Isn't it just a slightly unhinged expression of consumerism? If it was money in the bank she was hoarding, would it really be any less disgusting?

If so, why?

I can't think of a reason.

i don't think so...

money in the bank doesn't get rotten.  money in the bank doesn't attract vermin into your house.  money in the bank doesn't make the neighbours call the health department because of the smell.  money in the bank doesn't cause your home to be condemned by the health department.  money in the bank doesn't cause your friends to vomit because of the stench in your house.

no, this is an entirely different kettle of fish, mike...

sigh, yes i think this is a mental illness and/or the first signs of elderly dimentia. Many elderly live in these types of condidtions.

I have come to the conclusion that I'm a hoarder. I can barely close the door on my upright freezer.  As soon as there is space I fill it. Chickens were a buck a pound this week. i got 6.

I still have a turkey left over from Christmas. My fridge is full, but i weed out the spoiled stuff.

My teenagers whine for food that can be cooked in a microwave, if at all (the 18 yr old got over 90% in her cooking class). Their mother, whom I am sheltering is worse than me - but with non-food stuff. I can still walk around the house, but I don't get to see many corners. Fortunately, the junk has insulation properties. There's no room for my motorcycle in the dining room any more :(

I have never refused food, shelter, or protection to any woman or child who needs it. They have accumulated to where I can barely keep up.

Still, we usually throw out 5 bags of garbage a week.

Growing up in poverty and abuse is the most common cause of  hoarders. Old age just gives them (me) time to pile things up.

 Sigh: hoarding money may be less visible but the impulse is just as personally unhealthy. 

A friend of mine became a hoarder after a brain injury.  When she moved she brought her unopened bottles of alcohol back to the liquor store and got a refund for over $1200 and she never ever drank.

I have to fight my own hoarding constantly.  I remember as a child crying as I threw out peices of scratch paper becaue I thought that they would be lonely without me.  I really identify with the woman on one of the episodes who said that she was a rescuer of things.  It was very difficult for me to allow my mother's things to go to charity or get thrown out.  I really wanted to keep everything and had to fight tooth and nail not to.  It actually hurts to think of her things out there, maybe homeless and I hope that someone gets them who really appreciates them.

It sounds like an urban legend, a friend of a friend.  They had no idea that she was a hoarder - just that she was a very private person.  If somebody (say the clergy or visiting elder from the church) called and ask if they could come for a visit she would want two days notice, and she would tell them to come to the front door and usher them into a clean and tidy parlor.  That was the only room in the house they ever saw.  Eventually she died (or was moved to a nursing home) and people went to her house.  The entire house, including the parlor, was crammed with 'stuff'.  Old newspapers and magazines, books, boxes of old clothes, cans and cartons of food, furniture and broken furniture, whatever.  Apparently when someone was coming she managed to move most of the stuff from the parlor and clean it up.  Then, possibly to be able to get into her bedroom, she would move it back.  No one had any idea that this was going on, or for how long.

It is indeed a recognized mental health diagnosis - in the anxiety disorders category. 

I've watched a few episodes too sighsnootles ... it is truly amazing.  To see that people have lost custody of their children, and the angst of some of the children living with their hoarding parent(s) ... quite an eye-opener.  It must be an awful way to live.

I had an experience when my kids were in elementary school ... had to go pick up something from the PTA president - an interesting, well organized woman, kids & herself always immaculately turned out.  Her house was a wreck ... not to the point of those featured in the TV show, but definitely way beyond the 'usual' household chaos of a home with 4 kids.  I was so surprised and taken aback.  I felt my own sometimes slightly disorganized home was in pretty good shape by comparison.

Somegirl ... good for you for letting your mom's things go ... that really can be a difficult thing to let go of things belonging to loved ones.  It's interesting how in the TV show, the psychologists often help people remember they can hang onto the memories, even when the things are gone. 

 sighsnootles, I'm a bit surprised you thought it was a hoax other than the fact that it is for a tv show.  TV is good at sensationalizing pretty much anything.

Every few years there always seems to be someone with a tons of pets (cats or dogs).  The scenes from these homes are always  shocking.  I don't really see a huge difference between these people and those who hoard things.

