September 10... I fell asleep on the sofa watching late-night television on the CITY-TV-Toronto.

September 11... I woke up to see a twin-towers-falling-rebroadcast. I thought it was all a joke. Turning to other channels, I realized it was not.

Shock.

Amazement.

Great, great sadness.

As the stories about the heroic efforts of police, firefighters, and paramedics started coming in... hope for humanity.

I was in my first computer lab for my computer science class at university (I went back at the age of 33).  Some of the students had found it on the internet.  I thought that it was a hoax.  Until I got out of class and started talking to different people.  Most of the arts classes were cancelled that day but science classes went on as usual.

Don't get me started.

Bolt

Psssssst, the true 911 conspiracy is the one which claims it was an "inside job," blaming the American government, in particular George Bush, in order to deflect blame from an evil organization known as Al  Qaeda.

Don't let on I told you.

Whether one want's to admit whether its an inside job or not.

What I question is how do they explain all the discrepencies in the whole detruction of ground zero?

How do they explain the controled mannor in which bldg 7 was collapsed.

How deos a conrtroled demolision take place just hours after a catastophy like what happend on that day?

A controled demolision that takes weeks to undertake professionally.

Why did the majority owner of the Twin towers decide it was a great time to pay extra premiums in insurance for total loss months before the disaster?

Why after this a war was illegally initiated with Iraq with subtantial claims with absolutely no evedence to support this claim of " weapons of mass destrution.

With the technology that exists today & to not provide evedence that can be proven either false or, even doctored to look as if it is legit.

Why could they not provide concrete evedence?

Why are most of the private contractors who are reaping the spoils of war tied to the Bush administration?

And where does oIl come in to this? whith proven links of the Bush family & the Saudis Monarchy.

This was a carefully planned act of people who are much more in the forefront & have much more power & influence than that which is dealt by the national & even world media.

A plann like this is beyond any threat from any terrorist organization.

The real threat is our FREEDOM!

If you wish to discuss further on where not only our Freedom here in Canada has changed, but most assuradly it is apparrent in the US with the ratifying of new legislation that defeats the civil liberties on their citizens.

The ramifications of this new form of fear mongering will indeed be revield in time.

As it has in the past.

Bolt.

Watched a great documentary yesterday on the whole 911 conspiracy crap. Can't quite remember what it was called, unfortunatly.

The documentary took each of the conspiracy nuts arguements and subjected them to rigorous scientific testing, and examined the results against data from the 911 sites. One by one the conspiracy nuts case got torn to shreds.

What I found interesting was that everytime the conspircay nuts were shown the results of the tests, they continued to deny them, just out of hand, even thought the independant data that showed their premises were false was right there in their hand. One guy even went so far as to say that one particular test was invalid because that test had been done with regular thermite, and not "Super" thermite. When asked where you could get the "super" thermite, he said nobody knew.... but it had to exist because that was the only way to make the conspiracy theory work.  /facepalm

Then there was the claim that kerosene jet fuel could not soften steel beams enough to make them collapse, let alone in the estimated 5 minutes the kerosene burned for, so the testers set up a stell beam over a pit of kerosene and lit it up. 3.5 minutes later the steel beam collapsed.

What did the nutbar say? That wasn't a fair test... /facepalm

Unfortunately, you just can't convince 911 conspiracy nuts, anti-evolutionists, flat earthers, and moon landing hoaxers that their fantasies aren't true. No matter how much data you throw at them, they will either just make up new fallacies to fit, or just ignore evidence as it suits them.

How do you explain bldg. 7 ?

It was unscathed yet collapsed in a controlled mannor.

A building structure that would definately require controled demolition to fall in the mannor in which it fell. It was not a tower it was almost as broad as it was tall so please explain how this could happen?

How do you explain that a fire in the lower levels start burning for what ever reason, yet the collaps starts from the top of the buildin in the video that shows it?

Everywhere else the building as unscathed yet it collapsed.

Just a few hours after.

So a team of experts or civil engineers from the govmt. secretly said this buildg has to come down for future public safety, so lets bring her down.

So a planned domlition was engineered for that perticular engeneered strcture for the betterment of public safety in the center of hell.

Within a few hour time frame.

 While hell was breaking loose in their surroundings.

BTW, there were some very very important things in that building, this cannot be proven beyond a shadow but it makes sense as to why such power influenced people would want to pull a scam like this to influence world structure, economy, & cultural behaviors.

There is great great profit for those who can pull such strings & with todays technology there is no doubt in my mind that a formula to this great disaster was a planned formula by powers beyond the influence of Jihad.

How does one explain this?

Bolt

I don't explain building 7.

