Hi Motheroffive,

I thank you for your honesty - living with long-term illness that can also be debilitating is taxing and challenging. I am wondering how it is that your faith is being challenged? I would rather not infer my own meaning, so I would be grateful for any reflection you might be willing to offer?

Blessings.

i have multiple sclerosis, and i know that for myself, i look at it as having to get really creative with my career and family life whenever i have a relapse.

what is your experience, motherof5??

Thanks for your responses. I'm finding my life restricted quite severely because I never know when an attack is going to strike. I could be out shopping or on my way to work and then I'll have to find a washroom quickly. As I have a 35 minute commute (I like to use transit for environmental and cost reasons), this is getting to be a problem. As well, I can arrive at work feeling fine and then, part-way through my time there, I can't function very well. My overall energy has been low for years and it's hard not to think of myself as lazy when I see the kinds of things that others can do (study for ministry, renovate a home...)

Yes, it is a challenge to my faith journey in that I do question things like "why me". It isn't fair that some of us are afflicted with conditions that become unbearable/painful while others walk around in perfect health. If we're measuring on the scale of karma, I don't think I've done anything any worse than some of those folks (I am aware that karma isn't part of Christian dogma) and if we're talking simply random events (some people are asked to bear more than others), I'm sick of it. If I hear that "God doesn't give us more than we can handle" one more time, I think I will scream. It's so patronizing. "God is love" -- well, I'm bordering on cynical here -- pain is not love, in my opinion.

I guess you could put me in the "anger" stage of the steps in coming to terms with death and illness. I've lived in denial for a long time -- maybe someday I'll get to acceptance but I don't see that day arriving soon.

you know what?? i get great solace, and a lot of laughs, from a website about multiple sclerosis, and the guy who runs it tells pretty much the same story you do, about the platitudes that others give and stuff like that.

its for ms, but you might get a kick out of it too...

www.multiplesclerosissucks.com

try checking it out, and see if it helps at all, at least to give you a laugh!!!

motheroffive (and sighs, for that matter) - no, it isn't fair. It is worse than not fair, for God to do something like this to you would be downright abusive. I can't tell you why it should be you who has to carry this burden, and I don't think anyone really can. What little I know, is simply that this is not God's desire for you, or any crap like that. God did not "give" this to you. It is an unfortunate consequence of the freedom of our existence. You have said that God loves you - and part of that is that God grieves and rages with you. The best I can offer you is the love and support of the people around you. Maybe you can find some of that here, or in other web fora, or in support groups. Or simply in normal social circles. Your friends and family, and, ideally, your church family, are God's hands, and are the instruments through which God will offer you love and support. This is one of the times I like to quote the creed - we are not alone.

Are you saying Rev. Matt , that suffering isn't part of God's plan for us?

if i hear one more person spit out some platitude about how my suffering from ms is part of gods plan for me, i'm gonna scream.
and please, that one about how god doesn't give you more than you can handle?? don't give me that one either.

Sighsnootles

You said:

if i hear one more person spit out some platitude about how my suffering from ms is part of gods plan for me, i'm gonna scream.
and please, that one about how god doesn't give you more than you can handle?? don't give me that one either.

While I can appreciate your feelings, I am going to let my question to Matt stand. If you feel the need to scream as a result than by all means do so.

I take the question seriously even if it comes across as a platitude to you.

* screams*

come and walk a few days in my shoes... well, actually i'm not walking very well today, so make that come and stumble around in my shoes...

This issue of what God's plan for us is comes up frequently. It is very hard to believe that a benevolent God, the God that is Jesus, has specific agendas that include cruel illnesses, the death in poverty of small children and the Holocaust. The United Church theology does not endorse the idea of enobling suffering. It does ask that we lean on God to help us through suffering. That is not at all the same thing. Surely a mind that can embrace the concept of faith in that good God can also encompass a warring evil at work in the world? Metaphorically (or, if you wish, literally) God brought our world into being out of the chaos: to me chaos is still a force to be reckoned with. It is the evil of dis-order and dis-ease: cancer, hatred, genocide and, yes, ulcerative colitis...and, if you believe prayer helps then you have mine, Motheroffive (well, you have it anyway).

come and walk a few days in my shoes... well, actually i'm not walking very well today, so make that come and stumble around in my shoes...

