Here's a CBC News link with over 600  comments of interest.

I read that. I feel sad for them. With no family support, I'm glad they're at least together. I think they should be in their own home if at all possible, with care aide support as necessary. If it's because of lack of community resources to provide that, that's a real shame. At their stage of life it seems very sad to me that they should be confined to hospital unless they're in direly poor health. Of course at 84, it would not be uncommon for people to have some trouble with day to day tasks and need some extra help- but not necessarily hospitalization. It sounds like they have some dimentia but I am not convinced that this measure was necessary. They need a seniors advocate- which, it sounds like their lawyer is acting as. Elderly people too often get disrespected and dismissed.

Putting an 84 yr old man in a straight-jacket (?) sounds an awful lot abusive to me. I'm sure there have been few dangerous 84 yr olds out there- but really? That bad? Surely there must be another way to help him- both of them.

so I read that they have already tried and been rejected from 3 different independent living places. That they regualrly "fire" their care staff.

 

No a restraining vest is not "best care" for the man.

Nor is an expensive acute care hospital where they need to be.

Ideal would be some form of care home-with regular nursing and meals-and where they could share a room.

More services than independent living-less services than acute hospital.

If you want to understand the situation - it is helpful to read through the many pages of the legal documents posted in the second link. 

 

As you see these people in the video, they have been in 24 hour care for a sustained period of time.  They consequently have been receiving nutrition, medication, medical & personal care on a daily basis and from what I read, their condition at the time of admission was not likely even close to what you see here. 

 

It is sad - and true - that there are elderly folk who require extensive care, but may not appreciate or understand this.  Everyone always wants to go home - who wouldn't?   I do wish there were easier ways for all. 

I think so, too. Who wants to spend their last years living in a hospital (or in a straight jacket.) A mid-way facility would be good but I don't know how much is subsidized here in BC if they are low income seniors. Some place where they have some freedom of movement and can go on supervised outings, to church, etc. or perhaps find out why they fired their 3 care providers, and see if they can come to an understanding that they need to stick with someone or they may wind up back there if there's no alternative? I don't know if that's a possibility. I agree that there are people who do require more extensive care- you hear about elderly people with dimentia wandering off and getting lost, etc.- but I do wonder about the straight-jacket, though.

My grandma lived in a place with 3 levels of care. She lived in her own apartment and made appointments with the medical office downstairs. Sadly, she was taken to emerg and passed away, but she never needed a higher level of care. Her suite was very homey- it was owned and partially subsidized by a church. This wasn't in BC but I know of at least one large complex like it in Victoria (I used to live in Victoria). One wing is private residences, the other is partial care, and the another is more of a hospital ward where nurses and doctors work, but there are common activities, a dining room that independent residents can use, medical staff on site.

On the other hand, there has always been a big population of seniors in Victoria, the demand for care is higher than average, and there are independently run group homes that I am not sure that the staff are adequately trained for. My friend had a summer job at one in our 20's- that was 15 years or more ago. She was a caring person, but I know she had no training other than first aid and what the company provided. She didn't stay there long (she went back to school). I wonder if places still operate like that?

Kimmio - it's not a "straight jacket" - it's a restraining vest - likely employed because he could not remember (because he has dementia) that he needed to call for help & was falling when getting up on his own.  I would not think it is just randomly applied.   Does he understand and appreciate why it is in use - apparently not.   

 

We do not use such vests in my hospital any more - not sure if that is Ontario wide.  There are significant restrictions on the use of restraints of any kind.  

I like the sound of the place your grandma lived Kimmio - it's a concept called "aging in place" where various levels of care can be provided within one facility. 

Have you heard of these group homes owned by companies that hire untrained staff (and train them), carolla? And home care companies that hire on site providers and give them on the job training? I know several of them used to exist in Victoria. Not sure about now. The one I mentioned was a big old Victorian era house- old, not renovated, not a cheery place. My friend was hired basically because she was physically fit and needed a job at the time. I don't think the standards were very high.