I leave tyhat job to the engineers, physicists, demolitions, and other experts who actually know about what they're talking about; the best of whom all agree on what happened.

Are you one of the world's best engineers?

No?

Allllllllrighty then.

What's you're opinion on the "Flat Earth" conspiracy? Did you know the Government just made it up?

Cmon witch, you must be able to come up with something better than that with your intelect.

Bolt

I don't need anything better than that. I have the actual experts wwho know what they're talking about on my side.

You have nothing, except conspiracy nutbars, all of whose crazy fallacies have been put to the test and found wanting, on your side.

Experts vs nutbars..... I win.

So how do you suppose they managed to pull off that moon landing hoax?

Has anyone explained bldg 7 to you?

I don't expect you to explain it, you don't explain it because you cannot explain it.

Do you care?

How does such a fact, as building 7 not be forefront in this whole investigative behemoth we call Central Intelligence?

Because of corruption., bottom line, & if you feel the need to live in denial to comfort youself into a place of nutural form in the midst of this new beginning that was foretold.

I feel for you as it does sound dismal as it has been expressed before.

But not dismal for all inhabitance. Which needs to be pointed out.

This is between you & God.

Bolt

Experts in the field of controlled demolition have indeed been interveiwed, & rule of trade is if  full detonation of the complete structural integrety from top to bottom would initiate a complete concentric decent.

The lower floor steel wouldv'e still had enough structural integrety to push the tower to tople to one side of least resistance to gravity.

But no, it was controlled to minimize destrution to other buildings.

Building seven was loaded to fall right after the towers fell but something went wrong.

Perhaps the smoke designed & intended to be a screen to ellude detection of a carefully planned execution designed to snatch & go.

This smoke couldv'e been more of a hinderance in the execution of whatever it was.

There was no substantial reason for there to be a fire in those lower quarters of building 7 due to the impact of both those aircraft.

It was staged as a ploy to evacuate all inhabitance as this was heard by many & even recorded of video that people heard by what seemed by authorities thet they were going to "bring her down" as what was said on one perticlar video referance.

So no one in their right mind would hang around unless they knew exactly when the demolition would start.

How does one explain a controlled concentric decent by the towers, & a controlled decent of a building with miminal dammage  in the midst of hell?

 This execution of this demolition must have been carefully undertaken with precision in taktics of stealth & must have take a rather lengthy period of time to undertake successfully.

The perfect plan of execution wouldv'e been if one of the towers toppled at the same time then the dust surrounding building 7 wouldv'e screened any discrepencies to it's demise. As the possability of the debris of one or both of the Towers couldv'e been used as an acceptable explanation as to the demise of Bldg.7

Perhaps, that which was very important inside had to be removed before bldg. 7 could be demolished.

How much are two commecial jets & almost 3000 lives worth?

To some, only the cost of the commercial jets are a factor.

So say, 30 mill each jet? for what has compounded as a cost of billions?

Billions have been generated by these wars & rumers of wars by who?

HHHhhhmmmm.

Bolt

Actual demolition experts, as opposed to those sycophants the conspiracy nutbars pass off as experts, peer reviewed, accredited, world-renowned demolition experts, tell us that there is no evidence of explosives used in 911, including building 7, and much, MUCH evidence to show otherwise.

Sorry Bolt, the explanations from the experts on Building 7 are credible and simple. Conspiracy theories are hugely complex, wildly speculative, and don't follow simple science.

You still havn't answered my questions about the flat earth and moon landing conspiracies....  why not?

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

To have rigged the 3 buildings, hundreds of Demo Experts would have had to had unlimited access to those buildings for weeks previous to 9/11 and yet work undetected by ANYone within those buildings...

To paraphrase Chomsky, to pull this off you have to assume that the US Govt knows exactly what it is doing and all subsequent evidence has been counter to this assertion....

And you'd had to have had the complete cooperation of tens of thousands of people, not one of whom would ever have been able to utter a words of it before or after, even by mistake or in a drunken haze.

Not bloody likely.

Yeah, exactly...NO-one ever got a case of the 'guilts', got disillusioned with the PNAC? Not likely....

I find the conspiracy theories hard to believe,  but we shall always have them.

There are still stories that the American government knew all about Pearl Harbour before it happened, and deliberately suppressed warning signals. Now, the US certainly wanted a war with Japan, and had wanted one for over twenty years before Pearl Harbour. But none of  the conspiracy theories over it make much sense.

For example, yes, there were warnings picked up by American intelligence weeks before the attack. But any intelligence service is swamped every day with information, most of which is wrong or useless. Some of the warnings were right out of pure luck, but all were disregarded as unreliable. There is nothing unsual in that. It happens every day in the intelligence business.