Many people on here have said they hoard things.  Mental disorders are often apparent as something normal that has been exaggerated to something abnormal.  Someone who is 'normal' can be a little blue, obsessed with cleanliness or having something a certain way, or food issues, but when extreme these are classified as depression, OCD, and eating disorders.  Hoarding I think is similar.  Many people have a psychological attachment to various things and have trouble getting rid of them, in extreme cases this is hoarding.

My grandmother was a hoarder, which got worse as she aged.

In part this was due to being very poor ...at times in her life.

In part, i think from depression era.

Examples:

clothes that were never worn, kept for good with labels on, while her clothes she wore were pinned together as way too big for her due to her weight loss

cartons of labels taken from canned foods so could enter competition

a pantry / cupboards full of food

money stashed 

stacks and stacks  of newspapers

Cleaning out her apartment was crazy after she died, as every envelope or crumbled up piece of tinfoil in her drawers or stashed in a pocket had to be opened up.  One might find a $20 bill or a nickel....

i don't think so, really...

unless the person is hoarding money to the extent that they live in a box and eat catfood while they have 3 million in the bank... THAT is definetly a problem.

but if they are able to manage a family in a home, i don't think that hoarding money in a bank is nearly as dangerous as that woman who was hoarding food and having it rot in her home.

i guess i'm getting old and crotchety, because i kept thinking 'just quit shopping and pick up your house already'...  and like i said, i was becoming bored with the show, because i thought it was just another reality show trying to create a sensation...

but then i saw this woman last night.  for someone to fight the health department over yogurt that is past the expiry date, standing in a house that reeks of rotten food??  THAT ain't right.

i'm a believer.

actually, come to think of it, there was one episode where a couple hoarded cats.

that was horrifying.  they found over 100 cats in that house, only 40 or so were alive.  of those, only 8 or so didn't have to be immediatly euthanized because of feline respiratory illness.

The Depression left it's mark on my Nana. When I first started work, I came to the city and lived with her.

She couldn't  face throwing out any food that was over from a meal. She would carefully place it on a saucer in the fridge - "in case we needed it later". There were times when I would see a row of saucers lined up like soldiers on the fridge shelf - one might have nothing more on it than six green peas.

Mum told me it was due to the Depression, and just to wait a couple of days and throw them out - and Nana woudn't know. She didn't.

Makes me realise how lucky I've been not to know real hunger.

Pathological hoarding, on the other hand, is a mental illness.

On a lighter note, have you ever noticed how often a hoarder has a "thrower outer" as a partner?  Must be nature's way of keeping reasonable order. 

On one of the few episodes of the TV show that I saw, there was a couple.  The husband accused the wife of being a hoarder and called in the help.  However when they started going through the house it turned out that the wife was willing to part with quite a few things she had been hoarding but her husband absolutely refused to get rid of the vast majority of things.  It turned out that he was a much bigger hoarder than she was.

Hoarding is sad people are addicted to things that they hate ....

 -hoarding is survivalist thinking born of fear

-the fear is of course fear of poverty and it displaces and inverts the idea of a bountiful God and a bountiful earth

-it blocks the path to trancendence and turns our gaze from the heavens down to the sidewalk so we can scrounge for pennies

-those who adopt it as a strategy think it very sensible and are difficult to convince otherwise

Heh Qwerty -- nice new pic!

 I missed the cat episode (I've only watched a few of them).  I'm amazed at how many animals people can manage to get into a house before neighbours end up complaining.

the cat couple was paired with a guy who had a dog, and his house was full of pet waste... he was convinced that if he threw out anything that had come from the dog, whether it be hair or feces, it would harm the dog in some way.

the therapist couldn't even walk into his place without a mask.

Hoarding is a mental illness. There are more hoarders than you think.

What if you are messy AND one of those people who is constantly getting rid of stuff? 

Is fear  that you might develop into a hoarder  a mental disorder? 

Is fear of keeping anything that can be easily moved  on the grounds that "it's messy enough in here" a mental illness????

Is tossing out everything that can be easily moved and still having a messy house a mental illness?

Help . . . .

LOL!!

snaps, just watch an episode.  if you house looks and smells like THAT, then you need help.

i have a messy house most of the time, because i have kids at various ages and stages... but it never has degenerated to the point where i have over 4 feet of detrius in every room and have to step on clothing to get to the fridge.

THAT is hoarding.

