I find this post negative and judgemental

Not all women share your point of view. sometimes the choice isn't so black and white. we need to support women in their choices relative to their life situation.

Maybe PrazGod should do a little more praising God and a little less judging.

Post abortion trauma is a serious health issue for women and no one should attempt to silence victims of abortion. Too many women who have had abortions suffer in silence. Do you want them to remain silent about their suffering? Why not be honest? Abortion is painful for both mother and her lost child. There is no way to escape this and it is about time those who say they are women's rights advocates - feminists - actually spoke up against the negative impact of abortion on women. Many women regret their abortions and want counselling to deal with the consequences of abortion. Don't ignore their cry for help.

Umm...so...does this mean that you're accepting all unwanted children then? That's jolly decent of you.

Thank you for your offer of help but I have a distinct feeling that you are offering advice on only one side of this issue and I firmly believe that only one answer does not serve all. Anyone seeking abortion advice should also look to impartial sources and find information on both pro and con.

umm, PrazGod? I think that when you say "victims of abortion", that does not just include the mother. That definetely includes the aborted child. And as for silencing, well the child has been silenced through abortion, has it not? And you say that "Abortion is painful for both mother and her lost child." I'm just trying to comprehend how you're putting this together in your head... looking at a part of it... you say that abortion is painful for her child... I don't even know how to respond to that. The person on this forum I agree with almost indefinetely is chickenplusdog. All choices are made relative to one's life situation. Thank you for that, chickenplusdog.

my body, my choice. women have the right to choose to terminate an unplanned pregnancy. women have the right to choose to parent. women have the right to choose to put a child up for adoption. women have the right not to be labelled "victims". abortion is not a forced medical procedure in canada. it is a choice. it is not even very easy to obtain an abortion here, even though it is legal. yes, abortion is traumatic. one can know that one has made the right choice for oneself & still grieve that choice. you will find as many "ask me about my abortion & why i made the right decision" testimonials as you will "regret" testimonials. likely more, really. canadians for choice is a good resource for more information: http://www.caral.ca/index.html

second chance ministries -
Many of the women who have had abortions - and I repeat, have already had abortions - suffer from post (after) abortion trauma. I am in no way whatsoever advising any woman to take the life of her unborn child. God alone has the authority to take life. I am saying to those women who now suffer the consequences of having an abortion, that counselling is available to help with depression and suicidal tendencies and other symptoms of post abortion trauma/syndrome.

Every unborn child, with every breathe it takes, chooses to live.
Every woman who takes the life of her unborn child, is also a victim - she is now the mother of dead child and she will never be able to forget that until she takes her last breathe.

Make no mistake about this. God sees every aborted child. God will punish those who kill the unborn. Pray for the conversion of abortionists. Pray for feminists to give their lives entirely to the Lord Jesus Christ, that they may be obedient to the Word of God and do God the Father's will - Pray for the healing of all women who have had abortions and for those women who have died as a result of abortion

Dear Praz,
What about the men involved? Your posts seem only to focus on the women involoved in an abortion...that's not right....kind of seems like you have a thing against women or something.

Of course aborting a pregnancy is traumatic. I don't think anyone thinks it isn't. But sometimes there are no option, or at least not one that is apparent to those in the situation of an unwanted pregnancy. How might we help these folks? I mean other than condemning them, which I think does no good at all. Or there real options that will make abortion less common? Especially for those who feel they have no other option?

I'm sure you mean well prazGod and even I sometimes think that abortion is misused however having read several of your posts so far I can't help but think that your "help" that you are offering comes from a very closed-minded judgemental place.

Abortion is very often misused but sometimes it is a necessary option. there are medical reasons and I think that rape is often a good reason, to be used for birth control it isn't a good reason. Adoption is highly underused.

Having said that I believe that you could do some serious damage to people that are hurting due to your unintentional one-mindness. I would be very very careful about what you say to people who are suffering or feeling guilt, you may just make it worse if you are unable to show empathy and listen without advise giving.

PrazGod, what do you mean by:

"Pray for feminists to give their lives entirely to the Lord Jesus Christ, that they may be obedient to the Word of God and do God the Father's will"

Are you saying that all feminists are not Christians?
Are you saying that being a feminist is wrong? That in so doing, one is denying God?

