped; it must be stopped before it destroys again

Lot's of people, including me, criticize the policy of Israel of destroying houses.  I certainly never said Israel was lily-white.  They have done plenty wrong.

But this thread could easily overheat, so I prefer to just say that much and take my leave.

I'm afraid destroying houses is only a very small part of it.

In the recent debate over laws covering bullying in schools some are calling for bullying-awareness sessions. The idea is to make kids aware so they don't just stand by and watch the bully take advantage of the weaker party. Well, bullying also applies to nations and it is clear that Israel is the bully in the Palestinian struggle for an independent state of its own. Netanyahu says he wants peace with the Palestinians and he favors a two state solution but his actions belie his claim. He clearly desires the status quo which gives the Israelis complete control over the West Bank including taxes, territories, security, movement, media and recently the judicial system which appoints right wing judges to pass judgement over conflicts between Palestinians and Israeli settlers. It's too bad more people aren't involved in bullying-awareness sessions involving nations.

Easydoesit,

I appreciate your presence here on WC -- thanks for your writings :3

Inanna

Thanks for the compliment. Much appreciated. At least now I know there are one or two spectators who watch my posts (bit of an ego trip I suppose). Sometimes  however I wonder if I shouldn't take Voltaire's (or was is Rousseau..can't remember) advice and go "cultiver mon jardin." But then I am reminded of the movie line "All it takes for evil to exist is for a few good men to do nothing." I do not believe the Israelis are evil but I do believe profoundly they are responsible for much injustice toward the Palestinian people, particularly in the West Bank. Surely 40 years of occupation is enough.....but that's enough of that.

Now let me return a compliment to you. (at least I hope you take it as a compliment). Your posts/videos remind me of abstract paintings whose worth is not immediately obvious but upon reflexion one appreciates the value; intriguing, a little off the wall but always interesting. And you  have a great sense of humour that often jumps out at you when you least expect it. There are many clever people on this site and you are near the top of the list.

David Mamet:  Why have liberl westerners turned their backs on the Jewish state?

http://sassywire.wordpress.com/2011/12/13/david-mamet-why-have-liberal-westerners-turned-their-backs-on-the-jewish-state/

How many times have you heard Israeli supporters brag about Israel being the only democratic country in the Middle East where women enjoy the same rights and priviliges as men? Well it appears that is not entirely true. According to the Economist (Dec 10-16,2011), the religious right in Israel is on the rise. Orthodox Jews now comprise 40% of the ruling coalition. Religious soldiers (40% of new combat soldiers) boycott military pageants at which women perform. Municipalities cancel concerts with female artists. In ultra Orthodox suburbs of Tel Aviv women do not drive. Laws are promoted by religious politicians which ban Arabs from living in Jewish communities and some politicians would deny non-Jews the vote.

And these are  the people Netanyahu depends on to keep his government afloat!

But Easydoesit,

that's David "Forgeddaboudit" Mamet, man.  The guy who writes like he has balls of concrete.  Dissing him is like dissing DeNiro or Al Pacino...*shudder*

The Ultra Orthodox are kinda weird all right.  But they have very large families, so they are forming a larger and larger fraction of the Israeli population.

They will throw stones at people driving through their neighborhoods on Shabbat. 

What is the world coming to?  The extremists seem to be taking over in the Middle East....

I wrote my last post before I read the article on David Mamet so here is my reply to Mely.

At least David Mamet offers a unique idea for defending Israel (usually it's terms like anti-semite, Jew hater, terrorist etc) but IMO his idea is like a leaky can trying to hold water. He thinks the liberal West is sacrificing Israel to the devil-like Iran in the same way Abraham offered to sacrifice Isaac. He makes two assumptions at the beginning of his column that IMHO are false. First, Israel is not the ancestral home of the Jews; Arabs have been living on the land as long as the Jews and therefore have as much right to call it their ancestral land as the Jews. Second, the Israelis have a home which came into being in 1948, and no one is ever going to take it away. This argument is pure fear mongering and the Israelis have been using it for a very long time as an excuse to steal more Palestinian land. The metaphor that Mamet uses would be more appropriate if it refered to the Americans sitting on their hands watching the Palestinians being sacrificed to the Israelis.

