When I lived in TO, I worked on Front Street and lived up by Bloor. In the summer naturally I would walk home.  The Bay and Yonge area are loaded with someone asking for spare change.  I use to take the change in my pocket, and give each person a coin, by the time I got to Dundas (I think that's right, Eaton Center), I was out of change.  I know it wasn't much but I did this every day, and I would get more change if I stopped in and got a drink along the way.  I always felt that, if I was doing okay it was better to share what God gave me. 

However, I have a few stories to tell, first one: a girl in my office had bought a coat for a gentlemen and he turned around and sold it. We were told that some of these guys like the drink to much, and don't want help (ie: shelter) as they don't want to live by the rules.  two: I had a friend who worked one of the shops by Wesley and Younge, this elderly laddy dressed in Polyester (very cold clothing) all year long, would collect about $80 a night, she lived in a two bedroom apartment with all the cable stations and two cats (at that time I couldn't even afford that), she was also on social assistance. We know this cause she told us, she use to cash the change in at the local laundry matt.  third: There was this lady, who would sit on the corner of Bay and Bloor, with a sign that said please help me, I have two kids and were homeless. She was arrested, no kids and lived better than some executives that work in that area (she was recognized by someone, or she slipped up one day, not sure on the details but her rouse was exposed).  fourth: I once over heard two guys (who wanted to get money to buy tickets for the game), plan on doing the squeegee thing. fifth: While living in Saint John, NB in the '90's - I knew of man who was well, they say up there on Wealthiest for that area at that time, beg for money in front of the food market. His chant nickle, dime, quarter - never said anything else - he didn't live in  a good area of town; I think he was more like a scrooge, and when he retired this is what he choose to do. I remember following him home to see if the rumors were true. I can't speak about his portfolio but I can tell you he was not hurting. sixth: again in Saint John, NB - I was student and one day while waiting for the bus, I was approached by a female saying she needed money for food for her baby, I gave her my last seven dollars, didn't even keep the bus fare, later she was walking the street puffing away on her new pack of cigarettes.

So while I agree with you, we should do our best, I'm always torn on this issue. Am I helping someone who is taking advantage, or some one in need indeed. I never know, so I do what my heart tells me to do, and yes, there have been times when I said no (my car is down the street with my pregnant wife and were out of gas), this makes me feel bad, cause you really never know do you.

There is an old saying about someone who steals from you, if they had too, they must have needed it more than you did. I try to think of this. Who knows one day that might be me living on the streets. Do on to others what you would want done onto you.

Yes, I agree with you. Torn is the main feeling I get with homeless people. I'm still undecided though.

Great thread...I don't remember discussing this one before.

Our shelter has an annual walk to raise funds.  I either walk & support, or support.   My sense is that providing proper facilities and a handup and care is important. This shelter provides relationship (friendship), safety, counselling, food, training, equipment (safety shoes), medical care, transition housing, and so on.

I struggle with people on the streets sitting asking for money. I generally do not give money to them, though sometimes have been known to. 

It's tough though.

We had a woman come to the door asking for money to catch the bus.  Had a fellow do the same.  The shelter isn't far away.  Told them how to get there to get a pass.  They weren't impressed.  Later determined the same woman went to a friend's house a block away a week later.  It ended up being in the paper of the scam being run.

I think many people are torn about what to do and many are scam artists.

there is a guy who sits forlornly in a wheel chair near a highway over pass.  He really looks pathetic and i am sure the tourists are heartbroken.  As a regular though I have sen the police roust him and his chair and off he walks.  I have also seen him change spots with another pathetic "homeless " guy who takes his turn.

And yet I don't doubt there are really needy, mentally confused souls who need real help.

There is quite a scam in Toronto of folks travelling church to church for money.  Now most of the churches share info and have realised that some of these folks net hundreds of dollars weekly.  Even when you give food vouchers,m which is what we do, they just sell them to others.

It isn't an easy problem. 

I find that this discussion is often about the individual person asking for change and how they got they (and what they might use the money for)  it is not often discussed about why he is there.

Canada has some serious poverty problems i think in 2006 the UN gave the canadian goverment a slap on the wrist, issuing a report that discussed the high level of child poverty in an OECD country like canada was unaccptable.

We should be treating the disease not the symptoms in my opinion.  What are the reasons for these people resorting to begging (apart from "not working hard" or "not doing well in life")?

I always try and give these people change, no one begs unless they have, i am embarassed for them.  When i dont have any money i try and have some words with them, spending time talking to someone is sometimes just as good as money to them.