Certainly there is a wide range of places out there Kimmio - it's a 'buyer beware' kind of situation I guess.  There are always folk who will take advantage of the vulnerable ... in all aspects of life, sadly.   

 

There are. I don't think my friend had any intention of taking advantage- she was a helpful minded person- she was in her early 20's, she did the best she could, and recognized also that she didn't want to stay in that line of work. I think the companies, though, in a way were taking advantage of the fact that they could make money in a place with a high senior population.

The problem is (at least here in NS), that if someone lives in an assisted living place or a low level home and gets admitted to the hospital they need to be reassessed by the instituion before they can return home. They might find, that they are now too much care for the assisted living place and only allow returning under certain conditions (homecare three times a day, bathroom safety equipment) or not at all. That would mean the person is at a care level for a nursing home. But- if the person doesn't want to go to a nursing home and is considered competent, they end up being stuck in the hospital, unless their laywer or family takes them in or finds them another appartment and moves them there.

I have seen many people going back home that shouldn't have, only to be found some day on the floor for hours or coming back unkept with severe bedsores because the spouse that did the "care" didn't see that. People have the right to make bad choices.

If they are competent, they could call themselves a taxi and sign themselves out.

I wonder, knowing Victoria's reputation for having a high senior population, and perhaps not the highest standards of care from all companies (at least that is my opinion about years past, that some of these private companies might not have the best standards- not sure if it's changed) whether there was some truth to why they fired their care aides? I don't recall reading what agency they worked for.

umm, what is the point of them swearing on the Bible?

Their signed petition statement was under oath, you mean?

Carolla, your information regarding their actual state and situation was what I had read/heard as well.

 

That there are more issues here than meets the eye, and some folks are restricted by privacy policies and/or laws from speaking.

 

 

in the video they swear on the Bible...

I haven't watched it yet. Just read the article (and one last night) and some of the documents (my phone froze scrolling them).

Having been involvd in several of these kind of situations over the years (I have one ongoing right now), saying  that there is more here than meets the eye verges on understatement. My wife works as a home care physiotherapist and has, on many occasions, reported concerns to the CCAC, to famuily members and even called an ambulance for clients who refused to call one for themselves.

It's about balancing duty to provide care, with rights and freedoms, I guess.

And legal capacity for decision making.  That's most often at the crux of the matter. 

I just got around to reading more of the documents filed  in  court on behalf of  Victoria. Registry  Feb. 21,2014.

 

 

They both have significant health problems, 12 or 13 for  Mrs. Allen, some quite serious I should think. Mr. Allen has a few problems . He receives chemo treatments  every 4 mos.  for prostate cancer. It was mentioned that he had lost weight. I would guess he is restrained because they did run away from a care home ( ?) at one time and were apprehended by the police. 

 

At first I was feeling great sympathy for their plight but as I read further I'm thinking possibly they should count their blessings that the hospital cares so much about them. The hospital is doing what is in their best interests. Wherever they go their living conditions won't be perfect.

 

 

I understand their wish to be independent but they don't  fully realize the dire circumstances they are in. They are too ill to be independent and care for themselves and each other   while it appears they aren't happy  with care or the  home care possibly  offered. I don't know their financial situation. I believe they own a condo or a home.

 

 

See Part 4 document below   -  Factual Basis- for their health assessment. I can't c/p it. 4 paragraphs.

 

 

 

Yeah. That's a tough one. Ethically, I would think providers would have to be careful not to make hasty conclusions about that. If they contacted a lawyer- would that constitute legal capacity for decision making? Even if they're not the best decisions? I also understand the need to protect them.

