Hi Sandel:

God didn't make you to hate you, right?

MadMonk, I couldn't have said it better!
I can't give you any deeply philosophical, religious answer, but I do think that if there is a God, he would accept you!

i echo madmonk...
you're okay, cause god don't make no junk.

I think that although I don't know the church's position that you are just fine. You are being true to yourself just like anyone else. He loves you like everyone else.

ts probably tough being transsexual, and as a church is a part of the bigger society, you will probably find people in any church who will be uncomfortable with you because you are different from the normal 'male' and 'female'. lots of people don't know how to react to 'different'.
but noone in my church would ever say you are a sinner or that you need to repent to be saved or whatever. i think you are beautiful and blessed just the way you are.

Thank You all for Your words of support, But This Is where Im Confused, as I was raised in the United church and when I was very young and just starting To feel that something was wrong with who I was, My parents took the Issue to the Minister of the Church and hir Comment to them was such things are Not discused here, witch only led to the confussion as they where led to believe by that, that it was immorale and that I could be fixed, thru out Life I was always led to believe that there was some thing wrong with me and as hard as I tried to live life according to what the world and the Church saw as Normal !!!!! I found that I was in a constant state of torment. It was not till I fianlly stood My ground and said this can't be wrong if it feels natural and right. I left the church so as to not put others in award situations and so as to make it a commfortable place for them to go and search out guidance and support thur the love and fellow ship of the Church Body that they sot, all the while I was left woundering where Do I fit in !

yeah, like i said, you are different from the norm, so you wlil undoubtedly find some people in any church who are uncomfortable with you and your situation and just don't know what to say.

and its not hard for me to believe that you got a minister who wasn't supportive... i know of a uc ministers who are not at all comfortable with same sex marriage, either.

The Problem Is that I was always raised that You bring Your problems before God, If You Believe In God, or even If You don't, But what I found in sted was that the Church only confussed things more and set in motion life changing events there were not for the good, It has been my experiance that I was always welcome but My true self was to be let out side the door. So I guess that means that as long as I present My self in the mold of conformity that I can worship In Gods house. Are they any passages in the Bible that You are aware of that touch on the subject of Transexuals? I would like to know!!!!

geez, not that i know of. theres one about eunuchs, but i'm not sure about transesuals.. just ask that ez squirrel thingy though.

I think if it was a minister today, the reaction would be quite different.

I've been involved with PFLAG Canada, and meeting the trans community there really opened my eyes to the hurt that the Church has inflicted, especially when science tells us that trans people are authentically one gender on the inside, and quite another physically.

Be fully who you are, and not who other try to make you, and I suspect you will honour God.

amen to that!!!

thank You for Your words of wisdom they mean so much, I trurly hope that Others in the church and life realize that this was not a choce but for Myself and so many others its just the way that we were born and as such we have had to deal with it and all of its joys and unforgivings, just like any one eles in life that was not born so called Normal.

i think we are all dysfunctional in some way or another. personally, i love my dysfunctions, and i hope that you will someday find peace with yours as well, sandel!!!

peace to you, my friend!!

The United Church has recognized that one's sexuality (orientation) in and of itself is not an issue. God has created each of us with a unique being and there are many sexual orientations. Not everyone,a nd I am including ministers, are comfortable or knoweldgeable to deal with questions that you and your family had. So his or her answer "such subjects are not discussed here" probably came out of his or her personal discomfort zone - that may happen today too. Such a response does no tmean that the person speaks for the denomination.

Of course there is a place for you in the church and and what is beyond this plane of living.

Just a philosphical question here....

If god don't make no junk...why do we have an appendix?

LOL!!

well, medically speaking, the appendix is thought to at one time in our early days on the planet an organ instrumental in digesting bone fragments. as humans evolved, however, they didn't consume animal bones, and therefore the appendix, no longer needed, simply whithered into the small and useless intestinal appendage that we see today.

or something like that.

Close..it was cellulose when we ate more plant material....we started to lose the function as we ate more meat during our evolution.

However..the mere presence of this obsolete piece of tissue does provoke some thought in this arena.

*slaps forehead* cellulose!! i can't believe i forgot the cellulose!!!

and yes, it does bring up an interesting point... my thoughts is that is another step in human evolution.

I think the book has an appendix yes ;)

Richard Dawkins has some excellent books on this topic. Very well written and very thought provoking..

what, the appendix?? somebody wrote a bunch of books about the appendix??

