There is a simple answer to this my friend:

(Exodus 21:22-25) 22 "And in case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. 23 But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 branding for branding, wound for wound, blow for blow.

Now think, if a fetus was killed by accident, how much more so a serious crime that is killed on purpose?

Extremely well said Bror. I believe God abhors abortion.

Your arrogance knows no bounds!! Who are you to presume to speak for God? You may well be the one being judged severely at the end. You don't seem capable of stating something as YOUR opinion. Do you think it adds credence to your narrowminded thoughts to claim them as 'truth', 'fact' or "God's", because it only makes you look foolish to anyone with any reasonable amount of intellect. Please go spew your garbage on some street corner somewhere so we don't have to listen to it.

To clarify, I was referring to Prazgod in my previous post.

Praz didn't speak for God though. He simply stated what God has said in his Word, why are you reviling him?

I'm curious why you have posted three different abortion posts???? Is there something that you have done that you are seeking resolution or are you intent on inflicting guilt upon others??

OldFeller. Sorry bro. This site has been deemed as a place for open minded discussion. UCC's words, not mine. If you are entitled to your opinion, so is any one else who posts on this site. So please stop trying to be mister censorship. To use the word that seems to be a favorite on this site, you seem to be a tad "judgemental"
Much love and God Bless.

PrazGod

Was simply stating that God hates abortion and rightly so because abortion cause damage to the mothers well being, not to mention the child and society , IF nothing good comes out of abortion then IT MUST not be of God, its pretty simple it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the damage.

Well again, as I stated in another thread regarding Homosexuality. Nature teaches us on certain things--and this is one of those things again. Sex was PRIMARILY designed to create life (not jsut for pleasure as many want to believe), so if having sex creates life, then destroying it kills it, we are fighting against natural workings of our wonderfully made bodies.

Once again, the biblical literalists want a quick easy answer. "God hates abortion so it's wrong". If you want a quick easy answer, ask the easy answer squirrel. if you want informed, rational, non-judgemental discussion, come to the UCC.

Here is the best way I have heard the abortion debate summed up:

First, you have the manner of conception of the child: consentual sex between a loving married couple versus rape of a 12-year-old by her father (don't squirm, you brought this up) Most rational people would feel that in the first instance, abortion probably isn't the way to go, while in the second instance it might be more warranted.

The second consideration is the health of the pregnancy: baby and mother both in perfect health versus an ectopic pregnancy where both mother and baby will die if the baby is brought to term. again, first instance is hard to justify, second is more reasonable.

So it's a large and difficult continuum, not an easy answer.

Yep... an open place for discussion.

Discussion.

What a cool word.

from die.net:

"discussion
n 1: an extended communication (often interactive) dealing with
some particular topic; "the book contains an excellent
discussion of modal logic"; "his treatment of the race
question is badly biased" [syn: treatment, discourse]
2: an exchange of views on some topic; "we had a good
discussion"; "we had a word or two about it" [syn: give-and-take,
word]"

Kind of hard to have "an exchange of views" or "an extended communication" when someone is absolutely sure that they have the right of it. It kind of comes down to:

Person A: This is what I think.
Person B: This is what I know.
Person A: Tell me more.
Person B: Yadda, yadda.
Person A: Well, here's where I'm coming from...
Person B: You're wrong.
Person A: Well, another way to look at it is...
Person B: You're wrong.
Person A: My thoughts on the matter are..
Person B: You're wrong, and, by the way, you're a *place choice of epithet here* for thinking the way you do.

Great. So my views are wrong. That's *really* going to help me accept that your point of view is right. MmmHmm. Oh yeah.

That's what I feel like I'm hearing in a lot of these threads: "If you don't believe my interpretation of scripture then you're wrong. Period."

Not particularly conducive to an open discussion.

Talk with me. Help me to understand why you believe that particular scripture speaks to my life in the here and now. Why is it that that specific word is really God talking to ribott? Help me to understand what it says to you... and be open to hearing why it does - or doesn't say the same thing to me.

Just dumping scripture on me - especially if I believe that scripture is a construct of humankind, through which God *can* speak - isn't going to do anything except make me put you on ignore.

And I don't want to ignore anyone.

'You are mistaken. The question wasn't if situation A could turn to situation B, would God hate YOU. It was rather, "what does God think about abortion (killing fetus)?" The answer was simple.

Strangely I posted my post before you did regarding A and Bs LOL--weird.