Then you get the incident which is used as an excuse for war. The classic example is the sinking of the USS Maine in Havana harbour. The US government blamed Spain for it as an excuse for war.But the Spanish had not done it. So inevitably we had the rumour that the American government itself had blown up its own ship. The truth, far more likely, is the explosion was accidental, the fault of a sloppy captain with a record of carelessness in ship safety.

There may well have been bad judgement in the handling of intelligence warnings of 9/ll. But that doesn't prove a conspiracy. It is simply something that is quite common in the difficult job of intelligence gathering.

Like others, I find it unbelievable that such a huge conspiracy could possibly have been kept a secret.

September 11th always brings about a sadness to me.

The combination of
the shock of watching it live, as we turned it on as soon as the first hit
watching in a training room that had a screen which filled the wall. 
the viewpoints & shock of  an international team already under strain
being in a mid-western US city that evacuated towers / buildings
having friends in the air and their wives phoning me to ask if I knew where they were
being unable to go home until international flights were opened up again
joining a methodist church service as they feared for retaliation against muslim & hindu friends...shucks, anyone who was "different"
of finally losing it in an airport, and apologizing to the attendant for sobbing when told international flights had all been grounded again, knowing that I had nothing to cry for...and the stewards understanding & crying along with me.

There are vignettes of people, of images, that will never leave my mind.

Well I must say that horrible event showed just what the citizens in New York are made of.

Also the spirit of unity was an impressive sight to see.

Witch, there is also the matter of molten iron found as a result of the cutting action of the steel beams when an activation of thermite takes place.

There is clear video evedence of thermite reative bursts & molten steel escaping the breaches of the outer shell of the towers where impact took place but also in areas where the glass shell has been breached where one can see this stream of what looks like pouring & splashing of molten steel.

All the steel has been recycled & now so where is the evidence?

Why were they in such a damn hurry to have the steel recycled?

The pools of molten iron are now cleaned up & there is no question about the fact that no jet fuel fire can reach near the temperature that is required for steel to become molten in such a way.

So Witch, deny all you want.

No one wants to believe that there could be some who have this power on Earth to deceive on such a scale as this, & no one wants to believe Evil can roost in such high places.

Why? because it takes the realization that one can be deceived & pride of man will not accept this as a form of failier.

As being decieved is a form of failier indeed.

Bolt

Sorry Bolt. There were no molten steel puddles found. That's just another fallacy. And there was no thermite residue from the thousands of tons of thermite it would have taken.

The experts agree, no thermite, super of otherwise. And the fact remains that jet fuel fires are perfectly capable of causing steel members to fail.

I don't have to deny the conspiricy crap. The experts have done that for me. You know, the people who know far, far more about the subject than you do?

So Bolt, deny the logic of trusting experts and data over nutbars and wild speculation all you want.

You still havn't answered my questions about the flat Earth and moon landing hoaxes. Surely you must agree they have the same veracity. Why don't you believe in them?

Or do you.....

I don't deny logic in my mind Whitch, I won't go so far as to say you deny logic Whitch. I see it differently.

To say there was no thermite residuals found is from a report that was obviously falsified.

Whitch, are you saying that it was done by an act of God?

Because as far as I'm concerned, only God can work beyond the laws of physics in this world.

& that is what it would take for both towers to fall straight down concentually, without the use of strategic placement of thermite reators to first cut the steel, then explosive charge to blast integrety of it.

This assures a straight decent downward.

The towers would topple because of the mass under the inititial failier wouldv'e still been enough resistance to a direct path down like they fell that day in Sept.

The most neglect of physics of all is the FACT bldg 7 collaped in a controlled mannor at all.

From a small fire?

Whitch, who is neglecting logic here?

Bolt

okay, what we have here is situation in which large numbers of skilled workers toiled for a very long time creating a highly skilled installation of tons of a very sophisticated explosive in a building that was very heavily used at all times. And nobody noticed.

Very intriguing.

HHMMMmmmm, nobody noticed the contractors wearing tyvec suits working in multiple areas of the Towers doing what ever they were doing prior to Sept 11.

 If you have control of building security & extreme upper management, what can stop you?

Bolt

Does anyone believe we have the technology today, or even 10-20 years ago, to be able to take someone who is conditioned in a special way to obey all orders given to them by what ever authority is over them in their line of thought?

And does anyone believe it is possible,,,,

To order these indeviduals to do a task, then after the mission is over they are turned over to more conditioning that will make them forget everything they ever did in that scenario, & live a completely different life afterwards?

Without ever remembering who they were, or what they did?

Kind of like a Manchurian thing or whatever.