All people like you do is add to the problem

Why get a job when I can rack up some spare change ?

Every meal we eat

Every night we spend in a warm bed

Every time we change clothes

It has to be earned

Thousands of people are doing it so what is their excuse

Try being part of the solution instead ..... save the money for something that will get you ahead !

It's all very well to say "it has to be earned", but the scam artists really irritate me because some people are in great need of help. Try getting off the street if your family has abandoned you or is otherwise unavailable, and you have a severe illness like schizophrenia. We need more resources for these people. The way the system is now, they can't work without suppport and many landlords will not have you as a tenant or make excuses to evict you if you have a mental illness (this would be in the absence of other inappropriate behaviour that would normally get you evicted according to the terms of your lease, obviously).

I don't give change as a general rule. It makes me feel bad sometimes though...I have bought people coffees and food when I have had time.

I read an article about living on the streets in Toronto which highlights how lucrative it can be.

 who wants to be homeless?

Maybe rather than give to individuals - give to the different agencies - soup kitchens, shelters etc.

No one does, and I could bet a large amount of money that ACTUAL homeless in need people never expected to be in the state their in.

Kyle

I was advised of someone who chose to stay out of the shelter, or any building.  That doesn't mean they were choosing to be homeless, just couldn't live with anyone near them.

i thought so, why would they be homeless then? some people seem to think its laziness/drugs/alcohol? but i dont buy that.

Nicely said Kyle.

People fall through the cracks.  Our systems are broken and no one seems the least bit interested in fixing them.

I know a person just discharged from a rehab unit.  The unit had arranged for a physician to take the care - this was essential as there are medical issues and prescription renewals.  The physician decided to not take the patient and not inform either the clinic or the patient. Weeks have gone by and an exercise in futility experienced.  The only way this individual got a doctor was by someone else asking for a favour.

Not one single agency that exists to support this person came through to help.  There but the grace of someone on the outside was aid provided.

The system is broken.  Living breathing people need it to be fixed.

LB

When a person is down in the world, an ounce of help is better than a pound of preaching.     Edward G. Bulwer-Lytton (1803-1873)

 i try and keep 5-10 dollar timmie cards on me and when i see these people i give them one or two. Also, if i have the time to spare, i like to take someone out to lunch or diner!

 I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned that sometimes it's illegal to do so.  I don't really see how giving someone change is going to do them much good (most of the time).  I have bought people food.

As mentioned by others already, I think giving to organizations helps more than giving one person some change.

I've also come across people scamming - asking for $ for the bus but when you give them a bus ticket they just pocket it and stay at the same location asking for bus money.  The first time I saw this I thought they were a student who forgot their pass (there's been days I've accidently left my wallet at home and had to borrow off of friends for the day).  I was annoyed when I found out he was just trying to get money from students, we probably had a greater need for the money than he did!

While that is true, you dont see police men walking around and keeping their eyes glued on homeless people.

 I am not going to break a law just because the police aren't watching.

I think that the legal implications (for either the giver or the panhandler) would especially affect those who are tempted to give but aren't sure if they should or not.  These laws also bring some attention to why they are needed in certain areas - problems with aggressive or violent panhandlers or with those who interrupt traffic.

I know that giving money to a homeless person does not make them a panhandler, but if no one was willing to give money to people on the street, many of the panhandler problems would be diminished.

we are still discussing this like homeless people have a choice... i guess in a lot of cases they do, but it still makes me wonder why they would choose homelessness.... i mean whats the alternative? a low paying job with no security, dignity or mobility allowing them to live in poverty?? but not homeless... hmmm?

My sense is they don't; hence, the requirement for shelters, transition houses, connecting to services and support.

My sense kyle is that you assume that all who are begging on the street are homeless.

I suggest that is an assumption. 

there are many who beg in the streets of Toronto as an occupation.  You only have to note the influx of 20's and their dogs during the tourist months to recognise that for some it is a choice.

there is no doubt that there are mentally ill homeless who are not getting help.  that is in part due to changes in laws decades ago that resulted in many scitzophrenic people being thrust out with no where to go.

that large shelters are unsafe or feel unsafe to these fragile people is a reall issue.  To use a shelter over night but then be put on the street during the day is not an answer.

To force medical help on some one isn't an answer either but without medical help they won't get better either.

I think there are  very separate groups that we see on the street and it can be hard to differeniate

- the truly mentally ill , they may have shelter options or they may not

- the beggar who is using this as a job.  They can make very good money.  They come and go with the good weather.  They harass you in your car and will be ticketed and moved along by police.  They almost always for some reason have dogs.  Toronto's version of the seasonal worker  ( I alwasy give the dog a cookie from my pocket)

- the folks who actually are choosing to live on the street.  Some are mentally ill, some are the "hippies" of this generation.  They have zoned out and dropped out.  They are quite different than the mentally ill.