LOL!!!

sandel,
I'm sorry you had that kind of experience with the church. I can't think of any specific scriptural verses dealing with transsexual/genderism.
Galatians 3:28 does spring to mind though. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.
To me this says no matter what one's gender or gender identity (along with race and status) we are one in Christ

Thanks Mostlymike

I went and checked that and I do Thank any and all advise as to what the Bibles views are on this subject or any thing that it related to this topic !

@mostlymike:

I'm curious what you (and everyone else) thinks of Galatians in general, though this might be best for another thread...

Galatians ch.3 says that Jesus freed us from the prison of the Law, and that the Law was needed because of transgressions, until Jesus came.

Any so what does Galatians 3:25 really mean:

"25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." (NIV)

Looking forward to thoughts on this!

I guess Luther would say that the purpose of the Law is to point out how utterly incapable we are of keeping it, to show us how much in need of grace we are. I think 3.25 speaks of freedom from the discipline of the law through faith, and living under grace. I think this section of Galatians echos Romans 10.4
Peace
MM

Sandel:

You have asked for Bible scripture on transexuality. The Bible does not specifically address by its name but by implication. Look up the following scriputure which gives a general sanction against homosexuality and other "perversions" as described thus in the Bible:

Leviticus 18:22
Romans 1:26-27
Leviticus 20:13
1 Corinthians 6:9-11

If you want to research this for yourself, go to www.biblegateway.com where you can do a words and phrases search as well as a scripture search. www.blueletterbible.com is also an excellent Bible research tool.

From God's perspective, transexual conduct is a sin. Support for that proposition is found in the above scriptures.

I find it most interesting that you are seeking to God's view on your lifestyle. Why are you even asking the question?

Sandel:

I forgot to address your other questions.

Do you have a place in heaven? Jesus said in the New Testament that He was the only way to heaven. According to the Bible, one can enter heaven if they are born again which means to admit that you are a sinner in need of a Saviour, repent of your sins and ask Jesus into your heart.

Do you have a place in a church? You are a sinner like everyone else and accordingly, should be in a church in order to receive the saving grace and forgiveness of Jesus (that is the evangelical position). Most protestant churches like Anglican and United, do not hold to the whole counsel of God and don't make an issue of sin. If you don't want to deal with your conduct, then you should attend a non-evangelical church. If you want to be done with this lifestyle, then you should find an evangelical Bible-based church that believes in the doctrine of sin, repentance and salvation.

For what its worth, God loves you but detests sin of any type, yours included. He loves you but will not abide your sin. If you don't repent of it, God will leave you be. But, and cccording to a strict reading of the Bible, you will not, in your current condition, go to heaven.

Sandel,

Just noted where your from - I would recommend you talk to Rainbow Ministry (I sit on the BOard) but there are support groups for glbtt where wonderful discussions and spiritual journey's take place within the Confererence. Might be a good place to start and the Ministry knows which United Church's are friendly and supportive.

PEACE

Leslie,

Thank-you for posting your comments as respectfully as you did. I think it was very helpful to point out the differences between the church experiences that can be expected. That is one of the purposes of this site.

Let us all meet the seekers who come here, let them see our "truths", and then trust the spirit to guide them.

Peace, all.

well Leslie,

Being that I guess that You have not taken the time to get Your facts stait, let me first say that I have reserched the passages

IE.Romans 1:26 and 27, at first glance, appears to condemn gay and lesbian activity. Paul criticizes sexual activity which is against a person's nature or disposition. But in Greek society of the time, homosexuality and bisexuality was regarded as a natural activity for some people. Thus Paul might have been criticizing heterosexuals who were engaged in homosexual activities against their nature. He might not be referring to homosexuals or bisexuals at all.

The verses preceding 26 might indicate that he was referring to sexual acts associated with idol worship. The verse is too vague to be interpreted as a blanket prohibition of all same-sex activities.

Leviticus 20:13NIV: (New International Version) "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

I Corinithians 6:9-1
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders [10] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

That being said, let me state that Yes Im a PreOp M/F Transexual, I am married to a wonderful woman and I have raised my children, to be good and produtive citizens, that also believe in the Lord christ to be thier savor. so lets break this down, 1.I feel more like a woman than I do a male, so there for I dress as such!
2. traditionaly men wear pants woman wear dresses, (What do You wear?)
3. If You Said pants dose that make You different and a sinner?
4. I don't Lie down with men, so I guess Leviticus 20:13 is Out!
5. even if I did the Bible says that no one sin is greater than thenext,and that we should not judge!

all that being said where dose that leave You? I will let my lord God be the judge as its not for me to preach to You But To pray that you are Not judged as closed mindadly when its Your turn, as You have chossen to judge me with out having all Your facts strait. Its no wonder that people that, are out side of the norm feel that they are cast aside By those that figure they have the right to judge!

have a great day

Leslie,

Nice of you to speak on behalf of the Anglican and United Churches - but let me advise you not to on the future - of course we believe in Sin and the Counsel of God so whoever told you we didn't go their facts wrong. We just aren't obsessed about it like the Evangelicals - we prefer to win hearts to Christ through living the Word in and out of season rather than guilting people through our doors.

