My uncle used to winter in Arizona.  He could have been one of the crowd - and probably not very sympathetic towards the congress woman's administration (he and I didn't agree on Canadian politics either).   But he could have been shot.  Like that little girl - was she a democrate or a republican, or just a school girl hopeing her mother would buy her favourite cereal and get her a treat.

it was with a lot of sadness that i heard this one on the news... my prayers are with them.

     This is awful.   I spent last evening following with on a couple of USian boards as the info came out.   With any event, in the first hours and days a lot of false info that leads to speculation and gets turn to 'fact' so it usually takes a bit of time for things to settle on what's right or wrong info.   Like for instance at various times the Congresswoman was reported to be dead, including to her Rabbi, and on some MSM news sites when she wasn't.  The shooter was reported to be a vet and then he wasn't a vet but someone who got turned down for the military.  Still a question about that fact.    That's just how it goes as infomation is sorted through.

 So regarding the young girl who I think her name is Christina Taylor.   It appears from a couple of articles including ones quoting family memebers she was there as part of the event.  She was taken by a relative who thought it would be interesting for her to go.   That doesn't make her any less innocent or it any less tragic of course.

Now that some eyewitness accounts of people who were there are making their way out it appears that what happened, though it's still sketchy was the shooter first shot the Congresswoman, basically at point blank range, then started randomly shooting at staffers and others who were in the line to talk to her.   The event was basically a meet and greet where people were able to talk to their political representative.   The shooter at one point ask to talk her near the begining of it and was told that there would be time later.  He walked away and the next time they saw him he vaulted towards the table the congresswoman was at and started shooting .  He was then tackled to the ground by one or two people depending on the accounts.    There were also vague reports that someone else shot at the shooter.

 I doubt that the above is the whole of it or even 100 accurate. That's just what's out there now.    It will take a bit of time to get a handle on exactly what  happened.

 The sheriif last night said they are on the look out for another 'person of interest' who was there with the only details given a male in their 50s.   Nothing at all about why they are looking for him could be a whole number of reasons.   

There has been a whole lot of speculation about motive and whole lot of people investigators (obvious) , reporters and internet denzians scrambling to find info on the shooter once he was indentified.   If the myspace page that was found and the youtube videos are indeed connected with the shooter then he very much looks like a disturbed individual with some extreme and sometimes wacky political views,  Right now there is a war going on in the blogosphere in trying to peg him in the left or right camp using nothing but info gleaned from myspace,  mainly the books he says he likes.    Basically he was yours!  No he was yours!  He was a liberal!  He was a wingnutW  because he had  books on a favorite list and some supposed 'tweets' from people that knew him years ago.   Absolutely ridiculous in my books you cannot tell just from something like that.     His politics and views (if the manifesto thing is indeed his) were all over the map and peppered with a bunch of conspiracy theorist stuff.    Probably and this is my view only from what I've read so far the relavent to the shooting part of it was a lot of anti-government talk, and talk about illegal government peeps and things that were un-constitutional. 

  There is also much discussion about the level and type of poltical rhetoric used by politicians namely rhetoric using images and words of violence that encourage an atmosphere of conflict and violence.   "Don't retreat, reload!  Talk about second ammendment solutions,  watering the tree of liberty, etc etc."   Yesterday after the shooting Palins website that had a map with gun site targets over peoples districts that needed to be taken out,  the Congresswoman was one of those.  Her other sites were also systematically scrubbed of other such rhetoric.  All of it is still on the internet though, people were actually documenting the scrubbing.     And no I am not suggesting that  Palin and her rhetoric specifcally were the cause of this or were even a factor in this specifc incident but I do think it's an indication that they were at least aware of  what it might look like in light of the shooting and were concerned enough to remove it.   Meaning it looks bad.    If they didn't think it was bad it would still be there.     There were other incidents of things being removed or scrubbed as well on other well known politcal sites.    She wasn't the only one doing the, "oh shyte, this doesn't look good' thing.

So anyways that's a summary of what I've been able to glean and sort through what so far from the crazy amount of info (lots of BS, including at least one fake Facebook page)   flying around about this.   Please don't take any of it as some sort of absolute, this is the way it happened.   It's just to early to be absolutely sure about anything. 

http://blog.beliefnet.com/christianityfortherestofus/2011/01/congresswom... here is a good reflection - also check washington post and other such sites for good information.

 Thanks Pan for the link.

I especially liked this quote:   "many ministers have told me that they have feared addressing public issues from the pulpit lest "someone get hurt."  Well, someone is hurt--and people have died--most likely because bitterly partisan lies have filled the air and most certainly because some unhinged individual killed people"

Palin's web pages that 'suggested' killing as an answer - with gunsights on places  and/or people, struck me as inflammatory and easily misunderstood by those who don't think long and hard before acting.

