....groin waving....like it.

Why buy into the dichotomy at all? Heaven's a two-dimensional model of human joy and gratification. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it's ultimately unskilful in terms of understanding the nature of Mind.

Well, if one believes that heaven is the heaven that one creates in the here and now, then one keeps on creating it.

Heaven is where the heart is.

If I find myself in heaven, what do I do?

First, figure out why there was no evidence for this before, and why God - assuming it's the Christian God who runs the place - sent some of the biggest idiots in the world as his spokespeople, and armed none of them with convincing arguments.

Then, after demanding those answers, I'd want to know about hell. Does that exist, too? What's that like? Are people really tortured? For eternity? Why?

If I don't like the answers, then I work tirelessly to end the practice. If I get sent there as punishment, then at least I did the right thing.

Hi InannaWhimsey,

I'm guessing we enjoy that lovely afterlife with our g_d.  I don't think it is a quantity experience, there is no itinerary or schedule of what happens when.  I thinkit is a quality experience.

What does that look like exactly?  Probably something different for everyone in some manner although qualitatively all permutations provide much the same thing.

Grace and peace to you.

John

"Wherever she dwelt was Eden", this was what Adam wrote on Eve's gravestone after she died, according to a short story by Mark Twain.

just a riff...just a model...the map is not the territory...

so THAT'S why in the throes of love i feel all warm n fuzzy...

thanks, heart :3

That'd be fun, fighting heaven from the inside :3

You should try reading Heinlein's book J.O.B. a Comedy of Justice, aboot a believer who finds out the truth aboot his g_d and decides to fight back...

do you think you'd still be able to learn?

image:  everyone in that heaven eventually becoming superknowledgable and experienced :3

of course, by then, they'd be little g_ds...and be shipped off to go create their own universe...

Hi InannaWhimsey,

There is a time and place for everything under the sun.  Heaven, according to the narrative has no need for the sun since The Son illumines all.  So I don't think we will lose the capacity to learn I just think there will be little that we need to learn and the time will be more profitably spent enjoying what is.

If heaven is a place of reunion and one of those reunions is me with my grandfather I do not expect, "what have you been up to?" to be a priority question.  For myself I expect that the opportunity to hold my grandfather and exult in the returned embrace will be more than enough to keep my happy for the greater part of eternity.

Maybe I will learn only how important those in the great multitude were to my story and conversely how important I have been to the stories of others also in that great multitude.

Knowing that would be a gratitude and humility overload which I can only process by presence.

That would make for some very short games of Trivial Pursuit  First roll wins.  My impression of the overarching narrative of scripture (at least the Judeo-Christian scriptures) is not that God is interested in humanity that is ultra-competent and self-sufficient.  I believe that interdependency is a higher value than independency.

Well that would make the Mormons happy.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Think about it. If your plane was forced to land in North Korea, and you said something nice about Kim Jong Un so you got to live with him in a palace, while anyone who didn't say anything nice about the Dear Leader was sent to the work camps, what would you do?

I don't see how this is different.

I would be very nice to Our Dear Leader (and cut his throat as soon as I got a chance)

Of course I'd do it lovingly. After all, I am a Christian.

If given the chance, I'd do the same to God.

Seriously, if your loved ones were being tortured, and some character who is being nice to you could stop it but won't, then yes, you'd kill him. That would go for Kim Jong Un or this hypothetical God.

Isn't it strange what and how our religion and churches have asked us to believe?  We have been, for the most part, brainwashed into taking the Bible literally.  Being taught as a child, it is very difficult to begin to think for yourself again.  In fact, it took me nearly 60 years!  Now I find myself on the far outer tips of those beliefs and often wonder if I should belong to the church at all.  Maybe it is better left to those who wish to keep things as they have always been.  Maybe I should shake the dust from my feet and move on.  It would be a much lonlier life, but I am having difficulty relating to the church services and to the church as it now stands,  -- and I have been a member all of my life!  Recent clergy, of whom we have had many, have given me nothing to think about, nothing to challenge my thinking, and nothing to learn. That may sound harsh and maybe I am partly to blame, but it is true.

We should believe that Heaven is a place we are going to someday, if we only believe??