Mists, you are all in a very stressful situation and we all handle stress differently. Some people handle it well by finding healthy outlets for it, some people try to bottle their emotions and some lash out at others. From over here, it sounds like the stress of having two battles with cancer at the same time is really getting to them. Finding out that their child is battling depression is an additional stressor. Do they understand that clutter is quite normal for people who are depressed? I am wondering if they are getting support from friends, other family members or communities that they belong to? Would counselling be something they would consider?

The decision about Rachel continuing to stay up north is one for you, Jim and your parents to make. While his parents can offer their opinions, you are the ones who get to decide where she stays. I know that you will consider your options carefully and make the one that is best for you. I also know that you must all be missing each other terribly and that the day you are reunited will be a joyous one indeed.

Mists, I hope you know that you a beautiful and strong human being - and that Rachel is lucky to have you for a mother!

All I can think of to do at the moment is to send you, Jim and Rachel some long hugs.  What a crappy life stage you have to get through right now.  It is so hard to make decisions when your world is turned upside down and to have in-laws presenting changes out of the blue must be confusing.  You are a wonderful woman, a super wife, a special mother, and having other people implying otherwise isn't in the least helpful.  It sounds like you could really use some support , have you seen a Social Worker at the hospital?  When my family were struggling with health related things it was a Social Worker who was able to listen, share valuable words and point us to the options for easing the stress. 

mists, this is one of those things that even time may not heal. 

although i am not in your exact situation, i had a very similar thing happen to me a few years ago, and since you are venting, we might as well open up a bitch session too...

when my husband was in afghanistan, i had a minor MS relapse.  before he left, my husband had asked his mom to be the one to come and assist me if i relapsed, and she had agreed. 

my relapse was a minor one, and as it turned out, my in laws were there when my husbands 2 week break was to start.  as i was feeling much better, i asked my inlaws to stay for a few days of his break, so that they could visit with their son, and i thought that if they were willing, they could be in charge for 2 days while my husband and i went to a b and b in the country.  they agreed, so i set it up.

THE VERY DAY that my husband was to return from kandahar, my mother in law opened up on me about every single slight since i have known her... we have been married for over 20 years.  she also told me what a selfish person i am, how i was not the person that she would have chosen for her son.  she also said that my whole family were arrogant and self serving.   a few times i tried to break in with 'that was 20 years ago, why haven't you said anything until now?' and was met with, i kid you not, 'don't try and make this my fault.  this is all your fault.'

i managed to keep my cool (i remember vividly an incident from my teen years where my father, who was the coach of my softball team, was berated for 20 minutes by the parent of another player on the team... he sat quietly for the whole thing, and after it was over he shook the other guys hand, thanked him for sharing his thoughts with him, and walked away.), and after it was all over i thanked her for sharing all that with me, told her that i would take it all into consideration, and left the room.  i was pretty sure that if i tried to discuss anything at that point, i would wind up saying something i would have to apologize for later, and i definetly wanted to keep the high ground on this.

my husband arrived that afternoon, and i was determined that he not walk into a hornets nest after 4 months in a war zone, so i never said a word to him.  like you, i vented on a few people, and left it.

a few months later, i talked to a friend of mine about it...  she had some very interesting observations.  first of all, my in laws were STRESSED out ... my husband was in a war zone, and from their point of view i could have prevented that.  and yes, if he had been killed, in their eyes it would have been directly on my head.  was that the truth?  who knows.  thankfully it didn't happen, but having a son of my own i can say that if he were in a war zone i would spend every minute of my day worrying about his safety too.

she also said that my mother in law and i are COMPLETELY different people... i am outgoing, she is a profound introvert.  she is uncomfortable in a crowd, i seek them out.  she hates meeting new people, i can strike up a conversation with the guy in front of me at the check out line. 

so the fact that she doesn't like me probably has nothing to do with something that i've done, but more with WHO I AM.  i am simply not the kind of person that she enjoys being around.

after that, i felt much better.  her and i will never be friends, and there is just nothing that will ever change that.  i can't change who i am any more than she can change who she is, nor would i expect her to.