If you think anyone is "dumping scripture" on you I think its just a poit of view. Its better to cite what God says on a matter than what your own "interpretations" say.

It seems to me that most posts on this website, even though they are about different topics, all come back to the same problem i.e. taking the Bible literally or not. The literalists quote scripture as words straight from God's mouth and hence the answers to all these questions are easy, black and white. Those who don't believe the Bible literally see it as a collection of inspired writings that hold many truths but that the ultimate direction in our lives is provided by Jesus (I'm sure some others here can say this better than I). This approach makes answers to today's problems more difficult and not so black and white.
I think we need to accept that these are the two general positions of people on this site and quit trying to persuade or condemn the opposite opinion.

"Those who don't believe the Bible literally see it as a collection of inspired writings that hold many truths but that the ultimate direction in our lives is provided by Jesus"

But there is one thing you forget. Jesus took them literally. :)

Second, the history in the Bible (namely the "OT") has much literaly information and principle which is confirmed by archeology.

A oldfeller said, how dare you quote the Word of God, that's garbage, and arrogant. Totally disgusting and it has no place here in the United Church.

For once oldfeller, I agree with you, the Word of God seems not to have a place here in the United Church.

I wonder what the evangelical sites are like?

Is it just a bunch of people agreeing with each other? Or do the argue like this all the time?

Remember MadMonk. "Site for open minded conversation". Again, UCC's words not mine.

I'm not evangelical, I'm a Roman Catholic, overall, I'm Christian.

lol@JesusFreak. You and ABC, we (I am assuming) defintely are different faiths since I am not Roman Catholic and whatever else, but I can really share your reasoning on certain topics. It is clearer reasoning than some of those on here. Its too bad its just a few though.

Bror. My wife and I attend a Brethren Church (very concervative theology) which we love. Yes. It seems that when we Christians speak the truth, some people just don't like to listen. The truth hurts. But the truth can also heal.

"...cite what God says on a matter..."

BroR, you mean 'cite scripture', right?

We're definitely coming from two different places on what that means. I can 'cite scripture', and then discuss its meanings - both for the people of the day (as best as we can understand it) and for me, in the here and now. I can 'cite scripture' believing that it is writing done by human beings, steeped in human cultures, trying to understand their relationship with God... and still containing and illuminating Divine Word. I can 'cite scripture' and, with prayer and exploration, invite the Holy Spirit to speak to me through its words.

Heavens above, we need that guidance desperately when reading scripture... all of us, no matter what strand of Christian faith we come from. Especially, from my perspective, knowing that, for most of us, reading Greek and Hebrew... especially ancient Greek and Hebrew... is out of our skill set. We have to rely on what translators have done. (And, no matter how much I enjoy my own mother tongue, it is impossible to do a one-to-one translation and get exactly what the writer wanted to put down. "traduttoe, traditore"... the translator is a traitor, not of their own accord, but of the reality that language changes our mind-maps and vice-versa.)

But, then again, *anyone* who cites scripture is going interpret it, simply by the fact that all human beings read through the lenses of their own life-experiences. We may interpret strictly or widely... but we all interpret.

Bror, I'm curious, how do we differ? I haven't seen all your posts but from what I have seen, we are similar if not exact.

To ImaJesusFreak; here is a partial quote of yours: "Yes. It seems that when we Christians speak the truth, some people just don't like to listen. The truth hurts. But the truth can also heal."
You don't seem to be getting the message that it is your use of the word "truth" that offends so many of us. It presumes that you have all the answers and that because you believe them to be so then that makes them truth. No one knows the absolute truth and you won't until your dying day. What if it turns out that you are wrong? My mother, a devout Christian, once said "it doesn't matter if there is a Heaven or Hell or whether I am right about God because believing in God has made all the difference in the way I live my life". She was willing to admit that maybe she didn't have all the answers but that in the big picture it is how we live that matters. Some people grab onto religion as 'fire insurance', not as a way to live their lives.

ABC quote: "A oldfeller said, how dare you quote the Word of God, that's garbage, and arrogant. Totally disgusting and it has no place here in the United Church.

For once oldfeller, I agree with you, the Word of God seems not to have a place here in the United Church."

You need to reread my first post. You are putting words in my mouth since I didn't say what you have supposedly quoted me as saying. When someone says this is God's opinion are they not speaking for God? No where in my post does it say that the Word of God has no place in the United Church; that's your interpretation. Obviously if you can't read my post and quote me more accurately than that, how can anyone take you seriously when you supposedly quote the Bible and state it as the truth?