I had an abortion and I get it what you are talking about... There is no IF with me, I do suffer from this decision that I made over 5 years ago. I was too young and too scared. I was a Christian at that time and still am today. I will not go to hell for that decision because of the grace that Jesus gave me that gives me forgiveness. I still suffer from the consequeces because I also believe that you can abuse grace... do things and just say well Jesus will wash away my sins with this blood. I do not ever want to abuse grace but walking into that clinic ... I knew what I was doing. The bottom line is that if you feel like praying for me ,... and ultimately this is what this blog thread should be about....Helping those that FEEL they themselves are hurting from abortion, (everyone is a victim... ) I don't think that judgement should be included or is included on this site... becareful when you are judging others and their posts because at that point you are doing what you say no one should do.. .judge. Let's just try and help eachother and assume that the best intentions are there... I think that is part of what makes me a good person...a good christian.. and I hope you hear my despair and hope though these words... and then maybe instead of attacking me or others.. you can help me and others .... we all are here for some reason.

and for me, I wonder if I will ever find someone to share my life with, or if now I never will find someone. This sucks. Sex was the biggest mistake in my life... and I don't know why we did it. Father God, forgive me... and help me to heal...

Yawn.....usually it's a collection of cells...no soul, no brain for the most part....for heaven's sakes get over it.

It is always courageous for any woman to come forward and share the pain she experiences as a result of abortion. Many women are now coming forward and speaking about this. They are silent no more. You are not alone. Don't be afraid to reach out for help. Counselling is available for post abortion trauma. Let us unite in prayer and lift up the woundedness of those who suffer from post abortion trauma, that the Lord may heal them

Praz

No one denying that women do not suffer trauma from having abortions. Yes, they need support in deeling with their feelings and such.

However it is the tone of your posts that put down women and their choices. Of course women are going to feel bad or regret their dec. when there are people like you making them feel bad for what they have decided. This "SEE! I told you so! You know its wrong!" mentality is not a very healthy perspective for someone who has gone through something like this.

Hi Guys

Most woman most certenly do suffer guilt all there lives and take that guilt to the grave with them, what you guys don't understand is the life a mother carries in her womb, if she aborts for what ever reason , that omen will live inside her for the rest of her life, and for most women it causes depression in older age, the men are JUST as guilty if not MORE , they have sex and then walk away from there responsibilties, ist not as easy for a woman to walk away, BUT all is foravible in the eyes of God if you accept Christ as lord and saviour, most havent a clue who Christ is till middle age and have made a complete mess of there lives so the start look at there LAST HOPE , GOD and they search and search till the find him as relise that when you believe that Christ is God in Flesh and that he forgives you , your guilt of the past begines to be washed away, your mind renewed from the the garbage of the world and you beging to fall in love with Christ and start to understand his spirtuial power and athority.

I find it interesting that a lot of male humans seem to have an awfully strong opinion on what the female humans should do with their bodies.

God,

I find it more interesting that a man like you that cannot experience a baby growing in your tummy or dose not work or volunteer in the healthy industry and see the physical & mental damage that abortion causes yrs down the road just comes on these types of forms and throws stabs with NO experience or maturity of your own, but only to attack Christians because through your attitude you try and justify the things you do in your own life.

To all the women who have had abortions, I encourage you to find True Peace, love and healing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who loves you beyong all imagining. I enourage you to pray to the Virgin Mary, who is your spiritual mother and will bring your tears and pain to the cross of her Son. Her intercession is incredibly powerful. You are in my prayers.

As much as PrazGod is trying to appear concerned and benevolent, I fear he is just using this as another way to push his own limited agenda. For shame.

Yes, post-abortion trauma is a real thing and it can take years for a woman to work out the trauma of having had to choose an abortion, but you know what?!?!?!

Her body ... her womb ... her choice ...

Abortion is never easily chosen, and the women that have them don't take the decision lightly.

Hi PaganMom

You said Her body ... her womb ... her choice ... but years down the road when theas women are riddled with guilt and consider suicide because of the conviction God has put in our hearts weather we want to believe that God is or is'nt they start to search for relief and they find it only in Jesus Christ.

But some women will first have to go through the "˜ WHY ME GOD SYNDROM' and when they relies that it wasn't God's doing but YOURS because as you said " my body-my womb-my choice" BUT the most beautiful thing is GOD STILL FORGIVES and you only can get rid of your guilt when you know that your CREATOR has forgiven you for your mistake.

So you see the end result of an abortion is pain pain pain because we live under the lie that life is all about me me me .