the other person i talked to was my brother in law, as i know that he has had a few run-ins with her as well.  his comment was that the relationship HAS TO BE between my husband and his mother, not me.  i shouldn't be the one asking for their assistance, my husband must.  and any time she starts in on me again, all i need to do is just put up my hand and say 'this is something you need to discuss with your son.  there isn't anything i can do here.'  and just walk away.  so far i haven't had to do that, but just having him reframe that dynamic has made me so much more comfortable in the aftermath of all that.

i am forever thankful to my fathers influence that i remained calm through her whole 'you suck out loud' speech to me, because again, i never said anything i feel the need to apologize for.  i was gracious in the face of someone who should have been kicked out of my house. 

her and i have been together quite a few times since then, and i have had no problems at all.  i certainly have nothing to apologize for, and whether she feels guilty about insulting me and my family isn't something i care to think about.

i dont' know if any of that helps, hopefully it does. 

may the force be with you anyways.

Hugs to you mists

And WOW Your inlaws feel guilty too! They did not know their son was depressed for 2 years. Theya re worried he may die and feel caring for Rachel may be too much for him.

However-Doctor's don't usually treat family members.

You too want the best for Jim. And you are worried about him.

What does Jim want?

Would your parents bring her down for a week and stay with you again? That would help, they might even take over some of the house duties.

No your house isn't a threat to Rachel's health. Would life be easier if it was less cluttered? If so would your in-laws pay for cleaning/housekeeping 1x week for 6 weeks or something? Put their money where their concern is?

Anyhow big hugs and enjoy this time with Jim. Talk with him and walk this road together.

Sounds like your inlaws have a problem Mists. Not your fault. They said some really out of line things. Sighs' insight sounds helpful. Your husband chose you because you are different from his mother. You can take comfort in that.

Also, doctors shouldn't work on family members because they get too emotionally involved and can make rash decisions. He should only be his son's doctor if there is no alternative. I had a doctor get emotionaly involved in my case once, and she prescribed me too much of one medicine to which I am now imune.

Sighs, that's really sh***y what you mother in law said to you too. You handled it so well.

Wise words here ... hope you take the option Mists.  

mists,

You, Jim, Rachel, Jim's parents, all have one thing in common.

Right now you are all living with incredible stress.

Some folk try to lessen the load by externalising and blaming and shaming others - like Jim's mother.

Others internalise the shame and blame and take it out on themselves through depression.

However you handle it - you are all in pain and hurting. None of you have any control over cancer, and that leaves you wanting to control each other...........

None of you are mean people - you're all people who are in emotional pain brought on by a situation that was out of all your control.

Perhaps it would help you all if you could find a way to focus on the pain behind the conflict?  Interrupt your MIL's next rant with, "You're worried about Jim, aren't you?"

On a lighter note.......

The housework thingie is an old ploy. It's intention is to make you feel shame that you're not a good wife and mother.

I'm glad you haven't fallen for it!

Next time she begins that rant hand her a broom and say, "If it worries you so much, don't just stand there, do something about it."

Thank you for sharing your father's story, and your sighsnootles, it will be forever imbedded in my mind - and I hope I can draw on it if ever faced in situations such as those.  That really impacted me because my first thought and reaction is to defend myself, generally by lashing out at the person attacking me.

MistsOfSpring . . . .

MistsOfSpring - tough road and an emotional roller coaster.

I could only echo what others have said.  Jim's parents are obviously frightened and need someone to take out their frustration on, and for them easiest to blame you, the wife.

Hoping that the worst is over, and perhaps your relationship will improve.  Think Pilgrim's offered wise advice when she suggested that you respond to any future rants by saying something like, "I know you are worried about Jim too."

Maybe next step is to invite her to share her fears and concerns and hopefully then she will listen to you.

Take care....

My greatest sympathy to you Mists, you are in an incredibly stressful situation. Big hugs and many prayers.

Others have offered great advice, I have nothing to add except to emphasive how crazy that housework thing sounds. But his mother is probably stressed out of her mind too.

Great story from Sighs. Great advice from Pilgrims.

May the Lord be with you, this day and always.

Thanks.  I can't take any more in right now, though.  Jim has been in bed asleep or staring in to space since last night, and today he showed me that he has another lump in his belly.