When I was working as a therapist in psychogeriatrics about 20 years ago I did stumble across a food hoarder.  This woman was in the hospital with early stage dementia. The family had agreed that it was time for her to move to a supported care living situation.  I did have to do a home visit in this process.  I remember entering the kitchen and not being able to see the tops of the counters.  Every counter was covered in bags abd bags of store-bought pasta and other forms of non-perishable foods.

However, in this case it made a great deal of sense.  Not only was she in the early stages of dementia and couldn't remember what she had purchased or what she had at home... she was a survivor of Auschwitz and the dementia had triggered a fear of not having enough food.  She had coped for about a year (pre-hospitalization) by simply hoarding food so she wouldn't be hungry again.

It was very sad.  Because she had started wandering she was on a locked in-patient unit (where I worked).  Being locked on a unit began triggering all sorts of memories of being held at the concentration camp.  I can remember her running over to me saying that she couldn't find the children, that they were starving, and so on. She was truly terrified.  It was heartbreaking and is one of the strongest memories I have of being an occupational therapist working in mental health.

Hoarding has a lot of different causes, some learned and some inherent.  Sometimes it can be due to fear of poverty, sometimes fear of losing something that will be important if you throw things away, sometimes it can be a defense mechanism to keep people away, sometimes it can be because people are simply too overwhelmed by other issues that the stuff takes over, etc.

I am a hoarder; it's part of my obsessive-compulsive disorder.  It's hard for me to get rid of things because they MIGHT be useful someday, especially knowing how much stuff piles up in landfills.  (It's helped a great deal to have increased recycling services and to find out about places where I can drop off items that might be useful, rather than just tossing them.)  

A Peek In To My Mind:

Right now there is a good, sturdy shoe box on my kitchen table.  It's in excellent condition and could be useful someday to store something else.  It seems like such a shame to put it in the recycling box.  It's been on the table for over a week because I can't decide its fate.  If I keep it, I need to find a place for it.  If I toss it, I might end up needing a box just like it and then I'll wish I hadn't gotten rid of it.  If I keep it, I need to remember where I put it AND remember to get it when I do have something to store in it.  If I toss it, I might have to buy another box later and this one is free.  So, it sits on my kitchen table...waiting...

As I continue to look around, I see a Christmas gift bag on the floor.  I'm not sure what's in it, but I suspect I put something in it because the bag was the right size.  I have a lot of trouble with gift bags.  The point of the gift bags is great...use them again and again and you waste far less paper.  That's only IF you keep them, though.  I don't have a place for gift bags yet.  I want to have a place for gift bags, but the spare room is too full of other stuff that I need to sort through and get rid of first.  What should I do with THIS gift bag?  It's in ok condition; I SHOULD hold on to it and use it again.  If I try to stick it somewhere, I'll forget where it is, though.  It doesn't have a home, so it's sitting on the floor and has been since Christmas...I'm not sure if it was Christmas 2009 or even 2008.

The story goes on and on, and it gets worse because the clutter from the items that I haven't dealt with makes it hard to find things, so I buy something not realizing that I already have something like it and don't really need another one.  I'm particularly bad about information; I grab brochures and flyers all the time and I bring them in to the house and hold on to them after I've read them, "just in case" I need them again, but it just causes paper to pile up. 

Add the rest of my life to this...I'm a full time teacher and I'm a mom to a 3 and a half year old.  I suffer from anxiety and depression in other ways, which makes my energy pretty low sometimes.  The clutter overwhelms me; sometimes I just can't deal with cleaning up the house because I have so much other stuff to do. 

Before you start imagining piles of dead cats and rotting food, I have to tell you that I'm a relatively mild hoarder, but I can definitely see how it gets out of control.  In fact, I've been out of control a few times in my life.  When I lived in a basement apartment once, I didn't have a blue box.  I didn't want to put cardboard and pop cans in the garbage so I kept them in bags to bring to the recycling depot on my own...but I didn't get there for a very long time.  My kitchen was filled with bags of cans and boxes, to the point that it was mostly useless to me.

Someone above commented that hoarding was related to consumerism and I definitely want to comment on that because I think that it is almost never related to consumerism.  Most of the hoarders I have known aren't hoarders because they are trying to have more, but rather because they feel guilty about getting rid of something potentially useful.  A lot of what they have is broken and they plan to fix it, either to use, sell or give away.  As time goes on, it just becomes so overwhelming that the cycle continues.  For example, we buy storage containers in hopes of cleaning it all up some day, and they just add to the mess, or we can't find something we need because it's so cluttered and we buy a new one, not because we just want a new one.  For most hoarders, consumerism isn't part of the issue.