BTM Mely, do you subscibe to the WSJ? I don't but would be interested in some of the comments.

I subscribe to WSJ, where that article was published.  There are 210 comments, they are all over the map.

You should be able to access it.   Here is the link to the comments

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020482670457707424121322228...

It is true, he skates by the issue of the Palestinians living there before the recent creation of Israel.  IMHO, Israel would not exist (or it would be very small) if not for WW II and Russian pogroms.

Thus Europe (or those parts that shipped Jews to extermination camps), Russia and those countries like US and Canada who refused to let in Jewish refugees in WW II, should contribute to a fund to pay the Palestinians for the lost land.  

IHMO also, it would be smart for the Palestinians to accept this and co-operate with Israel, because their economy and lifestyle would greatly benefit.  There is a huge legacy of fear and hatred on both sides now however.   

It is a huge question, whole libraries exist on the topic.  

EO

Thanks very much for the link; much appreciated. I am still trying to wade through some of the comments, over 200 of them. Sorry for being late with this post but have been quite busy with other stuff of late.

EO is quite right. We created the middle east problem. Now, we are forcing Palestinians to suffer for what we did.

This is an edited version of an article written by Patrick Martin which appeared in the Globe and Mail on Dec. 24, 2011. It helps to explain the motivation of young Palestinian men who join what the Israelis call terrorist organizations but what the Palestinians see as a resistance to an occupation of the West Bank which has lasted over 40 years.

Hasan Salameh was one of 1,027 Palestinian prisoners recently released by the Israelis in exchange for Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier captured by Hamas. He was nine years old in 1967 when the Israelis destroyed his village and sent his family packing. According to Hasan, Yalo was a beautiful village in the West Bank with 12 springs which allowed his father to work on his farm, grow crops and raise a family. After the family was evicted, Hasan's father was no longer able to grow crops because he had no land so life became miserable for the whole family. Hasan was able to go to university only because he was a good student and an NGO paid for his tuition.

When Hasan was 20, he traveled to Jordan where he joined Fatah, who trained him in the use of explosives and small arms. He returned to Ramallah and joined a group of resistance fighters who planted bombs in West Jerusalem. One of the bombs exploded on a bus and two Israelis were injured but no one was killed. Hasan received a life sentence and spent 29 years and 70 days in an Israeli prison. When Hasan was arrested, he had been married for one year and  had twins, a girl and a boy. Neither of his children were allowed to visit him in prison for eight years. His father was allowed one visit a year. 

This is the type of human tragedy that Westerners seldon hear about. We hear plenty from the pro Israel camp which continually demonizes the character of the Palestinian people but never admits that the settlements and the occupation are the real problem. Hasan says that he and Shalit are just small pieces in the struggle between the Israelis and the Palestinians. They may be small pieces but they are human beings and their story needs to be told if we ever hope to have peace in that troubled part of the world.

The trick lies in choice of words. Western killings are never terrorist. But when we invade a country, and they shoot back at us - they're terrorists.

An interesting article written by Isabel Kershner appeared in the NY Times this past weekend. It talks about a new book entitled "Deception: Betraying the Peace Process," written by the privately financed "Palestinian Media Watch" an Israeli watchdog group that monitors as the name implies, Palestinian media. The book is a catalogue of messages broadcast by the Palestinian Authority (PA) over the past year  and features a song written to  honour a 19 year old Palestinian woman who lead a squad to Israel way back in 1978, that killed 37 Israeli citizens, many of them children. The message the book wants the public to buy is that the PA uses double-speak, talking peace in public to Western media like CNN  but inciting hatred among its domestic followers toward the Jews.