No thanks - I've done enough stumbling around in my own over the years , the details of which I prefer not to share with the general public right now.

I think what we believe about God and how God works in our lives can help us to cope with our pain.

Certainly when people throw one line zingers like "your pain is part of God's plan" or "God never gives you more than you can cope with" ,without further conversation, it can seem patronizing and dismissive to the person stumbling and in pain from a debilitating illnes. If you hear that sort of thing repeatedly I can imagine that it would grate on your nerves.

For me though, to say that suffering isn't part of God's plan is problematic. I'm left wondering why suffering has to be a part of my life at all. If God loves me so darn much then why am I not spared from this suffering. To say that suffering is a consequence of our freedom/free will also doesn't cut it for me either because I kinds think suffering in exchange for freedom is kind of a raw deal. So that leaves me thinking that their has to be some kind of purpose/reason for suffering that I may not fully understand.

It has been helpful for me to think about how my suffering has helped me to grow spiritually. How it is often in my darkest hours that I struggle and wrestle with God and as a result, come closer to God. So I am in a place now where I see my own suffering as a part of God's plan for my life. I also see it in a broader sense in that suffering is part of God's plan for the world. Doesn't mean I'm a masochist or that I welcome suffering - quite the opposite in fact. Doesn't mean that I'm cold hearted and don't mourn the suffering of others either.

I respect that you may not be in a place to hear that now and if you don't agree with me I understand and accept that. I hope that you can respect the fact that I am and give me some space to talk about it.

i have heard people say things like 'suffering is part of gods plan' to me a lot. so yeah, it gets on my nerves. you don't know what i go through to get through a day, and so for you to say that is like if someone patted you on the hand and said 'there there, it will be okay...' how do you know??

instead of saying 'its part of gods plan' or 'god never gives you more than you can handle', how about 'that totally sucks. how can i help you??'

don't dismiss my suffering by telling me what you think i need to hear. ask me what i need, thats the best response to a person suffering from a debilitating illness.

sighs and motheroffive,
I know where you are coming from. I have a physical disability and have recently had a blood clot in my chest and I have had people say "God only does this because he knows you can handle it"

At first I used to be pretty angry and thought God hated me to make me so different (while I was at that teenage age where looks are everything), then I used to just nod whenever my grandmother would say stuff like that. Now I find that church makes me forget stuff like my health, I just started going to church this year and I find myself more confident, happy, and I can deal with my health problems better with a positive attitude. I know this probably doesn't help either of you, but I understand how you are feelng to a degree. OH and I promise that I personally will never make a comment about how God only gives what people can handle to you. :)

LOL!!!

i'm the same way... i find a lot of support in my church as well. my minister gives a darn good sermon on sundays, and everyone there is very in tune with what my needs are.

Sighnootles

Again I draw from my own experience here. Asking me what I needed was helpful at times but sometimes I was best helped when someone said things to me that I didn't think I needed to hear or wanted to hear. In fact if someone hadn't said something to me that I didn't want to hear at the time I would be much worse off than I am now.

The painful reality is that I didn't always know what was best for me or what I needed and another perspective helped.

Thanks for the responses. Perhaps I can get through the anger at some point. I have a hard time trusting that supports are there. I live in a small community so access to health care is difficult, my disease comes and goes so it makes it really difficult to plan anything, I need more sleep than most people, and, for the foreseeable future, I need to eat differently from most people. There are other outcomes that I won't share here but that cause me a great deal of agony (physical and emotional).

I appreciate those of you who understand how difficult it is to hear the platitudes around God, how He's so loving, how He doesn't give anyone more than they can bear. I cannot find that calm centre in all of this -- I want to say to God/dess that I know I'm powerless (well, limited in my power) over this -- OK, OK, I get it. So what's the point? I also recognize that many people have struggles far worse than mine and I'm sad for them.

I wish I could say, "How can I help?" to someone else in difficulty but, most days, it's all I can do to get through my own life and I'm not even doing that very well.

I am quite discouraged.