I agree that abortion is traumatic and it does end the life of a separate, living human being. However, I think a lot of Christians are very misguided in how to deal with it.

I applaud the efforts of those who want to support women after they have had to make the very difficult choice, but I think less judgement and more empathy than what has been shown by the Topic Starter is necessary in order for this to be effective in any way.

When it comes to preventing abortions that haven't been done yet, I think that praying for the conversion of "abortion doctors", as has been suggested, will do very little to that end. Abortion as a practice, predates our current western medical establishment, and if doctors refuse to do it or it becomes illegal again, it will just continue to happen in private homes or business or alleyways or whatever, and more women hill be horribly injured or die in the process.

What we need to do to stop abortion is to really and truly love other human beings enough to give them other options. This means ensuring that every child is parented well and has a good start in life, so that they make good and responsible choices when they get older; this means ensuring that poverty in the middle of our western affluence is eradicated, so that people can afford to raise the children they bear; this means ending abuse of women, so that none become pregnant by men who have controlled them or raped them or beat them into desperation. And a whole lot of other things, too many to list here, would need to change as well.

I think that people who spend their time protesting at the offices of "abortion doctors" and lobbying the government to reopen the issue of legalized abortion, would be doing themselves much bigger favours by working toward greater social justice, and trying to make this world look as much like God's Kingdom as possible; that will go a lot farther toward ending the *reasons* women end up choosing abortion, and would fix a lot of other really big problems to boot.

Here is a quote from the Net. I forget where I found it.

The way we are with each other is the truest test of our faith. How I treat a brother or sister from day to day, how I react to the sin-scarred wino on the street, how I respond to interruptions from people I dislike, how I deal with normal people in their normal confusion on a normal day may be a better indication of my reverence for life than the anti-abortion sticker on the bumper of my car.

We are not pro-life simply because we are warding off death. We are pro-life to the extent that we are men and women for others, all others; to the extent that no human flesh is a stranger to us; to the extent that we can touch the hand of another in love; to the extent that for us there are no "others."

Today the danger of the pro-life position which I vigorously support is that it can be frighteningly selective. The rights of the unborn and the dignity of the age-worn are pieces of the same pro-life fabric. We weep at the unjustified destruction of the unborn. Did we also weep when the evening news reported from Arkansas that a black family had been shot-gunned out of a white neighborhood?

I'm just wondering if PrazGod is one of those nut cases who has a rifle and is ready to use it!

God bless you Soupie - you are in prayers

Hey PrazGod. God Bless you. You have been attacked, ridiculed, called names and in some cases slandered, and you still pray for those who persecute you. You also reply civily in your posts with out resorting to the same tactics as some others on this site. Don't give up Praz.

To those on both sides of an opinion who take the time to post and respond to posts in a civil and non hostile way manner, thank you.
For the others. It may be a lack of maturity. It may be ignorance. I don't know. You call for open minded speech and so on. But your words tell a whole different story. So I guess any one can ba a hypocrite eh? Not just us Christians. Now, this will be a difference of opinion to some , so I eagerly wait for your response. Much love and God Bless.

Abortion is a terrible thing, a terrible way of dealing with other social problems. I hope that at some point in the future, when and if we have a society where children are valued and welcomed as a precious gift, and parents are supported properly in their task, that we will look back on this as a dark time in our history, like slavery.

I think it makes a statement on our society that people feel they must get abortions. I also think it makes a statement on our society when in a health and aging forum chock full of things on depression, anxiety, suicide, aging parents, children with severe health problems and everything else found within the spectrum of this category, the topic about abortion needs resurrected.

What are our values? We seem to loudly claim there are only two.

Reports come out today from 1,200 scientists that every single child on this globe has been hurt and will be hurt by our enviromental attitudes. They say all our children and for generation upon generation to come will be harmed by droughts, heat waves, rains and a slow gain in sea levels could last for more than 1,000 years.

Think about that for one minute, then devote the rest of your day to the two family values that seem to matter most to people.

Another one-sided and blind argument.

Yes women do suffer from trauma but there are different reasons. Sometimes it is the hormones that rage in a persons body. When your pregnant you get those.

However, in most cases that is usually just a smaller portion of the problem. It's society itself.

All this talk about murdering a kid takes it's toll on a woman. You like being called a murderer by society? You like having a constant reminder that you are somehow "unclean"?