Hugs to both of you,, and hugs sent to Rachel. Sleep well.

Hi MistsOfSprings,

Without wanting to take their side against you.  I think that letting your parents take Rachel for 4 weeks is a good idea.  I believe in the earlier thread I suggested that if they could take her longer that you let that happen.

That happens a lot more frequently in Cancer treatment than most folks are aware.  For a lot of reasons.  There is what is hoped for and then there is what is feared and somewhere in between is what is.  So, this isn't what you hoped or planned for.  It also isn't what was feared.  It is what it is.

Chemotherapy takes a beating out of healthy people with the cheeriest dispositions at best.

Jim is not at his best apparently.  So Jim needs more help and you have folk who are offering to help.  Take it.

I'm not a big fan of the inherent selfishness or the threats.  Still, I think that they are talking frankly and  that means putting all the cards on the table and figuring out the best way to play.  If Jim has not responded to treatment as was hoped then the plan needs to change.  For Rachel's sake.  For Jim's sake.  For your sake.

I suspect that this is symptomatic of their fearfulness and pain.  These words would never have been said had all of you not been standing so deeply in the shadow of the valley of death.  And, should things go as well as hoped these words will be an ugly scar on the future of your relationship.

That is a bridge which can be crossed later.

The bridge now is what is best for you, Jim and Rachel.  Please consider that what is best may not be the same as what you want.  Choosing what you want now could impact upon your getting to have the best later.  Choosing the best now can give you more of what you want.  There will be no guarantees.  Life doesn't offer any.

So, ignore the pettiness and the grumbling that is just static.  Listen to the concern.  If Jim is really not responding well to his treatment then maybe he doesn't need two weeks with Rachel so much as he needs two weeks of rest.

Again, I suspect that their fear and their pain probably multiplies what they see as problematic.  They most likely are making mountains out of molehills.  Molehills are still problems and respectfully, they are problems you do not need.  You may not have the strength to clean the house.  You have the strength to let Rachel stay longer with your parents.

That is overstating things.  As wife you would be looked upon to speak for Jim should he be unable to speak for himself unless Jim has designated that his parents are to be his advocates.  Any challenge to your mental fitness or Jim's medical fitness would not be immediate.

That said, both Jim and yourself are under a lot of stress and as both of you struggle with depression I cannot see that making things better.  You both need help.  Ideally your help wouldn't beat you up while you are being helped.  Reality sucks from time to time.

That reeks of dubious medical ethics and a comprised professional judgment.  Which is probably why doctors are directed not to treat family members.  It is also water under the bridge.  This is now.

You also don't know that they are wrong about everything.  They aren't going about some stuff the "right" way that doesn't mean that they are automatically wrong about the why..

That's a positive sign.

This is where you have to weigh between what you want and what you need.  A compromise might be two, two week stays away with a weekend visit in between.  I know two weeks away is a long time.  In the spring of 1999 I suffered from my first ever time of homesickness (I was 34 at the time and had been married for eight years and my youngest child was two).  It took me a week to disgnose the problem because I had been going to camp and to school and left home plenty of times.  This week off was the first time since my marriage that I had been away from my wife and kids rather than one or the other.  I still had a week to go.  Knowing what I was going through made it easier to cope.

You will miss your daughter.  There is no way around that.  Can your daughter make you well?  I have heard you say that part of your problem is your concern about being able to parent her to her current need level.  So, once more you need help and your parents have offered.  Take it.

I know that it doesn't sound like any of this should require either of you to be superheroes.  Still, you aren't superheroes and you are dealing with stuff that most mere humans have a very hard time dealing with.  I have had days where I couldn't manage much more than moving from couch to bathroom (and days where I couldn't manage both).  I don't know that Jim has the strength to be a dad right now.  Seems like he is using all his strength just to try and stay Jim.  It also seems like you are exerting a great deal of energy just to be you.

When help is offered take it.
 

Don't take it because someone else is bullying you.

Take it because your parents who love you, Jim and your daughter are offering it to you.

Which is fair.  What benchmarks will tell you what Jim needs? (I don't need to know because I'm in no position to verify those benchmarks--I want to know that you have a plan and you have contingenies covered).