I must say that your comments struck a chord with me. I personally am not disabled but have a profoundly disabled/medically fragile child. I reached the point that I became soooo tired of the platitudes people were offering up to me that I stopped attending church for several years. If one more person came up to me and informed me that my special child was a blessing and that God would never give me more than I could handle I was going to scream. What I really wanted to say was that perhaps God made a mistake....this was indeed more than I could handle. I did not want their opinions. Quite frankly I wanted to sleep through the night (preferably all eight hours) knowing my child was okay.

I realize that people offer condolences like these to make themselves fell better. They honsetly believe that they are being supportive, empathetic and helpful. However after hearing these comments a million times I have grown tired of them.

If was refreshing to know that someone else agrees.

Refreshing for sure.
Motheroffive I still get angry too.
If you ever want to wondermail me about anything I'm a pretty good listener...er reader in this case. I can't offer much else but my emphathy.

I don't believe pain, or the absence of pain is relevant to God. We suffer with what we have. I have had fibromyalgia for many years now, and suffer at times with excruciating pain. Yet, besides maybe praying for some relief I do not blame him for what my body does. Can I blame my lifestyle, environment, my parent's lifestyles...so on and so on? People want to point fingers, or place an explanation on what cannot be. I cannot be sure of reasons for certain diseases, but bascially it boils down to the fact we are all organisms subject to alterations in our physical make-up and that cannot be prevented or caused from God.
As harsh as I may sound, it's not intended to. I am sorry for all of your inflictions and hope that some relief may come your way. I know I would love for mine to be gone, but one day it will...that I hold faith in.

Dear Motheroffive:
I am 41 years old, am a wife and mother of two young children. I have suffered with Diverticulosis since I was 15 years old (at that time I was hospitalized, expected to die). I too have bouts, not knowing when they will come or where I will be when they happen. They are physically draining sometimes.
This is a disease that normally afflicts adults over 60 years of age.

It is no longer debilitating to me. I've found great relief in paying much attention to the foods that I put into my body. Although I am not a vegetarian, nor a vegan, I do admit that there are foods out there that trigger problems with my digestive tract. So...I tend to be somewhat cautious when choosing foods. Particularly those with a lot of additives and preservatives.

As for faith. It's a very personal thing, and is very different for everyone. I grew up in the United Church, and developed a very strong faith (that I couldn't even begin to explain to you, at a very young age). So it was well grounded, when I first got sick at 15 years of age. I never really questioned God's love for me, it was just something that had been there since I was really small. Which perhaps is the same for you. And if so, perhaps looking back at a time before you were sick would help to redefine your faith at this difficult time.

Someone once told me...God only gives problems to those whom he knows can handle them. I'm not sure why some people are physically more capable than others, but perhaps it's not for me to understand. I do truly believe that we are given our circumstances for a reason, perhaps not one we understand, and may never understand. But maybe someday, your illness (or your experience of living with it), will be beneficial to someone else on this earth. Debilitating diseases can be exhausting on a day-to-day basis. I hope you find peace in your heart (and some extra rest every once in a while) to take care of your family.

I guess I "mis-worded" my response. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, it was not my intention to do so. Sometimes, as I'm sure you know, it is difficult to put into words our emotions. Knowing that God thinks I can handle a problem, gives me great strength and confidence.
Perhaps this is our Hell, and there is none beyond this earth.

Here is a link that will help you Mother of 5.

http://www.ucheepines.org/ulcerative_colitis.htm

Dr. Thrash is an expert at healing methods that won't hurt you with side-effects like drugs will. This will definitely interest you I think. There is hope.

I should have posted the link that shows the list of diseases and illnesses and how to treat them at home. This is very valuable information and might help someone. Here it is:

http://www.ucheepines.org/counseling_sheets.htm

Kaye, you have misunderstood the methods used. I have taken classes in "hydrotherapy" (not hydrothermia as you said) which is a wonderful way to heal the body. And no one "scalds" their feet. They'd end up in the burn unit at the hospital. It is a hydrotherapy treatment that feels wonderful and really works--I am speaking of the foot treatment. It is simple to do and is a healing treatment.

I know Dr. Thrash personally. She is an excellent MD and her methods do work. Since I don't have your reply in front of me, I cannot speak to the other things you said as I only remember the two most misunderstood ones.

The thing about doing these kinds of methods is that they have no side-effects like medications do. If they should not work, no one is injured or hurt. They are simple treatments that I used on my little children. We hardly ever had to go to a doctor because these home remedies worked.