OldFeller. So when Jesus said "I tell you the truth" was he lying? According to your thinking he was. The problem exists when we all have our own truths. Were do they come from? Who gave them to us? If it from a purely human effort then at some point there was no truth untill someone ( a human) made one up. But, when that truth comes from God, we can be sure that it is the absolute truth. By you saying that no one knows the absolute truth, is that not a truth claim in its self? And according to you, no one has exclusive rights to the truth. I am not trying to hostile here, please do not take it as such. I appreciate the way you responded to my post. As a gentleman. Thank you.
By the way. Mr.Burns rocks.

This is what the LORD says"” he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. Isaiah 44:2

God made us. Who are we to slaughter unborn children in the womb?

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5

God knows us even before we are created. The second the egg is fertilized you have a human being (at the very earliest stage of course).

Abortion is murder. I can't even imagine that anyone could be for it.

ImaJesusFreak quote: So when Jesus said "I tell you the truth" was he lying?

When I said that none of us knows what is absolutely the truth, firstly I was not including Jesus in that since he is the son of God and not exactly your average human being and secondly I was trying to say that we should avoid stating our beliefs as the truth. We may believe them to be the truth but not everyone does, so by stating them as the absolute truth we automatically put down others beliefs and thereby cut off any chance for constructive discussion. I can accept and appreciate that you believe the Bible word for word and I will not put you or your church down for that as long as you give me the same respect. You don't have to believe what I do, nor I you; but lets have reasonable, non-blaming discussions as to why we believe what we do. Just quoting the Bible doesn't cut it for me, sorry.

Maximus; I don't know where I stand on abortion because a wise person once said something to the affect of "until I'm in that position it would be foolish for me to presume to have the answer".
It's easy for you and me as males to sit back and pass judgement but I wonder if we were female and had to carry the seed from a rapist or abusive parent, if we would have a different opinion? If your wife was going to die giving birth would that change anything for you?
There are lots of scenarios that are all slightly different so does one answer deal with all of them? I don't know but I have trouble with black and white answers in this complex world. I just pray that I am never faced with any of the above decisions because it appears from many of the posts here that a whole lot of guilt would be dumped on a person who chose to abort, at a time when they would be most vulnerable and in need of much love.

Even if the child is a product of rape, it's not the childs fault. The child shouldn't be put to death over it. I can see not wanting the child, but give it up for adoption. There are so many potentially great parents who are on a long waiting list for a baby.

geez, theres like THREE abortion threads... whats up with that?!?!?

God doesn't mind....but god does mind about the people that put the "mental" in fundamental.

hi snootles - yeah - noticing a trend in a lot of threads - some people appear to have come here to beat a drum and not to actually have a discussion... time for me to move on...

ABC, Imafreak, BoR etc

Looks like you all found some kindred spirits in each other

Maybe you should find a website where you can all have nice black and white conversations without us heathens getting in your way.

appreciate it!

PrazGod, you too of course.

you're scaring people away!

not me, i'll be here for quite awhile, i'm afraid!!

Bilandre. If I am not mistaken, this is a site for open minded discussion. It has been suggested that myself (JesusFreak), ABC, Bror, PrazGod and others that think as we do, that we find other sites in which to hold our conversations, to stop and "let the grownups talk" etc.. Not once have we insulted you or others who think like you (and there are many) yet we Christians continue to encounter hostility and become the butt of jokes. While I encourage open minded conversation, I expect the same respect form others as I give. By you saying that we should find an other site because of what we think and have our discussions, is that not being close minded? You want to be heared, right? That's all we want as well. PrazGod, Bror, ABC ,myself and others, as far as I can tell have onlt spoke in love. Just because we have different views as you and the others, does not make us close minded or judgemental. Unfortunatly, no matter what we say or think, there will always be some(such a the dude with the screen name God) that will continue to make a mockery of my faith. This is certainly distressful since I have never once made a mockery of, or have been insulting to anyone on this site. Yet myself and others continue to be attacked for what we believe. Is that not being "judgemental"?
Much love and God Bless.

I am the Lord. I change not.
Malachi 3:6

Bilandre. I know that when you were typing out my screen name you just forgot the word Jesus. I totaly understand. Happens to me ALL the time.

LOL!!

man, we need some smileys here, people!!! that was classic, imajesusfreak!!

btw, can i just call you ijf or something?? thats a pretty long handle you got there. you can just call me sigh.