 Thanks for that post Mists.  It makes sense how the hoarding starts and gets out of hand.

Re gift bags.  I take the biggest one I have and put all the other ones inside it.  I have one that is just christmas bags and one that is "other"  Then both large bags sit in the basement waiting for gift time.

Sadly I do prefer paper so don't use them alot. :)

I think that the issue of keeping stuff is not unusual. When my in laws sold their house they had so much stuff.  They had only lived in Canada for 20 years and the stuff was unbelievable.  My father in law was a hoarder of sorts.

They moved to a 3 bedroom apartment, we tossed an entire garage of stuff when he was away, told him we took it home with us but in reality we rented a dumpster.

Flash forward 8 years and both have died.  WE all assumed the apartment would be pretty easy to clear.  After all he had gotten rid of stuff, so we thought.

No , he had tons.  He had installed shelves in all the cupboards and all were crammed.  Boxes of tax stuff from 20 years ago. jars of random screws and nails............

It took days to sort the stuff.  He had 20 pairs of unopened underwear plus 30 or so pairs he wore.  WHo knows, maybe it was on sale ?  The mens shelter was pretty happy.

Mists,

Would it help you to hire a sorter to come and help you discard stuff?

Would it help to have a time line?  If I can use the box today or tomorrow i will keep it other wise it is gone?

Would it help to give "good " stuff like shoe boxes to Good will?

I'm much more motivated to keep things organized and not have so much stuff now that I have a small child; I obviously don't want her to get things she shouldn't have or trip over stuff.  I'm also on medication which helps with my anxiety overall.  Good will and places like that are a huge help to me because I know that stuff isn't going to be just thrown away; it can be used.  I got rid of 2 big boxes of old clothes a few weeks ago.

At the moment, the best help would be time with Rachel out of the house.  I'm thinking of letting my parents take her for a few days or even a week in the summer so I can stay here and sort things and create places for things that don't have homes at the moment.  It will still build up over the course of the school year all over again, but the better my system is to start with, the better it will end up overall.

Here's a site that explains the reasons why people (mainly those with OCD) hoard.  I thought it was a pretty good list:

http://understanding_ocd.tripod.com/hoarding1_why.html

Mists!  Get outta my head! I feel very similar to you.

I have a 5 and 7 year old and the amount of paper they bring home from school - would surely sink the ark!  

I think your plan of having some free time this summer is awesome.  For me, it would work better if some took my kids and someone else (my Mum) would come and keep me focused on the task of decluttering.  I am getting better, but yes, it seems so overwhelming sometimes.

My husband doesn't have a sentimental bone in his body so for him, throwing stuff out is super easy.

Wishing you peace, strength and an uncluttered home.

kids bring home soooo much stuff that you have to be firm.

I created a kids box.  Those large boxes that boots come in are great.

I put reports and awards in there, a "perfect test"  ......  Maybe programs if they were in a play, that kind of thing.

Then i have a box of favourite books that i will keep for grandkids.  I kept one baby out fit for each.  And I kept a sample of each type of drawing they did.  One finger painting, one stick people......  It really helped me keep the junk manageable.

I also bought a large plastic box with a lid.  I put markers, crayones, stickers, glue paper.....  All the art work stuff in one spot.  Then if they wanted to colour it was easy to get out the complete box and just as easy to put it away.

By all means i woudl ask your mom for some babysitting help.  For your daughter, staying with her grandma for a few days of sleep overs and treats woudl be fabulous and for you it woudl help.

 Hello WC,

This is my first post.  I just made an account today.

This topic really hits close to the home for me.  My wife and I were very poor when we first met and so we really cherished the few things we owned(we never threw out anything).  As my career progressed and my income grew, we still never threw out anything, even when we had purchased a replacement.  We would say, "We could still use this if the new one broke", among other excuses.  After a while our apartment became too small, and we moved into a rented house.  When we bought our first house, one of the main attributes that we considered when looking at houses was storage space.  

The years have gone by and the new house started to fill up.  It got so bad that it was difficult to travel through some of the rooms.