-

 this makes sense considering what i mentioned about the alternatives.  why would someone choose to do this? because its easier and makes more money than say working at a fast food restaurant.  i think this should change.... there is a reason people

it is an assumption to say that those who are begging are homeless and in fact the rates of poverty i am sure are much higher than the rates of homelessness.

i still think we are focusing on that individual's "choices" does anyone think someone might be in this type of situtation because of something else... another reason someone might be poor or homeless?  apart from all these individual traits (mental illness, laziness... etc)

or is it simply based on that individual?

 Kyle, I think many people who might be poor or homeless for other reasons than mental illness, laziness, or addiction (which is also related to mental illness, quite often one can lead to the other) do not tend to panhandle (or even sit on the street, not directly begging for money).

I am assuming that those who were living paycheque to paycheque and lost their job would be spending their time job searching and working with the agencies that are out there to help them.  These would not be the people you would typically see sitting on the street.

Some homeless people have jobs, again, these are not the people you would typically see sitting on the street.  When either of these two groups are not busy working/looking for work I would expect them to either be at their home or a shelter.

The one exception I can think of at the moment outside of these groups are young people who would have a problem getting a job (either because of their age or their own insecurities).  The best thing would not be to give them money, but to give them the information of a youth agency that could provide the help and support they need.

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2008/10/06/homeless-head-injury.html

I was really surprised to find out that an estimated half of homeless people have suffered a traumatic brain injury.  The supports just aren't there.

i agree.

How do you treat a disease without looking at the symptoms ?

Sometimes the answer is simple people are lazy not everyone who fell down drunk and hit his head has brain trauma

I've seen some of the same homeless guys in this city  for years ... YEARS .... you would think that they would be dead from living on the street but they are not , they just go from shelter to shelter to living in parks in the summer to shacking up with other homeless people in abandoned buildings to getting spare change from suckers

Some of them are getting disability some are even getting welfare how do I know ? because I've asked them plain and simple when approached for money, "Why are you not working?"

You may also find it hard to believe but being homeless is a lifesyle for some people no bills to pay  no responsibility whatsoever you get new clothes from the shelter food from the shelter showers from the shelter and cheap booze from the spare change

I even saw a panhandler on the street on his CELL PHONE. What in the heck was he doing with a cell phone????

What's next panhandlers with LAPTOPS ?

Large shelters are unsafe ?

Large shelters have RULES you can't be drunk or high they have curfews you can't sleep around all day you have to get out for several hours which is why you only see homeless people at certain times of day or night.! 

some people might argue that techonology is a means to success? 

i just think we are only looking at some of the more obvious symptoms. 

i dont know many people who say, "oh homeless people are victims" 

many of the more difficult to symptoms to deal with ask us to change the way we see these people who are living in the margins...  i was raised to see homeless as lazy addicts, ive changed, although it is detrimental to me and my family to see these people as victims, the reality in many situtations is that they are. 

although i do agree that some not all homeless(yes you might see someone in the city over and over) are their because they want to be.  lets not paint everyone with the same brush.

But if you really think about it, they are. Even the fakers.

Real homeless people are victims of not having protection of weather, criminals, etc. Fake homeless people are victims of having so much selfishness-ness that eats their whole world and starve for much more money than they possess.

i agree that they are victims.

Thats a very good point, but just the other day I refused to give a homeless person money because 1. my parents were rushing me, 2. he looked well off. He started screaming at me and cussing at me in an unknown language, and I was almost forced to give him 50 cents.

I agree. Giving money to an individual. while perhaps making you feel good about yourself and set your conscience at ease, does diddly squat to fix this person's problem. Giving to shelters, or agencies that help with addiction or mental illnesses would be better spent in my opinion.

When I lived in Toronto in 2002 this Notorious woman dubbed as the 'shaky lady'  was revealed as a massive homeless scam.  

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1024896474326_20305674

That link will show you more about the situation, but basically she brought in thousands of dollars per week and lived in a plush condo, and had no need for financial assistance at all, and she was on disability, owned a big screen tv, leather furniture and a computer.   The article claims she said she only made 40-50$ per day, but I know a friend of mine who pan handled in toronto and looks perfectly healthy and she got 40-50$ easily in an hour of begging.   That disgusted me and from after that point I never ever give to people on the street begging. 

wow... thats terrible.. maybe anyone who begs is the same?

i wonder what happens when we see people as being the same based on a singler instance or example?