Sigh. No problem. That is quite an interesting name you have as well. How did you come up with that one. An interesting story I bet. God Bless

awww, thank you!!!
its actually from a minor character in the star wars saga named 'sy snootles'... she is that odd looking singer at jabba the hutts palace in 'return of the jedi'. she is just so odd looking, but darn proud of herself, and i think all women could learn a thing or two from her!!

i think we should have a section for just 'get to know the other posters' type stuff, where silly questions like 'why did you choose your screen name?' could go... you know, for when you have a burning desire to find out what everyones favorite book is or something!!!

anyways, i hope you also saw my reply to your post on your group home kids on another thread... honestly, those kids are so blessed to have you as their role model!!! if more people were as respectful as you are, what a different world this would be, eh???

Star Wars. COOL. Thank you for your kind reply Sigh. God has blessed me and my wife with 6 fantastic children. We prayed for 6 years for children and God answered that prayer 6 times over and we are so greatful. These children have gone through such a horrible time in there lives and it is such a joy to be able to be a part of their lives. We love each one as our own. We are also adopting a child as well.
A "get to know you" thread is a great idea.
I am so glad Sigh that even though we have a difference of opinion on some issues, that we can discuss them with respect towards each other and not resort to name calling or hostile attitudes. What would we be teaching our children if all anybody did was show disrespectful attitudes. Paul said in 1 Corinthians that the greatest of faith, hope and love... is love. Christian or non-Christian, if we all keep that in mind, you are right, the world would be a better place.
thank you for your kind words Sigh, they are refreshing.

LOL!!

same here, ijf!! we waited and prayed for five years for our first child, and now we have 3 biological kids, and have fostered 11 others!!!

there is no doubt that the lord works in mysterious ways, eh???

Sigh. He certainly does. Sometimes quite unexpectidly but alway welcome.

Doesn't really matter what god thinks about abortion....it matters what the law of the land says.

Thank god!

Atheisto -

"...Thank god."

ROTFL!

You people think abortion is all bad but it's not. There are positives to being able to abort.
First of all, if the mother is pregnant because she was raped, she deserves the right to not have the baby if she wants. It wan't her fault and she might not be ready for it. She may feel bad but it's her desision. Second, If the people who were having sex were using protection and they got a defective condom or something then they should be able to abort if they want. They weren't expecting it and were taking every precaution to stop it. Thirdly, what if the parent(s) aren't economically ready for a baby. Babies need time and resources and the parents may end up abandoning it which is even worse because it will have reprecussions on the kid (like making him/her into a criminal or gang member).
Finally, my favourate reason for why abortion is good, there are doctors that are able to use aborted fetuses to cure many diseases. Fetuses are rich in stem cells, cells that have not been assigned a role yet (eg. blood cell, bone cell, muscle cell etc.) and These stem cells will assign themselves the role of the cell they are next to so if someone's spinal cord was cut and they are paralized from the neck down, some stem cells can regenerate that spinal cord so the person can walk and do again. This means helping out a person that actually has a good chance to benefit society. You see, abortion isn't so bad.

well, i used to work as a gynecology nurse, as well as a neurology/ neurosurg nurse, and so i've heard the whole 'stem cell' arguement before. i just read your profile, rabbit, and i want you to know that i know science!!!
i would caution you against saying that abortion is a 'good thing'. it is never a good thing. every abortion is another failure for our society, in that we have just sacrificed another life because we couldn't find another way to deal with the situation. to me, it is like saying 'war is a good thing'... war is a failure of civilization. that isn't the same thing as saying i don't believe that abortion should be accesable, far from it. but i definetly do not think that abortion is something we should be happy about.

as far as stem cells, the problem i have with that is the standard ethical one... what kind of society are we that we have to literally harvest our young to try and save the old?? that is just a frightening ethical thought, isn't it??
you can't say that an aborted fetus wouldn't be a productive member of society, either... i'm sure i won't be the only one to point out that beethoven would probably have been aborted, if his mother had the option. as a parent, the one thing that every pregnancy gives you is HOPE.

Sigh! Thank You! That was the most sensible and sensitive post on the subject of abortion that I have yet read!

Thank you so much for formulating an argument that makes sense and avoids attacking people.

The concept of every abortion being a societal failure is the best start at a rational discussion that I have seen. Would you be willing to start that as a topic?

Again, thankyou.

Cheers!
ByOurLove