This is a wonderful project. I can only hope that the UCCan will help with peoples spiritual needs there as well as their temporal ones. What an excellent opportunity to share the Gospel.  If the Fellowship Baptist denomination gets involved in this area of the world I will be only too happy to donate to the cause.

THe point of this is NOT to evangelise.  THe point is to feed people.  And I assume that we will do so by working with our partners on the ground as that is the UCCan practice

They already have their faith traditions and leader - whatever and whoever they might be. We could give them Bibles, or we could spend the money that it would have cost to purchase and ship the Bibles on things that they really need like food and medicine.

Ya gotta be stingy with that living water. Not enough to go around.

Strange -- I thought you were going as members of the body of Christ. Don't get me wrong, I applaud and encourage you in your efforts to fill the temporal needs of people -- Jesus did so Himself. He also took care of their spiritual needs. Why just fill bellies when instead you can also nourish souls.

Hard-print copies of the Bible are not absolutely required to do evangelism. To try to excuse one's failure to evangelise on the cost of Bibles is weak.

As to your "...whatever and whoever...," if Christian churches are in place led by godly Christian men, that would be wonderful. If  that is not the case, visiting Christians really should take the opportunity to introduce the people to the saving power of Jesus.   

I am going to applaud the original post, and ignore the side-track.  

Thanks for posting this one, uccan.

Just as an idea for others......not too many people check the UCC website at my church, so I photocopied a set of small, brightly coloured inserts to go in our summer bulletin, and set up an information site in the narthex about the Emergency Appeal.  This tragedy hasn't got such widespread media attention that everybody knows about it yet.

This is the United Church and so if we were to send missionaries over it would be people of either gender. That said, I believe our money would be better spent with donations of supplies that they truly need - instead of paying for these people to be there (airfare, accommodation, food, etc.).

Good onya UCC :3

It's gonna be tough, what with us 'westerners' being banned and all from certain parts of the country.  It takes real compassion and character and schmartz to be able to go there to help people.

That presumes that they don't already have their own religion/spirituality/what they find meaningful.

Why do you presume that?

And then why do you presume that other people not you should be spreading what you find to be very meaningful?

If their "own religion/spirituality..." isn't Christianity, then they need to be evangelised to, so that they might be saved. A person is only rescued from the wages of sin through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I do evangelise, encourage others to do so, and salute them when they do.

Argh, vomit.  ...sorry...nothing else to say on this hot night.

So, will you be volunteering to go over there then?

No, because I do not feel called into missionary work right now. However, as I said in my initial response to this thread, "If the Fellowship Baptist denomination gets involved in this area of the world I will be only too happy to donate to the cause."

Bev Oda is going to match every dollar you donate.

Do either of you, Saul_now_Paul or MorningCalm, really think you are being funny or cute or even remotely emulating the Man you claim to follow, in this thread?

You want to toss snide comments and insult the UCCan there are dozens of other threads out there, but to derail and demean an appeal for humanitarian aid is pathetic even for you two.

btw, don't answer my question, it was rhetorical ....

LB

----------------------------------

I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels.

     John Calvin (1509-1564)

Not at all being cute or funny.  Christian is who we are. Jesus is not a shirt we put on and take off whenever we want.  We don't take him off when we enter another country because he may be offensive.  We don't take the great commission as the not so great commission, or the commission to be avoided.

You don't want to offer Jesus to starving people?  Is it better to wait until they are fat and happy?

Sorry I lack tact.

Well said brother.

I haven\t watched the video.  But here is a link to text about the appeal:

http://www.united-church.ca/communications/news/response/110715

A couple e-mail I recieved today through a list I am on dealing with the lectionary readings (this Sunday we have teh feeding of the multitudes in Matthew 14) seem to speak to the comments made by MC/Jae and SnP:  (both quotes come from clergy and I believe both are USan)

First (responding to an earlier message):

And here is another one from the same thread:

Hi Gord,

Matthew 14 These were not starving, dying people - but they were there for the bread of life.  Jesus is the bread of life.

People were flooding from the cities to see Jesus. He had a reputation for healing the sick.  Did he give profound speeches? Sure, but would that draw multitudes out, or were they there for the miracles? They were dragging along their sick to be made well.

The bread and fish were no more plain old than the manna from heaven, or the wine he made from water, or Jesus himself.

Your buddy may think it's all plain old, but of course he has seen the Matrix, Avatar, and all three Lord of the Rings movies.  They were lucky to get a fuzzy picture of Milton Berle with a wad of tin foil squeezed over the rabbit ears back then.