Bolt

I can't believe that my area of specialty has come up twice in this forum in the past few months.  Structural engineers never get to talk about their area of specialty.

I design temporary support for structures undergoing repair all the time.  What people don't realize, and what makes me angry when people just dismiss the need for temporary support during a structural repair, is how a little damage, or small repair area, affects the load bearing capacity of a structural member, be it concrete or steel.

Trying to explain this as best I can....the stress in a beam, for example, is concentrated at the top and bottom face in mid-span.  If you damage either the top or bottom of that beam in mid-span, even just to remove 10-20% of the beam, you can remove almost all of it's capacity.  Big beam, small chunk missing...and it's useless.

Remove one face of a column, and now you've removed capacity and shifted the neutral axis.  Now the column is eccentrically loaded, and you're asking for problems.

Now, a building is meant to work with all its component parts.  Remove a part, and every structural engineer in the area will run away.  We know that one small failure will result in an increased load below, possile lateral instability, or other affects.  These in turn can cause new failures.

I was working at home that morning. I saw the second plane hit the tower.  I saw both twin towers come down.  Knowing their construction, it makes perfect sense to me.  What's more, I think it makes common sense, in that you don't need to be a structural engineer to understand a series of floors attached to a building core and a series of closely-spaced perimeter columns, will fail in such a way that they will "pancake" and collapse straight down.

WTC 7 was hit with desbris, and there were fires.  I've read the reports, including the one linked by Witch (thanks).  You can definitely see the initial failures in the pics.  I understand they were worried about the structural integrity of WTC 7 before it fell, and I understand why.  I would run away from that building.

Yes, Halliburton has made billions from the war.  Yes, I think the administration wanted a war with Iraq even before 9/11.  I think 9/11 gave the administration the political "currency" to invade Iraq as well as Afghanistan, but there is no evidence they had a hand in it, and no credible story of how they could ever have pulled it off.

You've been watching too many "B" movies Bolt. Now you're really reaching with the wild speculations.

Of coarse there is no concrete, or should I say "steel" evidence, if there were heads would be rolling by now.

It is quite strange how it was decided to melt down that steel so soon after abating all steel substructure from the site.

Realy, how many opinions are on the official report of the condition of the sub structure after abatement.

The steel was quickly shopped on bulkhead & then stored for a short time then quickly sold for scrap & sent to the fire.

Look at the video!

There are streams of activarted thermite & molten iron falling from breaches close to where the impact were on the towers. & also in places where there were smaller breaches of the outer shell there were.

Jet fuel will weaken steel, but not send moltes splash like you see in the videos.

Open your eyes of understanding.

What too place was a very calculated plan by authorities far greater in technology & wealth, than the people who wer blamed for this act of horror.

But no one wants to accept there is such evil within the ranks of absolute power.

The answers lie in logic.

It is illogical for a building to collaps in that mannor due to the laws of physics.

It is illogical or should I say impossible, for a building such as the design structure of bldg.7  to collaps in the mannor in which it did without careful strategic precician chraged thermite reation & compression blasting.

Especially without any substantial dammage to the structure.

Bolt

Please Witch, you must come up with something better than that.

"B" movies?

Wild speculations?

Building 7 alone convinces me.

No one want's to believe there is such EVIL that lies within the ranks of absolute power.

Bolt

How convenient for you conspiracy nuts

 No it's not. It actually took far longer than it should have. You just want for it to be too soon.

Do you even have a clue what you're talking about? Regurgitating someone elses crap isn't much good if you don't understand it.

The steel was scrapped, sold, and recycled, just as one would expect. Took longer than one would expect, but due to the care taken in the investigfation, I suppose that's warranted.

I have. What's more important, the experts also have. They don't see what you apparently need to see.

A prime example of people who don't know what they are talking about trying to find crap to support their conspiracy crap.

Aluminum/magnesium, of which there would be tons on every floor, looks just like that when it burns. Having seen a few Aluminum skinned APC's burn in my time, I can attest to that. Thermite, of which I also have considerable experience, does not look like that when it burns.

Nice catch phrase, but what you really mean is "Throw out your common sense and pretend you know more than the experts. It will make you feel important".

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? Use your head Bolt. The simplest answer is that some people flew planes into the buildings, and cause them to fall down. Strangely enough, the evidence fits that answer perfectly.

Your explanation is ridiculously unlikely, unworkable, and illogical. Not strangely, there's no evidence to support it. Unless you happen to have found an army of govt controlled invisible zombie demolitions agents carrying alien super thermite transporter beams......   No? Alllllllrighty then.

No one wants to accept that purple spotted unicorns from Betelgeuse IV did it either... go figure.