Well said Kyle.

Did you know that shelters were supposed to be a temporary fix!  They were never intended to be permanent solutions.  The goal was to temporarily house individuals until permanent affordable housing was obtained. 

But guess what:  There is no affordable housing and the shelters have become permanent fixtures and the powers that be pat themselves on the back because someone else takes care of those homeless people.

I agree with Crazyheart, it is better to support agencies that are seeking solutions and, in particular, agencies that are seeking permanent solutions such as affordable housing for the mentally and physically disabled.

LB

I'm so sick from the drink
          I need home for a rest
         Take me home

         Spirit of the West, Home for a Rest

The sad reality of it is that most of the Homeless people in Toronto really are mentally ill. When those Mental Health wards were closed down these people were just put onto the streets.

I'll agree with those that say they just use the money for drugs. Because its true. Ive always wanted to open a hospital or a giant hostal just to give them a place to sleep during the winter. Thats when my heart breaks the most.

For those out there, i would even go as far as say dont give your change. If you care enough to help one of them, offer a meal. The ones in real need would appreciate that over any toonie or loonie you'd give them.

I didn't post that example as a rule, but to advise of reasons why some choose not to offer help to homeless. 

Yes, a lot of them are mentally ill.   What do you think we should/could do to help these individuals?  Other than what we are now doing?   Have you ever approached a homeless person and asked them why they were there?  is that our right when they ask for our monitary support do we deserve to know why they ask?  Is it much different than when someone applies for unemployment or welfare and has to explain why?

I always wonder why people think giving to individuals would 'help' these people get properly supported as opposed to just being a temp fix.   Possibly the temp fix enforces the act itself.  

Greetings!

That's a wonderful idea and action, tenxreality!

Hope, peace, joy, love . . .

 i'd just like to point out that somehow fixing the "system" is not going to solve the problem. a lot of homeless people reject the "system," any shelters or rehab centers.

and as to give or not to give? WWJD, everyone.

if i have, i always give.  i can't help it. my husband is the same way :)  what they choose to do with the money is up to them.  if they are scam artists, oh well.  if they are drug addicts, oh well. it's not for me to judge. my smile always receives one in return.  i'm content with that.

and further more, the system doesn't work.  that's why so many of these people avoid it and for many others, it is just plain unattainable (due to mental illness, lack of education, addiction, etc.)  birthstone's avatar says it best.  keep your coins. i want change. the system is broken and needs to be fixed.  drug addiction and alcohol are just as much an illness as someone who suffers mentally.  for some reason, society always finds it easier to point a finger at them instead of extending their entire hand to them.  

ironically, the government gladly gives when it's approached by a well manicured hand dawning a rolex watch and an armani shirt.  there are always lotsa "breaks" for those who don't really need them.

"it is a tragic mix-up when the united states of america spends $500,000 for every enemy soldier killed and $53 anually on the victims of poverty" martin luther king jr.

Every homeless person has a choice.  It is THEIR choice to be homeless and to sit on the street and beg.  There are government as well as private agencies who attempt to assist these people.  Lots of them are scam artists.  I know several so-called street bums who rack up about $60 an hour taking loose change from sympathetic people.

what are we teaching them, if we continue to hand them money???

Every homeless person, drug addict, "bum", is somebody's child.

"In as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me"

You have a very simplistic, judgemental, and entirely wrong view of a complex social problem.

If nothing else, we are teaching them that someone, somewhere cares, even a little. Somethimes that's all it takes to make all the difference.

While even I wouldn't want to assume what my initial emotional reaction would be, considering I'm certain mood, recent history, and a number of other factors might play into it, I'd like to think I'd share of what little bounty I might have.

Is the person asking?  "Deny not that which is offered, refuse not that requested."

amen witch.

great point.  what if it was a child?  a 4 year old boy persay?  would that make it easier to give?  why should the package of the person make a difference?

i also find it ironic that many in society willingly pay big corporations insane amounts of money to exploit third world countries and ravage our environment, but so easily deny and judge the person on the street who is asking for a few bucks. either way you don't know where your money is really going, but i would rather err on the side of an act of kindness than keeping my eyes wide shut.  it's not for me to judge, but to give.  to treat others as i would want to be treated.

i haven't always been able to stop and talk, but when i have, some of the conversations i have had have changed my life forever.  there have been times i've only had a minute to stop and smile, and i could and would swear that the eyes of an angel were smiling back at me.  god works in mysterious ways.