I do not condone the actions of this woman even though I could point out that 1,300 Palestinians were killed by the IDF back in 2008-2009 during Operation Cast Lead, many of them children. My point is this. What is the purpose of this book if not to incite hatred of the Israelis and their followers toward the Palestinians? I also question the timing of the book. Mahmoud Abbas is the leader of the PA and is soon to retire. He is a moderate(much moreso than Ismail Hayiyeh) in the eyes of most international observers, a genuine partner for peace. Yet Netanyahu and the Israeli right continue to demonize the man. If the Palestinian Media Watch were more than just a propaganda machine it would stop such biased attacks on the PA and try to do more to win Palestinian support for Fatah in the upcoming elections.

Israel has played itself into serious trouble. Egypt has elected a government committed to end its peace treaty with Israel. Paliestinian Israelis will  be equal in number to Jewish israelis by 2015. And Israel has tied itself to a dying superpower which is desperately using extreme violence as its one hope for survival.

For those who care about the human rights abuse that is going on in the West Bank, there is a good article written by Thom Davies that appeared in the Hamilton Spectator, January 03,2012. The article entitled "Bethlehem then and now,' draws a comparaison between the occupation of Bethlehem at the time of the Romans and the Israeli occupation today. Not much has changed for the local population. They are forced to flee their homes to escape the violent behavior of the oppressors. Hope the link  I have provided works; if not, google the Hamilton Spectator, Thom Davies, to get the full story.

http://www.thespec.com/opinion/editorial/article/648292--bethlehem-then-...

The Israelis have committed another act of terror, this time assassinating a young Iranian nuclear scientist. Mostafa Ahmadi Roshan was killed Jan10/11, 2012, by motorcyclists who placed a magnetic bomb on his car then sped off. This act follows the assassination of two other Iranian scientists in 2010. We don't know what effect this type of intimidation will have on Iran's nuclear ambitions but one thing is for sure; the Israelis are spawning a whole new generation of what they call terrorists.

How far will a tribe go to protect themselves?

The belling of Islam continues where even moderates & progressives in moderate & developed countries have antihuman ideas.

Can Islam be contained anymore?

Who knows?

styles change. It may soon be necessary for our leaders to make us hate the Chinese, instead.

Don't worry, graeme -- Persia will survive. They survived so much, even British & Islamic imperialism and they made Islam their own :3

(I look forward to joining them in prayer at the Mosques of Coca Cola & Synagogues to GM Foods)

Possible. After all, we know now that the Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11, and that Saddam had no WMDs.

Hi Graeme not not true ,we did know he had some . who has them now? Iran , or Syria we don't know. I think we will find out when they deside to use them.

We don't know that saddam had some. We do know he had poison gas. We know that because he got it from the US. He was supplied (and encouraged) in his war against Iran by the US, Britain and France.

Anyway, weapon of mass destruction is a pretty vague word. Do you know what it means? I don't. The US killed millions in Vietnam. What were their weapons of mass destruction?

As for Iran, Israel has been claiming for over ten years that Iran is within months of having a muclear warhead.

Syria? It might have high explosive rockets that could reach Israel. Israel has 200 nuclear warheads that could reach Syria.

Anyway, the fight in Syria has nothing to do with democratic rebellion. It's a rising financed, trained, and organized by the US, Turkey, SAudi Arabia, and the Emeriates - none of which wants a democracy. Read The Guardian (on the web) to get a more honest look at the news.

Funny. we all here how terrible it is when Syria puts down disorder. How come we never heard about when the US killed a quarter of a million Mayans in Guatemala? When Saudi helped the Emirates to slaughter rebels?

The US spends more on defence than the next five countries put together. Ever wonder why all these smaller countries are picking on it? It's rather like grieving that the world heavyweight boxing champ is being bullied by midgets.

Why would Iran pick a fight with the US? What could it possibly gain in such a war?

Now - the US would stand to gain....