Peace
Scott

Thank You Vicar007,

This is the Type of a responce that I would expect from a Christan, after all its not a lifestyle and its not a choice If I had be born with no arms, would I still be a sinner that Leslie has made me out to be?

Not To say that I am with out sin as we are all sinners and I know that, if not God would not have had to send his only Son to die for our sins... and for that Im ever greatfull, what a gift !!!!

I think "Brie" in Transamerica said it best when she said "my body may be a work in progress, but there is nothing wrong with my soul."

Blah,
Amen To that

It was also interesting in that movie when the mother said: We love you. We just don't respect you.

I respect you, Sandel, and thank you for being you.

It takes a lot of courage for anyone to be themselves but especially for our brothers and sisters who are faced to be different on the surface level.

Be fully who you are.

It's been well said already, but the official position of the denomination* is that sexual orientation is irrelevant.

That being said, we are not a denomination that forces uniformity, and so your experience may vary. The organisations listed here are a good place to start in finding an accepting congregation. Or, just drop in on a Sunday, and you can probably get a sense of the place pretty quickly. You might prefer to borrow some "men" clothes for that experiment, however. Or bring a friend for support, should you be unfortunate enough to run into some closed minds.

Men clothes. I doubt many would argue that Scottish warriors weren't "men", and they wore skirts! ;)

* footnote again - I am not officially connected to this site in any way

Sandel,
Close your eyes ,see yourself and feel yourself. You will know what is sin as God has put it on our souls to know. Be honest with yourself and you will know. God loves all of us and will show us the way, but we do have to ask Him.
God bless you

But don't assume that being a trans-sexual person is a sin, because you are a creation of God.

The true sin, I would think, is to see another creation of God as being "other" and "sinful" rather than "created" and "loved", as you are Sandel.

It would be a sin, I think, to let others make you feel that you are an abomination; and it would be a sin if you felt that way.

Be at peace.

Mad Monk

I would just Like To say Thank You To all that have posted replies, Both the good and the Indiferant, It gives me a great deal of hope for the world that we live in and I must say that I am proud to say that Im a Christian and so happy that there times are changing and some day soon all people will be able to feel free to worship in the house of our Lord God , No matter who they may be , or what there Life story is !

Just a little story that I figured was Fitting hope that You all enjoy it and can maybe relate.

Now this is the Living Bible:

His name is Bill. He has wild hair, wears a T-shirt with holes in it, jeans, and no shoes. This was literally his wardrobe for his entire four years of college.

He is brilliant. Kind of profound and very, very bright. He became a Christian while attending college.

Across the street from the campus is a well-dressed, very conservative church. They want to develop a ministry to the students but are not sure how to go about it.

One day Bill decides to go there. He walks in with no shoes, jeans, his T-shirt, and wild hair. The service has already started and so Bill starts down the aisle looking for a seat.

The church is completely packed and he can't find a seat. By now, people are really looking a bit uncomfortable, but no one says anything.

Bill gets closer and closer and closer to the pulpit, and when he realizes there are no seats, he just squats down right on the carpet.

By now the people are really uptight, and the tension in the air is thick.

About this time, the minister realizes that from way at the back of the church, a deacon is slowly making his way toward Bill.

Now the deacon is in his eighties, has silver-gray hair, and a three-piece suit. A godly man, very elegant, very dignified, very courtly. He walks with a cane and, as he starts walking toward this boy, everyone is saying to themselves that you can't blame him for what he's going to do.

How can you expect a man of his age and of his background to understand some college kid on the floor?

It takes a long time for the man to reach the boy.

The church is utterly silent except for the clicking of the man's cane. All eyes are focused on him. You can't even hear anyone breathing. The minister can't even preach the sermon until the deacon does what he has to do.

And now they see this elderly man drop his cane on the floor. With great difficulty, he lowers himself and sits down next to Bill and worships with him so he won't be alone.

Everyone chokes up with emotion.

When the minister gains control, he says,"What I'm about to preach, you will never remember. What you have just seen, you will never forget."

"Be careful how you live. You may be the only Bible that many people will ever read!"

God Bless,

@sandel:

I appreciate your story; I think it touches on an issue that faces all congregations.