When I see someone near death, I am far more concerned about their spiritual well being than the physical.  Eternity is really long.

Hmmm ... quite an idea!  Feeding the starving with "the bread of life". Sorry I can't stop to comment now.  I had nothing for lunch but a couple of slices of "the bread of life" and I've really got to go find something more substantial.  I would sell my soul for a peanut butter sandwich right about now. 

When we show we care by coming to someones aid we are showing love. When we care enough to give time and money to feed the children, we are showing love. When we hold the dying and comfort the families, we are showing love. Would Jesus have us talk about love or "do" love? Would he prefer we pull out our Bibles and read scripture, or would he rather we "be" the bible to a dying nation? God IS love. Love never fails, but we need to show up in order for others to know it exists.

Amen Waterfall

There are people in the world so hungry, that God cannot appear to them except in the form of bread.

       Mohandas K. Gandhi

beautifully said waterfall.  amen. 

If you want to keep up with the latest from the UCC related to the Horn of Africa, follow the new central page for this appeal: www.united-church.ca/africa

Not a lot there yet, but more will be coming over the next several weeks.

Thanks all for your support!

Thank you for sharing that with us Admin,,, We appreciate it!

Tao/Wolfie

Also... for those so inclinded... we've also created a few web badges and ads you can add to your website for this cause.  Our only request is that you link to the United Church page from the button: www.united-church.ca/africa.

Download the badges and ads here.

waterfall, bless your words.  Loving other people and helping them should be evangelising enough.

Ahh, your hatred of Islam shows yet again, young padawan :3  Show them darkies that they're following the wrong winner, eh?

I guess working at Timmies gives you the skills necessary to do that?

EDIT:  it is alright to admit that you have no real idea what is going on in Somalia, m'dear.  In fact, "I don't know" is a sign of great wisdom.

D'yknow that people are very vulnerable when they are starving, right?  Do you really think it would be ethical to try to evangelize/convert at that point?

You do understand how humans work, right?  Physical needs need to be met before Spiritual needs?

Can you see the UCC as doing Jesus' work by offering aid to those in Somalia?

Your statements make me think that you think that some of the people in Somalia need 'Jesus', so, you can really somehow see into their hearts and know what they think and that any faith tradition that they do have that doesn't jibe with yours is erronous and wrong?  Can you see how that view can be seen as arrogant?

O I'm sure there is much more I could learn about both evangelism and life in the Horn of Africa. I can't give you the "I don't know" that you seek. I can reply with "I could learn more." As for how I learn evangelism, it is through reading the Bible, hearing good biblical sermons in church, and practical experiences on the streets of Toronto. Peace in Christ.

To MorningCalm and Saul_now_Paul, 

Why are you separating faith and works? Works are the fruit of faith and the United Church is showing that with this appeal.

"You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete." -James 2:22

​

Faith and good works are both wonderful things. I love that the United Church wants to do the latter for the people in question. I would just like to encourage it to share the former with the people there as well.

We can see from this thread why Western aid workers aren't welcome; conditional aid is a nauseating notion.

Jay and Paul: I'm sure that Baptists do aid work as a ministry to God; not because they can collect 'saved souls' like notches on a bed post. Your arrogance is epic.

martha, I'm not even sure if Paul is a Baptist. As for the denomination that I'm in, the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches in Canada, our "FAIR (Fellowship Agency for International Relief/Rehabilitation) is a channel for funding, enabling Fellowship Baptists to touch hurting lives internationally in the name of Christ." (source: http://www.fellowship.ca/qry/page.taf?id=327 )

One of the two main criteria that we use to decide on what parts of the world we want FAIR to be involved in is "2. Will the giving of aid enhance existing ministries of evangelism/church planting or encourage such ministries to begin?" (source:  http://www.fellowship.ca/qry/page.taf?id=330 )

We seek to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, meeting peoples spiritual and temporal needs. This is something which I hope the United Church of Canada will do in the areas of the world in which it serves. It may well be doing that for all I know. However, here in this thread, all that has been mentioned is the meeting of temporal needs. If there is a UCCan plan in place to meet peoples spiritual needs in the Horn of Africa please do feel free to elaborate on it. I would love to find out more.

Peace in Christ.

MorningCalm, even the FAIR material on their effort in Somalia doesn't mention a word about spiritual aid, or whatever you call it. 

http://www.fellowship.ca/qry/page.taf?id=537

Why are you being so hard on the UCC for issuing a statement that essentially says the same thing? You're just being an ass.