DLee:
I have some serious reservations about the site you posted. They put the alternative in alternative medicine. Some of the methods are dangerous, I'm not sure giving yourself hypothermia will help cancer. Or that vinegar on a sock tied around your head will help a migrane. The site also suggests scalding your feet will help with the pain of migranes. The only thing I think these "methods" will do is distract you the original pain and cause you discomfort in other areas. The "doctor" also relies on anecdotal evidence rather than scientific evidence, double blind tests. She suggests yawning more frequently to ward off schizophrenia.
I would warn against following against any advice found on this site.

now that i've stepped back for a bit, i want to apologize to you all for going off all wierd and nasty about your comments.

especially meredith... i was really harsh, and i am sorry. theres no excuse for the way i talked to you on this thread.

again, my apologies.

Dr. Thrash is respected among her colleagues as a reputable medical doctor. Many of the suggestions she lists are things that have been done in studies or her patients have had work for them.

Don't put her down until you have tried what she says. She has written several books that show how to do these things in detail. I've had these books for over 30 years and I wouldn't part with them for thousands of dollars!!

I also have several hydrotherapy (not to be confussed with hypothermia) books that are excellent and written by several MD's. Perhaps you would want to look at those books as Dr. Thrash sites many studies to prove her points.

DLee:
Sorry if you think I was a little harsh,but I am a lifeguard and have first aid training and I know for a fact hypothermia is harmful. I am in fact talking about hypothermia and so is Dr. Thrash. And I quote from her counselling sheet on cancer:

"THE HYPERTHERMIA TREATMENT
1. Use a hot bath of 108-110 degrees F. to accomplish a "fever" or thermoregulatory elevation of the set point.
2. Obtain a 102-104 degree F. oral temperature and maintain it for 20-40 minutes, as tolerated. etc. "

DLee you said:
and no one "scalds" their feet. They'd end up in the burn unit at the hospital

The definition of scalding is "to burn or affect painfully with or as if with hot liquid or steam." dictionary.com

Dr. Thrash says "Hot foot baths may sometimes be helpful. Make the water so hot it is painful" PAINFUL being the key word.

DLee you said:
Dr. Thrash is respected among her colleagues as a reputable medical doctor. Many of the suggestions she lists are things that have been done in studies or her patients have had work for them.

I didn't see any studies shown on the site.

DLee you said:
Don't put her down until you have tried what she says.

I'm sorry but freezing my body to the point where my heating mechanism breaks down or scalding my feet aren't something I'm willing to try just to "see if it works".

Kaye, the "studies" are in Dr. Thrashes books.

I worked for Dr. Thrash--I KNOW what I am speaking about.

Here are the titles of her books:

"Home Remedies" by Agatha Thrash, M. D. and Calvin Thrash, M. D.

Another one is called, "Natural Remedies" by the same two medical doctors.

What I like about these books is that the remedies will not hurt you. Instead they make you feel so much better. They are home treatments. And lest you think "home" treatments are foolish, I have a book I used for my children called "Taking Care of Your Child" by Robert H. Pantell, M. D., James F. Fries, M. D., Donald M. Vickery, M. D. that has HOME remedies also in it as an option. This book is an excellent one for infants since when they are sick, they cannot tell us what is wrong. These doctors ask questions to help the parent ascertain whether their childs illness is serious or not, whether to use a home treatment or to take them to the Emergency Room.

I won't be posting in this section again. The information is given and it is up to individuals if they want to let it help them or not.

Thanks, DLee, for your information. I did look at the link for treatment of ulcerative colitis and it contradicts a program that I began about 3 months ago which is helping (it's no cure but it helps). Since things have improved, I'm not open to changing directions now. I appreciate the information.

Thanks to everyone for your encouragement. I do get tired easily and that fatigue wears me down sometimes. I wish I didn't have this thing, I wish we were all well, but, in my better moments I can get to my centre realizing that we all have our struggles and issues in this life.

i'm feeling it with you this morning, mo5.... i'm having difficulty getting up and down the stairs, and my vision is off.

needless to say, its another day at home for me. me and my dog.

i'm with you in spirit, my friend!!! *raises coffee mug*

Make mine tea and I'm there!