All in all I think that fury is positive.  Boundaries were crossed and your response is, at the very least, appropriate to that.  The eventual letting go of that fury is personal boundary work for you to deal with and given the priorities facing you at present it is secondary at best.

I don't know how anger fuels you (or doesn't).  Depression is something I have no first hand experience with (I defer to Sighsnootles for that).  Shepherding is my bag.  So not knowing how anger fuels you I do know that anger is not a sustainable resource and it is toxic energy.  The sooner you can be independant of it the better.

You have a plan.  Plans can be changed by design or by accident or by necessity.  As an outside observer I hear your plan and I note that there is new necessity.  Changing to accommodate new needs will bring some disappointment.  It does not have to adversely affect your needs (which at this point are pure survival).  It may interfere with your wants.  I wish I could find a way around that for you, and others, it would probably pay more than ministry does.

May God bless you, your home and your family.

Grace and peace to you.

John

fuuuuuuuckkkk.....

i shall hold you close in my morning meditation today... you will feel me with you in a short while.

Oh mists...I'm so, so sorry. I have been in the position of having profound issues with my former in-laws and your situation brought it all to mind. Pain resulting in blame is so hard to bear and, for the sake of all concerned, sometimes the only way to respond is to hold one's peace. 

You're doing an admirable job of getting through everything that you're dealing with. It's bizarre that your husband's father has this view of depression and that he took the steps he did regarding the treatment.

I wonder how you can protect Jim from any future decisions of this kind - is there a process that authorizes you to make the decisions so that you have the legal tools to prevent that possibility? In BC, there is the Representation Agreement process that covers this kind of thing. You can find out more about that here. 

It's hard for me to understand how people feel that "honesty" is the best approach at a time when you are so vulnerable. I agree that it's a tme to stay focussed on what's good for Jim and admire your composure through it. The event in my life that rings similar stills resonates with me and I took the same approach. I can't process enough to respond at the time anyway.

Out of that, I have developed a boundary beyond which I am not willing to let people go. I agree that your in-laws are in painful circumstances and your compassion for them is beautiful. Is there is anything that you could prepare to do in order to protect yourself, Jim and/or your daughter should there be any future incidents?

My heart goes out to all of you, mists. ...holding you in the light...

Thanks again.  After I found out about the lump, I called his dad to find out if he knew about it.  He did...and he told me that the doctor had said it was nothing to worry about because it was just scar tissue from his surgery.  Somehow no one thought to tell JIM not to worry about it.  When I told Jim, his mood changed dramatically.  He was still exhausted, but he got up and went downstairs for a while.  He said a few funny things.  He smiled.

Now there is another misunderstanding with his stepmother, though.  She talked with my mom today and said that I had told her that I didn't want Jim coming home on weekends anymore.  That is not what I said.  I told her that I did like having him home on weekends, but if he was really down it might be better for him to stay there and I could come there on weekends instead.  I said he shouldn't have to go through the drive to get here because that's a lot of work for him.  She interpreted that to mean that having him here was too much work for me, and now they are planning to take him up to their cottage next weekend (4-5 hours away) instead of bringing him here (45 minutes away).  I don't know how I can say something so directly and clearly and have it twisted so much in the reception. 

JIm seems not have much voice in all of this, from what you say Mists.   Seems a fair bit of talking 'around' him,  others assuming what will be best etc. etc. -  which often leads to problems, in my experience.  No way for me to know if this is Jim's choice or usual behaviour, or a dynamic of the family - possibly both.   I'm not judging, just mentioning what I'm seeing here.  The expression - "nothing about me, without me" comes to mind as possibly a useful strategy.   Hopefully you both will go for some counselling together, with someone who specializes in working with folks dealing with cancer.  

Mists

Another thought to consider

Jim may need time away from his folks-Really-so do check with him before he gets taken to the cottage.

The ride to see you well may be worth it for him. To be home in his bed, break from his folks,a nd to be with the woman he loves.

I echo Carolla, ensure Jim is part of his decisons!

At last some good news - the lump in his belly is nothing to worry about! That is indeed good news.