Had those pages been posted by a Muslim wouldn't  there have been an outcry about 'wicked terrorists'?

 It also points out the importance of real dialogue...real conversation...like we often have on this site.  Where people are challenged on their rhetoric and broad swipe statements.  Let's keep talking folks....ensuring that we take away from the poison, not adding to it.

I was very sad to read about the shootings.

TL

I think there has to be some heavy duty dialogue about politicians inciting fear and hatred towards their opponents and the press needs to get back to more responsible reporting.

I'm not sure of this young mans motivivations, but whatever his reasonings, it sure brings to light that there's a powder keg out there that the smallest spark could ignite.

There is a good article in the NYTimes on the political rhetoric, it also mentions Sarah Palin's target website and Facebook pages....

Bloodshed Puts New Focus on Vitriol in Politics

I am a firm believer that the leaders of governments and media can not create an atmosphere of anger and fear without there being serious consequences to the social fabric.  This latest incident just reinforces my belief.

LB

How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it.

     Marcus Aurelius (AD 121-180)

"Don't Retreat, Reload" - Sarah Palin

Well apparently someone did.

We are always participants in the shared human experience -- whether intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, has always been our choice.

I hope all those involved get the presence and the help they need.

And shame on "the media" for going into a frenzy.

As time goes on more information is received and the story shifts....

Again from the NY Times  Suspect’s Odd Behavior Caused Growing Alarm

What disturbs me when I read articles like the above is, once again, history repeats itself.  This young man did not just implode one day in a Tuscon mall.  The flags of his behaviour were, apparently, waving madly for months yet nothing was done other than isolate him further.

Perhaps intervention would have done nothing to prevent the events from unfolding as they did, but how can society ever know if it does not make an attempt to change the course of fate.  We build barriers, turn our heads, and therefore our eyes, away from the "odd behaviour" convincing ourself if we don't see it it does not exist; but it does and it never ends any other way but badly.

We are all culpable, pink or blue, right or left, whenever we close our eyes to the consequences, real or potential, of our actions.

LB

Don't make excuses--make good.

     Elbert Hubbard

I think Sarah Palin & her tea party have dug out space for legitimizing extreme ideas and equating political struggle for a violent one. They have certainly turned violent reponse into a logo & slogan.  The Republicans have allowed it and encouraged it, and as a party have been responsible for demonizing Democrats & 'liberals'.  They are the party that  has upheld the wild west cowboy image that I know well.  Its about guns & retribution, every man for himself, pride being a virtue above love for  neighbour.

This just creates safe places for bad ideas to fester, and no space for cooperation & collaboration or governing the country responsibly.  Its like a video game.  Only this time a little girl, a federal judge and 4 others are dead, and Congresswoman Gifford can be marked in red on Sarah's target map.

geez, she actually SAID THAT??

Routinely. It's basically a "catch phrase" with her.

There are disturbed individuals out there and when violent imagery and rhetoric is thrown about all over the place some of it will take root in some very twisted minds. Unfortunately I doubt this is the last tragedy of this nature. As long as there are disturbed individuals and people willing to throw poisonous words and ideas around the two will inevitably meet at times.

good grief.

it seems to me, hearing the little that i do of american politics, that she is making an attempt to be the republican nominee for president. 

is that still an option?

This is a time to reflect not add to the rhetoric - yes ideas have causal influence but they are not the only influence.  In the case of a young man who is 'lost' some ideas will motivate.  But blame? Blame the right or the left?  When we do we are no further off in understanding.  It is political yet not political in the narrow sense.

My bias is to blame Palin et al, but that would not correct.  Yes they have some accounting for their speech, but so do I when I demonize them. What is in our culture that is both positive and negative that underlies our views, and where does the negative or the denial also lead to problems.  We are finite so not all our ideas and their import are seen, but we are also slothful when we do not ask hard questions about our views, and then we can be perverse and use our ideas for distruction.  We need to begin with the outcome, compassion and wisdom, is it increased.  That judges our actions for wisdom and compassion grow or perish from our actions and our ideas.

amen

Hi Panentheism

Amen and amen on that.

To demonize is not to understand.

The shooter, who may mentally inhabit his own little world, may not take any ideas from the sources we assume he gets them from.

I think everyone will need more than a week to come up with any conclusive ideas of a cause.

Agreed.  It wasn't Mrs. Palin pointing the gun and pulling the trigger.

A possible upside to this tragedy is that from this point forward purveyors of political rhetoric may actually pay attention to what they say and how they say it if only to safeguard against the regrettable consequences of having someone appear to walk their talk.

I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.  I would love to be surprised by it.

Grace and peace to you.

John