Indeed, please let us know when you start using some.

No it's not. That's exactly how one would expect a building to collapse under those circumstances, due to the laws of physics

No it's not. Building 7 fell in exactly the way one would expect, without any need for explosive or thermite (you keep talking about thermite Bolt, do you even know what it is, or how it's used?)

Which isn't a problem, since there was substantial damage to the structure.

For the love of God, Bolt, give it up already.  Nothing you have purported in this post, or in any of the others has any merit whatsoever. You don't know what you're talking about. You're only regurgitating the crap from other people who also don't klnow what they're talking about, but are at least smart enough to make a lot of money from this conspiracy crap.

At least take one minute to answer my questions about the The Flat Earth thoery, and the Moon Landing hoax. Why do you keep ignoring those Bolt? Do you have something to hide? Why the silence, Bolt?

Your evasion is only proof that the evil in the ranks of absolute power is trying to suppress the truth!!!

Chansen are you an engineer?

I am not, but what I am is someone who has wored in the field of load formulas, stress tolerances within the realm of temperary loads for shipping & loading trains.

I am a competant rigger & a heavy equipment operator.

I also read blueprints & have knowlege substructure theory.

All vertical beams are the back bone of the fomula to such loads s a tower like either WTC towers to withstand such collaps.

The vertical steel substructure in those towers were of high grade exceptionally high tolerance steel. Theory demands through design tolerances, towers such as the WTC had steel that wouldv'e deflected the load of each collaps of the towers.

Those Towers fell straight down with some help.

Area of expertice?

No one wants to believe that such Evil influences the ranks of absolute power.

Bolt

Yeah, B movies and wild speculations, like referring to the "Evil in the Ranks of Absolute Power! MUAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!". Remember saying that, Bolt? Doesn't that come right out of a low budget action film? Doesn't it just make you want to scream "By the Power of Grayskull...I Have the Power!"?

Of course it does.... because you have no knowledge whatsoever of the actual subject, and you want to... or rather need to believe in an evil conspiracy. Ignorance helps you maintain that belief, and so you steadfastly resist any logic or evidence whioch would teare down your conspiracy.

No one wants to believe as much as you want to believe. Or more precisely, no one needs to believe as much as you need to believe.

Apparently you don't read other people's posts very well Bolt. Chansen IS an engineer.

Crane operators are qualified to lift stuff, which is why you don't have heavy equipment operators designing buildings. Which is also why, alsthough you calim some knowledge, your actual knowledge is severely lacking.

It certainly doesn't qualify you to contradict the experts

And where is my answer on Flat Earth and Moon Landing Hoax?

Well it's not like you have to believe me fellers.

The thing is, when you look at collaps of bldg. 7, hours after impact.

Being that it's a physical impossiblity for such a struture to collaps in that mannor without the use of thermite & compression blasts.

How does one explain it's collaps in that mannor hours after hell breaks loose when it takes weeks on careful planning & instilation of such material to accomplish such a thing as this?

So if I don't know what I'm talking about, it is all in who hears what I say.

I know what I am talking about.

If you wish to show yourself as one who also knows what he speaks of.

Perhaps instead of saying that, show it.

SHOW IT!

Your arguments are lame whitch & chansen based simply on bldg.7 alone.

The logic of the laws of physics are in play here.

It is simply impossible for building 7 to collaps the way it did without professionally installed demolition.

Bottom line!

Bolt

Excuse me?

Flat earth? Moon landing?  Is all OK?  Why are you asking me this?

Bolt

Because you're just like the people who believe the Earth is Flat, and the Government is keeping the knowledge of that from us.

Because you're just like the people who believe the Moon Landing is a hoax, and the Government is keeping the knowledge of that from us.

They use all the same types of arguments you do, all the same wild speculations, scientificish sound bites, wild speculations which depends on people not knowing the physics involved, the same government controlled silent zombie armies.

Why shoudl I believe your conspiracy crap, buit not theirs? More importantly, why don't YOU believe their conspiracy crap?

And where are the zombie armies Bolt? WHERE  ARE THE ZOMBIE ARMIES?????

No reasonable person would, especially in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Fallacy of begging the question.

The explanation has been given by the experts, whose job it is to know. You, on the other hand, lack any such knowledge, so your wild explanations of what is a physical impossibility are not relevant.

You have failed to explain how no one noticed the hundreds of people knocking out walls, exposing structural members, moving hundreds of tons of destruction material out  and setting hundreds of tons of thermite (which would be the stupidest material to use anyways) around support columns, weeks in advance.