If you can't support a good cause for some reason that's fine, move on. Your words make it seem like you would rather see these people starve then receive food without so-called spiritual aid attached. That's rather disgusting. Nobody is going to be evangelized that way and that's the truth.

The jihadists don't help, either :3

Hey MC you know if we took all those bibles you keep hitting people over the head with we might be able to turn them in for food and end world hunger. Now if that were to happen then truly you could say that it was a miracle.

Thanks for the laugh Dreamerman!

So your love and aid is conditional?  Is that really Christlike?

The Horn of Africa is facing its driest period in sixty years, and people are increasingly unable to cope. Added to the drought, this is a region which suffers insecurity and conflict, population growth, poverty and over-utilization of land. We need to help people in their own country but we are also seeing an alarming rise in refugees in Kenya and Ethopia.

Over the course of the past two weeks, more than 1,200 Somalis have arrived every day in the Dadaab refugee camp in northern Kenya – 80 per cent are women and children.

Many have walked for weeks, in gruelling conditions, to get there. Approximately half the children are malnourished on arrival - many have been separated from their families.

[...]

Global Acute Malnutrition has now reached emergency levels in 11 districts; and the number of people needing food assistance is expected to rise to as many as 3.5 million.

In Ethiopia, I saw last weekend how a lack of food, water, basic services, and dwindling livestock is devastating pastoralist communities. Making matters worse, the country also faces the threat of flooding in the second half of the year (particularly in the west).

The number of people targeted to receive food assistance in the coming six months was increased at the beginning of this week from 3.2 million to more than 4.5 million. The need is urgent.

 USG briefing to Member States on the situation in the Horn of Africa, 15 July 2011

(Bold emphasis mine)

These people need food for the body.  They need sustainable environments.  Not empty rhetoric and piety from well fed outsiders.

LB

---------------------

Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. 

      Matthew 6:1-4

Our love is unconditional. Our aid is conditional. We are limited by the time and resources that we have. Thus, we seek to follow the Christian way of serving peoples temporal and spiritual needs as best we can. We believe in doing as Jesus did, and we must focus our work where we believe the Spirit of God is calling us.

I don't disagree that they need food for their bodies. I also believe that they need food for their souls, as do we all. Do you consider the Gospel to be "empty rhetoric and piety..."?

Peace in Christ.

You are welcome!

What to you is the difference, if any, between evangelism and "...hitting people over the head..."?

Peace in Christ.

Well lets see I guess in your brand of evangelism you would probably use the old KJV  of the Bible you could really do some damage with that heavy puppy. While others may use a lighter version such as the NIV or the NRSV they are not so bad on the noggen yet you still would'nt want any them upside the head. So I guess no matter how you slice it the Bible isn't very  palatable no matter how much ketchup you put on it.

Has anyone heard from aid workers what aid has been getting through most recently? Im glad there are lots of organizations trying, but I'd like to donate to one that is successfully getting food and water and medicine through.

Written words are incapable of action.   Therefore it is not the Word that is empty but those who the mouth words and do nothing or worse, use those written words as the currency to be paid for a loaf of bread.

LB

----------------------------

To prevent famine, one plow is worth a million sermons, and even patent medicines will cure more diseases than all the prayers uttered since the beginning of the world.

      Robert Green Ingersoll

In my first post to this thread I said that I encourage the UCCan in its striving to meet peoples temporal needs.

As far as the currency of which you speak, I take it you're suggesting that the evangelical way is to only give bread as a trade off for listening to the message. How ridiculous. How do you know that it is not the other way around. Perhaps we are only willing to give the message if people are willing to eat bread.

No. Rather, we consider both the word and the bread gifts to be freely given. In contrast, by what has been demonstrated in this appeal, the UCCan seems to think only the latter important to give.

Your words.  Your conditions.  Your currency.

LB

------------------------------

There cannot be a surer rule, nor a stronger exhortation to the observance of it, than when we are taught that all the endowments which we possess are divine deposits entrusted to us for the very purpose of being distributed for the good of our neighbour.”

     John Calvin (1509-64), 

Hi, still same question. I want to donate to Horn of Africa relief. I do not know whether to do it through church or some other organization. Does anyone know which aid groups are getting through there?

I think you are correct to be sceptical of whether anything actually will get through to the people.

Every news story I read has the Islamist groups stopping all aide.

The tragedy is that there is help being offered but none being accepted.

The people on the ground only know that they are starving