You're probably right stardust. We had a next door neighbour who was elderly who developed dementia. My parents did, anyway (she lived there before I moved out, too). My parents were leaving early to go somewhere one morning and saw her walking down the middle of street at 7 a.m. in her nightgown. It was still dark. A few times she called police because she was hallucinating things/ people in the yard that weren't there. She would knock on my parents door at all hours because she had no immediate family. My parents tracked down a relative. She ended up having to go into a care home. It was sad because she had been a long time neighbour, quite helpful before she declined. As a teenager living there I didn't like her because she complained about me playing loud music when my parents were out- but I understand why. I feel bad that she became old and alone- and had to give up her home and her gardening. That's the saddest part.

I don't know what happens in BC Kimmio, but in Ontario, when people are found incapable, they must be given legal 'rights advice'.  So when people disagree in a situation such as this, a consent & capacity reveiw board hearing is called within 7 days of notice; a legal aid lawyer is appointed for the person & becomes involved - the person themself does not need to do anything to arrange this.  I suspect this may be a similar situation.  

Kimmio

Yes, its very sad. My step mother-in-law  age 89 was placed in a hospital against her will  and left there by her sister. I'm not aware of her medical problems other than she had been on heart meds. for some years.  She was a good walker, lived alone,  had a cleaning lady,  enjoyed brunch at a restaurant  almost every weekend, and went by bus and subway alone to church until she was put away.

 

 

She had vowed she would kill herself if she was put into a nursing home. In the hospital she was put on meds which gave her strong hallunications. She was confined via a strap to a wheelchair because she would run away.

 

 

After 2 mos. in hosp. we received a phone call from the hospital chaplain  one night saying she had taken a bad turn. She died next day. A nurse phoned and said she had choked....ho hum....end of story. I believe she was a suicide. She was to be placed in a nursing home the next day.  Estranged family problems so there was no discussion. 

 

It was very sad and the experience has scarred me for life. I'm not placing blame on the hospital or the patient.  I'm  just very bewildered  that something like this could happen.

I'm so sorry stardust (((hug)))

Thx. Kimmio...

Yay for the 3 OTs that  commented here (and of course the husband of a PT0.

It is not all it seems at first glance-My experise is really with children

But as for the restraining vests-have you ever seen the lounge type reciners in eldercare facilities? many of them are geri-chairs-designed so they are impossible to get out of without assistance.

 

Anyhow this story reminds me a bit of an incidence when I was working at Easter Seals Camp squamish. A teenage camper called 911 and told the police that his counsellor was being mean to him.

RCMP had to come and investigate. The counsellor was making him go to bed, getting him up "too early" etc. perfectly reasonable things at camp.

The young man had cognitive challenges. But did know how to work a pay phone and who to call.

We laughed over it the rest of the summer.

 

I came across the CBC article a few days ago, I didn't look into the legal doc at the bottom.  Kimmio, it sounded a lot worse to me than 'some dementia', and they are probably doing better in the video because they have been nurished.  I found the insulin thing odd, a doctor posted the article on fb and it was would stood out to him too and he was disappointed CBC would even publish it.

 

Someone who really needs insulin and refuses it is likely going to need a high level of care.  People typically aren't admitted to hospital unless they need to be there.  I find the cases in Winnipeg where people were discharged, sent home in a cab in the cold in the middle of the night and died before making it inside more of a concern.

 

I wonder what time of day the video was taken, I suspect a time was choosen when the couple were likely at their best.

 

I was a bit surprised a lawyer even took them on at first.  I am glad though, it's their right, and hopefully they will at least feel heard after this.

 

The situation isn't ideal, but IMO they needed a higher level of care than what they had, and likely showed up at the hospital in much worse shape then what we've seen of them.  Hopefully they can get into some long-term soon where they get that care, but feel less like prisoners.

There is surely  some misinformation in the stories we are hearing. If I'm able to see correctly it appears to me that Mrs Allen is in a wheelchair?  Is this just a chair for her to sit in for the video or does she require a wheelchair? She did have an ulcer on her leg making her unable to walk.

 

Is Mr. Allen too weak to be out of bed?