You  have also failed to explain how the "High Ranking Absolute Evil Empire" managed to keep tens of thousands of people absolutely silent for all these years..... Oh sorry, you did explain that one.... the brainwashed zombie armies of absolute evil. I wonder where they all got to?

These are the questions the conspiracy nutbars cannot answer, won't even address. They are, however, the places where the conspiracy crap inevitably breaks down.

I'm sure you think you do. Unfortunately, people who are ignorant rarely understand the depth of their ignorance

No problem.... here  http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/fullreport.pdf

http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

University of Purdue investigations and modelling

http://www.structuremag.org/article.aspx?articleID=453Computer Modeling of Collapse of World Trade Center Towers ("Structure" magazine, many articles, if you have the courage to read them.)

http://www.jod911.com

9-11 and the New Pearl Harbor
http://www.gnn.tv/articles/2577/9_11_and_the_
New_Pearl_Harbor_Part_I

Journal Of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
http://www.jod911.com

Debunking 9/11's E-Mail - Please read the FAQ before sending
debunk911@hotmail.com

911 Myths - Reading between the lines
http://www.911myths.com

Screw Loose Change Blog
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/
Debunk 9/11 myths
http://www.debunk911myths.org/

Internet Detectives Group - Loose Change
http://internetdetectives.biz/case/loose-change

The 9/11 Debunker Guide
 http://911debunker.livejournal.com/

Screw Loose Change - Not Freakin' Again edition
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6596630292015140276&hl=en-CA

9/11, Steven Jones, and Me
http://ldspatriot.wordpress.com/tag/conspiracy-theories/

Your Friday Dose of Woo: And now for something completely different...
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/12/
your_friday_dose_of_woo_and_now_for_some.php

911 Cult Watch
http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk

What I Learned from 9-11 Conspiracy Theories.
http://www.sawyerhome.net/whatilearned.html

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Engine Investigation
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Ground Effect
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0274.shtml

Counterpunch The Physics of 9/11
http://www.counterpunch.org/physic11282006.html

The 9/11 Faith Movement
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2702/

Attempting to make sense of senseless acts
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=903b3f4a-2e6c-47b4-b710...

Did the U.S. government plan and execute the 9/11 attacks?
http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/911truth.html

Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
http://www.alternet.org/story/41601/

9/11 Conspiracy Fantasies
http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/41423/

All Plots Move Deathward
http://insidehighered.com/views/2006/09/06/mclemee

9/11 Conspiracy Theories Persist, Thrive
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2281052

Why The 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1531304,00.html

Popular Mechanics - 9/11: Debunking The Myths
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html

Fahrenheit 2777
9/11 has generated the mother of all conspiracy theories
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000DA0E2-1E15-128A-9E1583414B...

The Ground Zero Grassy Knoll
http://www.nymetro.com/news/features/16464/

Facts about 9/11. Not Fantasy
http://www.geocities.com/factsnotfantasy/

The September 11 X-Files
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=66

The 9/11 Conspiracy: A Skeptic’s View
http://www.crisispapers.org/essays6p/skeptic.htm

Debunking the 9/11 Movement
http://www.infoshop.org/texts/debunking911.html
Interview with Prof. Jonathan Barnett, an expert in structural and fire protection engineering who was one of the WTC investigators
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/fall.html

Public Eye - Post 9/11 Conspiracism
http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/Post911/demnowfaq.html
Public Eye- 9/11/01 - Repercussions General Conspiracist Views
http://www.publiceye.org/frontpage/911/conspiracist.html

Perry Logon's "Delusion Central" (A fun site.)
http://perrylogan.org/

Viewer Guide to Loose Change (Doc)
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/911_loose_change_2_guide_1.doc
9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide (A light hearted look)
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

Screw Loose Change Video. (Yes, it's finally here)
http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/

Loose Trains
http://loosetrains911.blogspot.com/

Penn & Teller's Bull Shit - 911 Conspiracy theories
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7501020220921158523&q=penn+telle...

Salon - The 9/11 deniers
http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2006/06/27/911_conspiracies/index.html
SciAm blog about conspiracists' reaction to Shermer
http://sciam-editor.typepad.com/weblog1/2005/05/a_conspiracy_of.html
 
In These Times: Nightmares of Reason: Sorting fact from fiction in 9/11 conspiracy theories
http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/15/feature1.shtml
 
The September 11 X-Files
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=66
 
Snopes debunks "Hunt the Boeing", a conspiracy site based on Thierry Meysan’s (and David Ray Griffin’s) claim that a missile, not AA77, hit the Pentagon
http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/pentagon.htm
 
Wikipedia articles on conspiracy theory characteristics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracism

It Was Flight 77 - Debunking Alternative Pentagon Crash Theories
http://www.geocities.com/someguyyoudontknow33/

I could go on, but let's face it.... you're not going to bother honestly reading anything that doesn't agree with what you NEED to be true.