Yeah, that's the stigma against pro-choice women.

Personally I find the idea of exploiting the mental anguish of some women who may have suffered trauma, in order to promote your own religious agenda, to be rather distateful.

I'm jumping in here too to help make sure that if any suffering woman or man who was connected to this issue closely, could look at this thread and know there is a lot of support even when an abortion is chosen.
Until we all ante up, adopt a suffering child or 7, and financially & emotionally support every new mom, we ought to just be quiet.
Bless you!

I support a womans right to choose. However, I can at least understand where the other side is coming from (unlike the anti-gay-marriage lobby, which I cannot understand at all). Abortion does seem kind of ugly--even if it is the best thing to do in a bad situation sometimes.

I believe in some cultures a baby is not named until it is a year old or older--perhaps because so many babies die the parents are trying to protect themselves from grief. So maybe in ALL cultures we try not to think of an unborn baby as a person (with a name, etc) until after he/she is born, because it is too risky to "get attached" and risk heart-break if something goes wrong. There is no doubt that a baby does exist, in some sense, before birth. So I can see both sides of the debate.

What do you think about sex-selection abortion, which is widely practiced in some parts of the world. It seems like a bad idea. But now that the sex can be determined by 4 months. and as long as abortions are available (or even if they are not legally available) it seems that this will happen in some cultures.

Yes consumingfire, praise Praz for her kindness, goodness knows that she would never just be acting just out of her pious narcissism.

Praz, I am a counselor can you tell me what section of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders I could refer to find this "Post Abortion Traumatic Syndrome" that you are speaking of.

Would a person be able to get therapy for this "syndrome" from their MD or a Registered therapist or would it require a trip to Christian Pregnancy Crisis Centre or the local snake oil salesman?

Holden

"What do you think about sex-selection abortion, which is widely practiced in some parts of the world. It seems like a bad idea. But now that the sex can be determined by 4 months. and as long as abortions are available (or even if they are not legally available) it seems that this will happen in some cultures."

I have read posts on more than one christian right web site from people who fervently hope that the "gay gene" is found soon so that fetuses that test positive for the "gay gene" can be aborted. These people are totally serious about this. The abortion is viewed to be justified because it is preventing sin.

Holden, another name taking from literature? As soon as I spotted it I thought of Catcher in the Rye.

Hi itdontmatter and stephengordon

Sex selection abortion would trouble me because it is based on a sexist notion. I know that ethically medical professionals in Canada would not be able to do this. You are quite right however that there are likely other countries that would permit it.

Yes Stephen the Catcher, you got it.

PrazGod; You will be happy to know that I will never get an abortion and I will not be making any women pregnant.

PrazGod, please stop inventing fictitious medical conditions. my mom works in psychiatry and she'll tell you that you're full of crap!

You know, if I ripped a living humna from my body, I'd probably feel bad about it for a while. We need to pray for those who have had abortions and those who are thinking about getting abortions. The Bible makes it clear that God knows us, even in our mother's womb.

I find it infuriating, sad and pathetic to "pretend" to be interested in "post-trauma" and caring and concern for the emotions and feelings that one may hang onto... Yet, one can waltz in and use language like " ripped from my body".

It feels about as Christian as asking a traumatized soldier how it felt to be "cannon fodder".

It feels as Christian as asking someone who lost someone in 911, how it felt knowing "they were charred to bits"

Simply say you hate abortion, say you think it is murder.

DO NOT pretend to be concerned about pain and trauma while inflicting more.

And DO NOT try to hide under the robe of Jesus Christ while inflicting that pain and trauma.

StephenGordon

I agree with you, but you see folks like TRUE, from the Christian Right, pretend to care about woman but none of their subsequent actions prove this to be true. These folks who claim to worry about the well-being of women who have had abortions, are the same folks who advocate that women obey their husbands, that they be submissive to Patriarchy in the home at in the community.

It is not surprising that on the Christian Right even the women's organization are run by men. Remember the President of REAL Women of Canada is a Man not a woman. The Vice President who usually the mouth-piece of the organization is a woman.

It fits with the whole Cult of Masculinity that is present in the Evangelical Community; Men telling women what to do with their bodies. Women have come too far in their struggle for liberation to be set back by a group of fellas (including the one in the pointy hat in Rome). Progressive folks need to help our wives, daughter and sisters keep and protect these rights that folks like True and his friends would snatch from them.