That all changed when we saw the show called Hoarders.  It was quite an eye-opener for us.  Our home had some startling similar qualities to some of the homes on that show.  We still had most of the baby clothes.  We still had all the baby toys.  Tons of packaging boxes that I couldn't get rid of.  And so on.

It took some time and the development of a plan of attack, but once we started, it became very easy.  It started to be fun.

The freedom that we felt each time we purged a room was intoxicating.  Our lives have been made much less stressful and we've even started to adopt some minimalist leanings in our lifestyle.  It has even had a positive effect on our finances.

I normally can't stand shows like Hoarders because it has always felt to me that these shows exploit the weaknesses of some for the viewing pleasure of others.  My view has changed since I've starting watching this show.  I believe that though these shows may seem trivial or freak-show-like to some, they provide a much needed third party view of a situation that others may find themselves in, and provide an example of how to overcome these obstacles.

fantastic... its good to hear that the show is actually HELPING people, rather than just showcasing some so we can all stand around and stare at them.

and welcome to WC, by the way!!

We often confuse cause and effect in society. Is hoarding really caused by mental illness, or is it caused by the way we treat people who are different? The disabled, the poor etc.

 I think hoarding is often a grief and loss issue. I have seen it with many people with AIDS and many widowers.  We do not have the rituals to help us let go a grieve..  Many people are exluded from churches and grief groups. When my partner Robert died none of the UCCs in Ottawa accepted LGBT people. The MCC had closed because the minister and half of their members had died. bereavement groups for family and friends would only accept us in the  friends groups and only if we stay silents about sex.

Likewise I wonder how many Hoaders have been excluded from churches and other groups  because they are inaccessible becuae they live with learning disabilities, mental illness, develpemental disabilities, physical disabilities and so on.

Do any of the people on the TV show belong to churches or other groups in the community. 

For the sentimental stuff, especially kids projects, etc. try making a scrapbook.  Take a photo of everything and have a special school scrapbook showcasing their work (each with their own, of course) for each grade level...then toss out the work itself!  Include pictures of the kids working on stuff, too, or getting ready for big events during the year.  It's a nice keepsake without actually having to store everything they do.

Thanks.

 I started hoarding when I was left stuff by dead friends. I could not get rid of these things because I could not grieve. Also living on ODSP makes it hard to dispose of stuff, just in case you need something and you can not aford to buy it.

BTW I have an antique rocking chair. I need to give it to someone as I do not think I will be having a baby soon.    Does anyone know of someone in Ottawa that would appreciate an antique rocking chair. (The rails have been replaced, but the chair part is over 80 years old. )

I have never come close to being a hoarder, not even a collector, but that show and the "How Clean is Your House" have sure helped me to prioritize cleaning my house.  Of course I am not neurotic about it or anything and if you arrived at my door right now you might find a disconnect between what you see and my speaking of "prioritizing" cleaning, but I do fear allowing things to pile up and feel far more justified in the tossing of unnecessary items.   Of course TV is all about ratings, but it is edcuating us on what someone who hoards might be going through.   I met someone who hoards at a community meal I take part in and was able to have an intelligent sensitive conversation with him about his struggle to part with things.   I am not a therapist and didn't try to counsel, but I didn't suggest more garbage bags to help him get rid of things either.

maybe rev matt woudl ,like your chair for rocking his daughter alex

its mental illness.  like i said, when i saw that woman fighting to keep mouldy cheese she had fished out of the slime at the bottom of her fridge??  mental illness.

perhaps in your experience, alex.  but in general, its a mental illness. 

I agree it is a mental illness but I also see Alex's point.   You can be predispositioned due to a mental illness and still be nudged along by circumstances.  Or perhaps nudged by circumstances but without the predisposition able to draw the line at "pack rat" and never venture into full blown hoarding.  This is of course my uneducated opinion - all I know about hoarding I learned from TV.  I have noticed though that many of the folks who are on the show have tied the hoarding to a life event.   Often it has been early poverty or grief, so who knows.  

I haven't been back to this thread for awhile and have read through. First off welcome to crunchy.

I just want to relate a little story about a friend whose father lived alone. he was an intellectual and had thousands of books. he got dimentia and had to be moved and the house sold.