Yes I understand how much you need for that to be the case

Laws of which you have no knowledge

Sorry, Bolt. No matter haow many time you say the same thing... no matter how much you NEED it to be so.... that is simply not true.

"Bottom line" is that you need to feel special. You need to have special knowledge that sets you above the great unwashed. You need to believe that you are a member of the privileged few who have risen above the "ignorant masses" to fight the "Evil Empire". You're living in a video game or a spy novel.

Ever been to a kindergarten at recess? Ever notice there's always one kid walking arounds, desperately trying to look important, chanting "I know something you don't know".

We all have that need, Bolt. That need to think we're smarter than everyone else, that somehow we, and we alone, have found the "secret" that everyone else missed.

Most of us grow out of it. Some people don't.

Witch, this is a public forum,,, remember?

I don't lay claim to have the authority to expect you to believe me, heck, even God doesn't place such a burden on one's heart.

Well at least the way I see God, you may either see him differently, of not see Him at all.

But it doesn't mean He isn't there.

Just because one doen't see cirtain things about the disaster, doesn't mean they didn't take place.

I am not just speaking passion of a moment in time of great horror, but I also speak logic.

It is simply impossible according to the laws of physics for a structure such as the design of bldg.7 to collaps in a controlled mannor like it did Sept 11, unless it was done with the help of demolition engineers to plan & execute it with precision & stealth over a period of time.

& this just so happens a few hours into hell on Earth in Manhatten.

What more needs to be said?

None for me.

None for you?

It's all good, believe what you want.

Bolt

Yes - civil.

Structural.

If you cannot prove something, just keep repeating it over and over.

Yeah,,,,,,and,,,,? Your point is?

It is impossible for the structure design of building 7 in the WTC complex, to collaps in such a way as it did on Sept 11. without demolition.

Believe what you want.

Bolt

Ummmmmmmm.... you asked him .....  you know back when you were trying to impress us all with your engineering knowledge from your years of driving big trucks an' stuff...

Translation: 

OK , I'll choose...... reality for 500...

The proof is in the Physics.

What have you provided so far.

I repeat it because this fact alone is my claim to my perception of what took place that day,

To see video of molten iron spill & splash in the breaches of some places where the outer shell of the buildings were breached.

Jet fuel will not get structural iron to melt, it just does not get hot enough to do this.

Are you realy an engineer?

If you are an engineer anything like the engineers I have worked for in the past.

Then I understand.

BUT

If you are a competant engineer, you would know that for a structure of that design to fall in such a way as this, would requier precision application of demotition.

Buildings just do not collaps in such a way on their own.

Especially with the lack of structural damage that building 7  appeared to have.

Bolt

Witch, if you feel the need to belittle me with your accusations & name calling,

Then maybe there is a good reason I can't hold merrit to what you say.

I have stated where the logic is behind what I say, & I stand by it.

The logic behind what I say is the science.

Calling me names or whatever does little to convince me of my error.

Help me Witch, Help this poor unenlightened soul.

LOL!

Bolt

Which you have ignored. Did you check out the links I gave you?

It's not a fact unless you can show it to be one byu way of objective evidence. Your speculation is not evidence, thus it is not a fact.

Your perception is not relevant in the face of expert investigation,

There are no videos of molten iron. There are videos which show burning material falling, which the experts have concluded is likely aluminum/magnesium. I've already told you that. I've given you the links to the expert conclusions. You just ignore what you do not want to know.

You are correct. Jet fuel will not melt steel. Jet fuel will, however, get steel hot enough to cause structural failure, whioch is all that is required. I've already told you that. I've given you the links to the expert conclusions. You just ignore what you do not want to know.

No. Like you I am not an engineer. Unlike you I trust engineers to be the experts on engineering. Perhaps you should ask Chansen. Oh I forgot, you did ask him... and then tried to weasel out when he answered you.

I was a demolitions instructor in the Army, back when I commanded the pioneer platoon. So if you have any questions about thermite or explosives, please feel free to ask me. I'm not an expert in controlled demolitions, we normally just blew things up, but I know enough to know when I'm being sold a bill by someone who knows nothing. If necessary, I still have some friends from the army engineers who have become experts in controlled building demolitions. I can always ask them for you. I suspect, however, that you don't want to hear from actual experts.

So you have a history of contradicting aactual engineers on engineering subjects. Why am I not surprised. You must have been quite a crane operator. Perhaps you should have been a barber, our other known experts on everything.