Holden

ps. By the way TRUE can you tell us what page in the Diagnostic and Statisical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4, the above named "Post Abortion Trauma/Syndrome" is listed on. It's funny I am pretty familiar with the DSM IV but I have never seen that condition, maybe you can help me?

Hello,

Two people said some interesting things about me:

"I find it infuriating, sad and pathetic to "pretend" to be interested in "post-trauma" and caring and concern for the emotions and feelings that one may hang onto... Yet, one can waltz in and use language like " ripped from my body"."

"I agree with you, but you see folks like TRUE, from the Christian Right, pretend to care about woman but none of their subsequent actions prove this to be true"

Please, tell me where I said I do not care about women. Men and women are both created by God, and we are all His children. Give me proof that I was "pretending" and that I "don't care", or please retract your statements.

And, yes, I think that abortion is murder. But I pray for those who have had abortions to be healed and find the God who loves them and sent His Son to die for their sins.

Your membership in the movement speaks volumes TRUE. If you believe that Post Abortion Trauma Syndrome is real than you are member of the Movement. Perhaps I've made some assumptions about you True based on your post and profile, but let me test to see if I'm close anyway,

do you
- Attend a Church where women cannot be ordained a Minister of that Church.
- Does your Church encourage women to stay home and forgo their careers.
- Does your Church encourage women to submit to their husbands.
- Would you support efforts to prevent women from having control over their own reproduction including the use of the Pill, the morning after pill or if they choose abortion.

I may be wrong but I suspect I know the answers to all of those questions.

Holden

true, I am retracting nothing. If you had posted on any other of the other numerous and endless threads dealing with abortion, I would not have reacted the way in which I did.

The title says "regret". The title says post abortion "trauma".
It then goes on to talk about women (sorry not men) who have had abortions and described things like

"crying, guilt, suicidal impulses, regret/remorse, withdrawl, anger, rage, despair, desire to remember death date, unable to forgive self,nightmares, loss of appetite"

To waltz in when the topic is supposedly about someone upset/traumatized and experiencing crying and being suicidal... is our intent to use language that conjures up imagery to further traumatize?

If one is concerned and praying for those women one would think that conjuring up images like you did would not be what one wished to do. I would think one would not wish to make more tears, guilt or suicidal thoughts.

The topic was not how do you feel about abortion. That one is down the hall.

Your wording is inappropriate on this thread which was supposedly dealing with trauma and pain. It does not matter whether one is pro-choice or anti-abortion. Your words and imagery are inappropriate unless one intends further trauma.

The only other option besides being uncaring is being ignorant.

One last thing TRUE, your profile said that you attended Bob Jones University. This is the University that just dropped its ban on interracial dating, in 2000, after the President was embarrassed by a Speech that he gave there

Here is a link to that
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/03/04/bob.jones/

Up until the mid 1970's Bob Jones would not admit blacks.

Bob Jones also does not allow women into their Ministerial programs. Here read about Bob Jones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_University

Perhaps some of these facts helped me to form an opinion of your beliefs.

Holden

Wow Holden, for someone who was so concerned in blacks being allowed into BJU, you certainly had no problem in pre-judging everything about True.

StephenGordon, this is my first day on the site, so I did not know about other forums for abortion. I saw that people were discussing it, so I gave my input. As for using the word "ripped", I think it can accurately describe what an abortion is. You seem to take particular offense to what I say, yet others here have stated that Post-Abortion Trauma does not even exist, and you have said nothing to them.

Holden:
- "Attend a Church where women cannot be ordained a Minister of that Church" No. In fact, one of the ministers at my church is a woman.
- "Does your Church encourage women to stay home and forgo their careers." That's ridiculous. My wife does stay home while I work (though she does help out at our store), but our church never even suggested that.
- "Does your Church encourage women to submit to their husbands." What, like women are slaves or something? I don't even know where these insane stereotypes are coming from!
- "Would you support efforts to prevent women from having control over their own reproduction including the use of the Pill, the morning after pill or if they choose abortion." I believe that sex should be within marriage- it is a sin otherwise. With sex inside of marriage, a pregnancy is rarely, if ever, unwanted. However, since the Pill does not terminate life (as far as I know), I believe it can be used. However, I am also against it, because it encourages sex outside of marriage. I am also opposed to killing an unborn child; or what is known as abortion.

So, how accurate were you?