 

 I'm curious about this story because its the first time I've seen this type of story being handled by a lawyer in court. The lady I referenced who died was well off and also requesting a lawyer. Due to  her  meds. I believe she would have been judged incompetent in court and also unable to change her will at that time.

 

 These people are judged to be suffering from  dementia but they will be in court for their case ....?...by video perhaps?.

 

Here's the same story with some variation from the Van. Sun :

see next post

From the Van. Sun: one day ago:

It's unclear to me where "home" is for this couple. Where did they live before they were placed in the hospital? Were they in their own home, retirement or nursing home? Sorry haven't had time to listen to the video yet.

 

I don't like restraints....at all. Only in the most necessary cases. I will assume there is a doctors order for the restraint R/T to his potential for wandering and him being in a facility that isn't properly set up for that. Even so, nurses are expected to use every other alternative available before one resorts to using one. Medication can be considered a restraint also. Personally, in the areas I've been nursing, I haven't seen a restraint like that one in over 15 years. It would not even have been available in any facility I've worked in since. Restraints usually cause more anxiety and unusual attempts to free oneself that inevitably cause more harm than good. IMHO.

waterfall

I think they had bought  a condo ( ?)  recently but I'm not sure. I'll look up another link that talked about what sounded like a good place they lived in. Its confusing.

 

Quote ( lawyer)

Aiyadurai said the Allens are willing to pay for a nurse to visit them daily at their independent living unit, which they bought before being committed.

 

 

"Perhaps if my clients need some care – why can't they get that out in the community?"

 

 

 

He said his clients want the public to hear their story, and that's why they recorded the video.

 

 

"Wouldn't people like to know that that can happen?"

 

 

The couple's legal action also claims they were poorly fed and bathed at the James Bay Care Centre, that Pamela is being treated with insulin against her will, that they have not been allowed to attend their church, and that they have no access to their personal belongings, including Douglas's confiscated wallet.  

          

The Vancouver Island Health Authority said both had been evicted from a number of independent living facilities due to their refusal to accept home support and their failure to take care of themselves and their residences.

 

When asked to comment on the case, authority spokesperson Sarah Plank said, "To protect the privacy and confidentiality of our patients, we cannot comment on specific cases."

I'm still searching...for their home..?

 

Its odd that due to all their physical problems they didn't have a family  doctor? They were wandering around the hospital looking for a doctor?  A nurse had told Mrs. Allen to see a doctor about an ulcer on her leg. I believe she had hoped not to need a doctor until she could no longer walk when she had no choice.

 

 

 

Cook street is a street that crosses an older residential (near Beacon Hill Park) and downtown Victoria. The cook street village area has a lot of senior residents, big older heritage homes. Some of them made into apartments, with a few newer buildings here and there. I think there are group homes in that area. I don't know of a care facility on that street but maybe there is one. Victoria's not a huge city so it's, I'd guess for them, about 1/2 hr to an hour walk, to Jubilee Hospital, but there's a bus nearby that goes right there in about 5 minutes so I wonder why they walked all that way. Unless they're at the other end of Cook Street. I don't remember what's in that area as well. I generally think of Cook Street Village.

 

I forget but perhaps they said they had walked to church and then walked to the hospital that day. Mrs. Allen had a bad leg problem. If so there's a good probability that they may have been exhausted when they reached the hospital. To top it off they would have walked again around the hospital to find a doctor. An article said they were both happy at first to receive medical treatment before they realized they were being detained.

 

 

Thinking about the whole horror story its very possible that the estranged family were in contact with the hospital and had their own stories to tell. Why would the gov't take over their money as P/A  so fast ( they couldn't spend it in hosp.) and the hosp. or whoever not return Mr. Allen's wallet to him ? Maybe they hid their money in a mattress at home and paid their bills in cash...?... so the gov't had no alternative.

 

 

 Its sad to think they have lost  their home, their money,  and their possessions with no preparation or inkling of what was about to happen. Its enough to make anyone suffer from shock regardless of age.