Churches were always full, regardless of the denomination. My guess it's not because of the denomination, but because of the social state 50 years ago -- it was assumed everyone went to church. Congregations were fairly homogeneous.

Now congregations now have to face "new" people (gasp!) coming to services, perhaps for the first time in years. This makes some people uncomfortable.

In many protestant, non-evangelical congregations, there is an over-riding opinion that we *can't* be evangelical, and pushing our religion on other people. (It might be considered 'rude'.)

Evangelism is not a four-letter word. It's just something most of us in mainstream protestant congregations are not used it.

The desire to change the body to the other sex is, in my opinion, a serious mental illness and our society currently does little to help such people. Our culture has assumed that there are only two legitimate possibilities in terms of biological sex, i.e., one is supposed to be male or female, period. If a person suffers from being "out of sync" with their body/feelings, we think that the solution is very serious surgical intervention and treatment with powerful drugs. Once again, "science" and "medicine" leap in to solve all of our problems. Gee, thanks.

Nature produces a small number of people who are biologically neither fully male nor fully female. The medical profession has decided for too long that it knows best and it slices and dices children to conform to their notion of A or B. Adults who suffer the mental disorder of gender confusion get pretty much the same treatment.

I look forward to a day when our culture is a lot less rigid about these things and we learn to accept a bit of a continuum rather than these distinct polarities.

Dear Flitcraft,

Thank You for Your Opinion, Although I suggest that If You Are Going to make a judgement call in the future that You do a little more research on the topic befor You address said topic and Make Ur self look less inteligent than Im sure that You are.

Sandel

sandel, if you have any comments on my statements other to imply that I have not researched this, I would be happy to listen. FYI, my opinion on this condition is the same as the studied and learned opinion of the head of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins. I have done my research and I gave my honest and sincere opinion.

A binary system of gender is problematic for many people. I do not simply mean those with gender identity issues. There is a spectrum from very "male" to very "female". There are many people who fit along this spectrum where others do not expect them to. Our propensity to accept that depends on whetehr the person in question fits other expectations. A straight mother of three can wear flannel without being accused of crossing a gender line. A lesbian cannot, in most cases. A straight man can cook for his family and cry at sappy movies, a gay man cannot without crossing a gender divide.
I picked the name Stephen Gordon, from The Well of Loneliness, written by Radclyffe Hall.
Visually, I blurr people's gender assumptions. You know what they say about assuming? ;) Yet, in other ways, I am exectly what they assume. It is their problem and not mine.
I am grateful that I grew into myself. I do not need to fit in anyone's mold. God created me, the way I am, perfectly flawed, just like everyone else.

"perfectly flawed" is a beautiful phrase and quite profound. I thank you for it and I hope you don't mind too much if I steal it.

Thank You StephenGorden/ Flitcraft

I could not have said It better, and To Flicraft I guess that every one has a different View of life and for You to basis Yours on the documentation, Of one person and ignore what has been said and documented by so many others, to the point of saying,"The desire to change the body to the other sex is, in my opinion, a serious mental illness" Is in My opinion just a tad narrow minded and I was refearing to You reading More than just one or two documents befor reaching a opinion such as You did,

Hi there. I am sorry that you happened upon a minister who was either incompetent, inexperienced or narrow-minded (or possibly all of the above). Fat lot of help he was.

The way I look at it, sexuality is a continuum, with a lot of variety and combinations along the way. It's not a contest, is it God? That would be something like saying blue flowers are good and purple ones are not.

Like the other folks said, God didn't make no junk. But life can be very "challenging", as they say. read "shitty"

Sounds like you've worked hard at being a good parent and citizen and I commend you for accomplishing all you have, despite the hassles along the way.

Take care.

Flitcraft:

You stated that "The desire to change the body to the other sex is, in my opinion, a serious mental illness ..."

In MY opinion, your opinion is possibly incorrect AND definitely judgmental. Citing the head of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins may give this the stamp of authority, but I would take some of the diagnoses of the psychological/psychiatric profession with a grain of salt. The American Psychological Association now recognizes something called "caffeine-induced sleep disorder." Duh. You overuse caffeine, you can't sleep.

Browse through the gazillions of disorders listed in the APA's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and you get the impression that some of them are designed to provide the profession with more codes that they can bill for. Wonder how much they charge to treat "caffeine-induced sleep disorder." Probably about the same as for real mental disorders, like schizophrenia.

MY opinion on the subject is that there is a spectrum of sexual identities and orientations. It's not either/or, with the occasional aberration. And we don't choose where we end up on that spectrum. If there is any mental disorder associated with transsexualism, it's probably the anxiety that usually goes with it, which is partly a response to society's treatment of such individuals.