The books - what to do with the books? They started to box them to take them somewhere and one fell on the floor. it fell open and there was money tucked inside. They had to go through all the books - thousands, and they found money , cheques and important papers.

So beware!

Crazyheart - My imagination is whirling.   Imagine, someone struggling by on a small pension; going to a used book store and spotting an old book that she remembers from her school days.  She debates about whether she can afford it.  Then she takes out her $1.25 and buys the book.  At home she sets it carefully on her coffee table, just looking at it, experiencing the delight of owning the book,  enjoying the anticipation of reading it, a few chapters at a time, just before bed.  She opens a can of beans for supper - tidies her tiny room - picks up the book - opens it and behold, money starts falling out.  The book is packed, not just with words that remind her of her youth, but with tens,  twenties, and a couple of $100 bills.

Suggestion for hoarders who can't let go of  babies and children's clothes:  Cut them up and make squares to  sew into a quilt.  If you don't quilt yourself, you probably know someone who does.  A quilt whose patches are made of fabrics from  children's favorite clothes is a great nostalgia piece. 

Hi Sighsnooties.

I am wondering how much  of this applies to Namana and me. We sometimes call ourselves packrats. Not sure what others think of all of our treasures that tend to clutter up our house.

 On second thought Sighsnooties I guess that the others would say that we are a case in point.   --A prime example of what this thread is about. ...That's us.

 Now I am thinking about updating my WonderCafe profile. Maybe if someone could WonderMail me a picture of a packrat I could figure out how move it into the position of my military issue avatar thereby making myself look less like a target.

I think exhaustion has a lot to do with it...the stuff we accumulate needs to be managed and that's difficult for many of us. I can't stand clutter but I'm a lone wolf in my house on that score. I can't keep up with it and it drives me crazy because time, energy and urgencies in other areas always take up the time that needs to be devoted to thing-management.

Speaking of which, I have an office to organize since we got a new filing cabinet and tons of supplies. I'm happy with that but until it's organized, some gremlins keep thinking it's OK to just stuff their papers in there.

Thing-management needs to be addressed. How to keep it all from coming in the house...Flylady's on-line organzing system says that, for every item that comes in (not groceries), a certain number have to go out at the same time (I think it was 3). I wish I could get some of the other folks around here to buy into that thinking...

Thanks Crazyheart.  Oh and as for our books, trust me, there is no money in them...lol

I am a hoarder who has given up more stuff than I could afford to.  I have truely regretted having gotten rid of clothes and furniture that I have had to get again.  I get guilt about ownership and have been known to give perfect strangers things.  My mother has done this as well.  No, it is not dementia, it is only a pathelogical guilt of ownership of property and things made odd by a puritan background.

What is the defining difference?  Those who survived the depressions have always done well by making good use of hoarded stuff.  I guess when we have war and depression stories and feel that being wasteful is non-ecological our seams can begin to get heavy. 

But, definitely, I can relate to an eating disorder and OCD and hoarding all being related and often negative and yet, all have equally good and optimal reasons to exist. 

I learned that I can be a bit of a hoarder. I found watching the show sad but engaging and sometimes helpful to understand the reasons why people are holding on to so much stuff. If you have to have a bigger home (or even a second home, in one show) just to accommodate the stuff, it becomes more expensive to hold onto. Something that could resonate with people from backgrounds of want but that isn't easily seen.  

I learned a lot from a book called Clutter Control: Useful tips for getting rid of the mess, by Susan Wright (NY: Barnes & Noble, 1991). There are so many helpful comments. Here is a brief excerpt:

"People save things because it gives them a sense of control over life. Usually it is a sign of insecurity, a way of holding onto something so that you know it will be there tomorrow. . . .

"Just try throwing away some unneeded objects. You don't have to get rid of all our possessions, just one collection, one box of old clothes, a few books you never read, or knickknacks you hate. A safe thing to throw away is your three-year collection of old newspapers. Because something belongs to you doesn't mean you should keep it for the rest of your life.

"As you cull the deadwood from your life, you will inevitably get a feeling of lightness and confidence. Without needless clutter and with your possessions safely organized, you don't have to spend as much time thinking about the objects in your life. Your possessions will stop getting in your way." (pages 4-5)

I enjoyed the lighter feeling when letting go of things that in reality were holding me back, keeping me thinking about the past. It was very freeing.