Actually the real competent engineers, the best engineers in the world, the actual experts, say just the opposite; that those buildings fell exactly as expected, given the circumstances.

Do you feel you know more than the best engineers in the world, Bolt?

Quite right, but slam a couple of jetliners full of fuel into them....

You mean the lack of structural damage that YOU need to believe in. The experts tell us there was more than enough structural damage.

Really Bolt, do try to read at least some material I gave you; something other than the conspiracy crap from the wingnuts who also don't know what they're talking about.

I did help you. I gave you a wealth of material to read through in which the actual experts debunk the conspiracy nutbags. I doubt you'll read it.

But let us consider for a moment your accusation of belittling. Do you consider it OK for you to belittle the people who have done the work you would not, to get the education you don't have, to work towards an expertise you could not hope to understand?

Do you think it's OK for you to belittle the families of the victims, who want real answers, and choose to depend on actual experts to help them get those answers?

Do you think it's OK for you to belittle the thousands of hard working people whom you accuse of murder, and conspiracy to commit murder?

That is peobably the most interesting one to me, Bolt, what with you claiming to be a Christian. Isn't false witness considered to be a sin for you? Isn't accusing innocent people of committing murder, without any substantial and objective evidence; indeed in spite of the evidence, considered false witness? When you stand in front of your God, do you think your excuse of "well it didn't make sense to me" will hold up against willful disobedience of His commandment?

"Thou shalt NOT commit false witness"

I'll just wait here for you to try to weasel out from underneath that one. It'll be good to have a concrete example of your hypocrisy to refer to next time you start preaching about what "God says".

As Witch pointed out, you asked me about my education and area of expertise.  I told you.

Before and since, you've been saying "it is impossible for the structure design of building 7 in the WTC complex, to collaps in such a way as it did on Sept 11. without demolition."

I have nothing against equipment operators - I respect their knowledge.  I ask the same in return.

When you write:

What I get from that is that you can read a chart, prepared by an engineer, you say you can read a drawing, and beyond that, you have no clue what you are talking about.  It's just gobbledygook from there forward.  You're trying to regurgitate some pseudo-analysis you're read elsewhere, and it's coming out badly.  You should have stuck to copy-and-paste of the conspiracy websites, which would at least sound less ridiculous and have better spelling and grammar.

HHHMMmm so now it's my failier to communicate this priciple of physics to you.

My grammar, is in error. Regurgitation.

MY my, you are a peach.  LOL.

Got more to sling? 

There are always two sides of a story, & there is always an accurate version.

For one to think that a complete investigation cannot be corrupted in todays age of technology is fooling themselves.

I'll repeat this again.

No one wants to believe that such Evil influences the ranks of absolute power.

This is my last post on this subject as this is redundant to express not only physics but also common sense.

Then when it's ones turn to respond to my statements of opinion, they come back with comments of how stupid one is because one doesn't trust what the final report says.

A report that was done within a beurocratic entity under the authority of the US govmt, who at the time has been under the G.W Bush administration, who's majority of minions within his "empire" are reaping the spoils of war & sucking the united stated economy dry.

How much money do you think the Federal reserve can print to make up for that drainage of the US budget & then the deficit.

The United States & it's citizens are debt slaves, & so are we.

All the while the wheels of the banking world & the corperate machine who are in the loop are rolling to profit form the spoils of war.

Isn't it odd that those who pull the strings are realy the ones who profit from such horror?

No evidence eh?

In all fairness I will look at the videos Witch posted.

Bolt

Bolt

How convenient of you to ignore the thousands of independant studies, done by experts not part of this supposed EVIL EMPIRE, who have come to the same conclusions.

Your logical fallacies stack one on top of another untill they reach great heights, but you ignore the simple, honest explanations that do not fit what you need to believe in order to make yourself feel important.

And yet you have no compunctions about disobeying the very commands of the God you claim to love and honour, and you have no problem accusing people of murder without any evidence.

That is the bottom line, when all is said and done.

My area of expertise in physics. I think the large size of the buildings (including WTC 7) throws off out intuitions about how buildings should behave.

The gravitational loads of a building will go up as the cube of its size. However the wind loads will only go up as approximately the square of building size, as will the static loads of individual floors.  To sustain large loads the columns need to be appropriately braced, and I would not expect the floor trusses and other bracing structures to be up to the tasks once the columns were pulled much out of true. It does not suprise me the buildings fell approximately straight down.

I hope you do look at the videos, and study the reports, and cross-reference the expert testimonies. To do all that should take you at leastr a couple of months, if you do it honestly.

So shall we suspend this discussion for, say, three months, for you to make your way through the literature you should have studied before you started believing the conspiracy nuts?