Thanks Inanna for posting the video on Howard Bloom. I actually spent over an hour listening to him talking about  his Iranian TV experience. He started off suggesting that Islamists find it more of a sacrilege burning a few pieces of paper (ie) the Koran than burning people alive. He then proceeded to  talk about the persecution of the Jews over the centuries, including the Holocaust, and to demonize Islam and its founder Mohammed who he accused of mass murder. He admits to being an atheist Zionist Jew and also says he believes in tolerance, human rights, freedom of speech and a pluralistic society. He made a point of saying how important it is that one people/nation not trample on the right of another people to exist. Yet he made no mention of the settlement issue or the right of the Palestinian people to have their own state with Jerusalem as its capital. This guy is a brilliant orator and I can easily see how he could influence others especially those with a pro Israeli bias. But he uses old arcane arguments to defend present day Israeli politics. He does not look at the reality on the ground in present day Palestine where Israeli settlers harass Palestinians, destroy their property, limit their movement and make it very difficult to make ends meet. And all this while the IDF stands by and watches. If I wanted to be more cynical I would add that much of the Western public acts the same.

Trivia Question

I challenge you all to attribute this quote WITHOUT using YOUR computer :3

“Peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect her right to exist, its territorial integrity and the right to use whatever sea lanes it needs. Israel is one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security, and that security must be a reality.”

My guess is Netanyahu but it could be anyone in the pro Israel camp who turns a blind eye to the settlement issue. I certainly have no argumenet (I've said this a zillion times) with Israel's right to exist but what about the right of the Palestinians to exist? And the longer the occupation goes on the more Palestinian land the Israels steal.

Don't know who created that quotation. I would guess it was about 1970, and probably a person reputed to be liberal.

The reference to sea lanes might be a clue - though I can't think of any time when Israel's right to the use of any sea lane has been disputed. Indeed, the only country of the region which has illegally blocked sea lanes is Israel. That includes the attack on an American navy ship which killed over 30 American sailors.

The comment about brotherhood (with whom?) and converting desert to productivity suggests it might be even earlier than 1970.

At Halton Presbytery on Tuesday night, we voted (not overwhelmingly) in favour of a boycott and other non-violent actions against Israel to pressure them to peace with Palestine.  This result will be taken to General Council in August and considered there for a UCC position. 
Our area is very multicultural, so we have Muslim relationships as well as Jewish, and various multi-faith endeavors.  One question that was asked was, in our relationships with Jewish synagogues here, and these are warm and friendly relationships, how can we explain this boycott and our hopes to them and work on peace from here?  Ok, it was more - how can I look my friend the Rabbi in the eye after this??

How indeed - maybe that is where some real movement has to happen.  I still think we need (somehow) to make all our holy sites (everywhere) into public spaces for history and culture, and allow people to use them for faith-reasons.  I think we should celebrate earth & peace first, and then discuss cultural differences with an eye towards relationship. 

But our traditions say love God first and be faithful first, so then that overrides care for each other. 

The actions in Israel/Palestine aren't based in faith and love for God, but some thread of power and entitlement that clings to faith history.  They are political actions as far as I can tell.  If they aren't seen that way, but treated by Canadian groups (synagogues, mosques and churches, and the media) as faith-based, then we are never going to see resolution.

"Jews in Hyperspace", by Clifford Pickover

Palestinian Physics

Just like all these different ethnic groups are now called 'White', all these different clans, tribes & Familes are called Palestinian.

Humanity will never stop innovating and some people will always try to control/name the uncontrollable/unnameable

Inanna: Thanks for the interesting links.

Birthstone:  I am glad to see Halton Presbytery on board with the recommendations in the UCC report on Israel/Palestine. I hope the other presbyteries in Ontario will follow suit. Pressure is building world wide for a Palestinian state but we need to have good grass roots support.

I have just received a note from a friend, a man who is a Jew and a zionist, but denounced because he is critical of Israeli extremism.

He says Christians are fleeing Palestine - but not because of Palestinians. They are fleeing because, like other Palestinians, their homes and land are illegally seized and annexed for Israeli suatters. they can't get water because Israel siphons most of it away. They are harrased by the IDF and by checkpoints. Christians in Palestine are being persecuted- by israelis.