I agree completely that Jim is part of the decisions.  On Friday when the big, messy conversation took place, he was there at first then left to lay down.  At the moment his response to most things is "I guess" so he's pretty much going along with everything that anyone else says.  Still, he did eat something today and has been silly a few times and took a bath, which all seem positive to me.

Mists,

Just something I remember when my husband was ill.

He was in a state of turmoil and our roles changed. He found it difficult to make decisions and would defer to me (which wasn't usually the way).

As he put it, "You're my mother now, as well as my wife, aren't you?"

At that time of stress he wanted it that way.

I think at times of severe stress and illness many of us feel and act like a frightened child.......

Oh dear.  My prayers continue to be with you.

This is the first time i think I heard that Jim's dad is a doctor.  That explains a lot i think.  He is used to being in charge and having his decisions obeyed.  He appears to also  a bit emotionally distant, never calls, doesn't see you, didn't know his child was depressed. 

So now he feels guilt over this.  You talk about his parents but then referred to her as step mom.  Adds sometimes to a complicated family relationship especially if she is part of the reason that Jim doesn't see his dad much.

Also many kids of Doctors have issues with the "obey my orders" type of personality that often went into medicine in the day.  Now docs are much more collaborative than they were.

He should not be giving Jim care and for sure that was a strange decision around the drain.  Now perhaps it was giving Jim pain and his own doc asked him to remove it.  Who knows.

I am puzzled by the fact that Jim's father seems to be the one talking to the doc and also deciding that Jim isn't tolerating the treatment.  Even though you aren't there you need to get into the loop on information so you can help Jim make his decisions.

When people are ill they can often retreat emotionally.  Being very ill, taking difficult therapy, living back in his dad's home .  All those things may have caused Jim to rely on them more than he needs to.

They were rude and agressive to you.  At this point ignore it.  In all their rantings they had a couple of points.

they are concerned he isn't doing well.  And for some reason they had been keeping that from you.  Perhaps out of concern for you and knowing you were at work and would only worry.  Perhaps out of a need to control the situation.  No matter what the reason, jim's father the doc, is most likely making a good assessment and perhaps if he is friends with Jim's oncologist he is getting some "inside" info.

So listen to that.  They don't think he is doing well.  They are concerned that Jim will have trouble coping, not just with being home alone while you work but with the little duties related to Rachel.  ( assess with Jim whether in fact he is ok being alone in the house while you go to work)

I would ask your folks to keep Rachel but bring her down on the weekend.  Then your mom is there to help you, Jim gets to see Rachel as do you but you can both rest easier knowing that Rachel is getting good care from your mom during the week.

Secondly I would pay attention to the fact that they feel they make the health decisions for Jim.  They do not, not in any hospital.  Be clear with them that Jim makes his own decisions and that you are his wife, partner, next of kin and if he were to lapse into a coma it is you who are in charge.  Discuss this openly with Jim. 

I would take time off work to go to Jim's next doctors appointment to ensure that the doc is following good practice and not giving info to the parents instead of the patient and his wife.  ( all this assumes that jim hasn't signed over power of attorney for medical health to them) 

And make sure he knows that Jim is in charge and you are second in charge and his parents are only allowed to get information from Jim or you, not the hospital staff and not the doc.  That is a clear violation of patient privacy and he/they need to know you are upset.  While it isn't good to get into fights with your doc, be very clear on this.  His parents questions need to be answered by the staff with  " we have discussed this with Mr. and Mrs Smith so please talk to them"

Talk to Jim about how he wishes to spend his weekends.  He may wish to be home, to sleep in his own bed, to watch tv with you, to cuddle Rachel.  He may also wish to spend time at his childhood cottage if he loves it there.  but he may be feeling smothered.

It sounds like they have been controlling the message with Jim and that isn't good.  A grown man has the need and the right to fully understand his treatment, prognosis and options.  This gets back to issues with his doctor and perhaps your father in laws relationship with him.

Resist the urge to lash back at them.  It won't help.  Though , man it would have taken a lot of will power for me not to lash back with

"if you hadn't been so self absorbed and distant from your son you would have seen that for two years he hasn't been himself.  And if he felt at all comfortable with you he would have told you, if you hadn't been so blind as to not notice"

On this sunny Monday morning i am praying for healing and wisdom for all of you.