ANyways I decided to go confront her, and she was all dressed to go, but she said she had decided not to drive today.  I am still worried about tommorrow, I will be phoneing her daughter if I can find her phone number. BUt if she does continue to drive, and I can not find her daughters telephone number is there a special number to call. Or do I just call the police. What do say?

`

First I would suggest that you try to talk to her.  If that doesn't work, I think that if I were in that position I would try to find out who her doctor is and see if he (or she) might be willing to talk to her about giving up driving  (I think medical people can notify Motor Vehicle Dept. and have her license withdrawn.)     Otherwise, I think I might phone the police.  

But first, try to talk to her.  Maybe she has a health problem that could be corrected - new glasses perhaps.  Or maybe she needs to take a refresher course.  But probably she should try to find an alternate means of transportation.

I just got a hold of her daughter. Luckily I had it still on my call list on my call list on my phone. We shared stories and her mother had been telling her different things,  She has been wanting her mother to stop driving, after all most having an accident with her so/grandson.  She is calling her now to get her doctors name, and will contact him or her to make an appointment next week which both of them will go to.  I also gave her the number of the 91 year old. She will try to tell her mother not to drive until then, and that I will drive her to any necessary appointments until then.

I really did not know what to to, until I decided to write out the problem. I could not reach anyone I knew on the phone. Just writing it  so made me reaslise how important it was that I act promptly, which I did.  I am glad I did.

I think after a certain age or some other predetermined criteria people should take their driving test annually.  A person's driving abilities can go down hill very quickly in a year.

It is funny how driving is like partying is for teens, in regards to talking about it. The 91 year old is afraid to say anything to the women's daughter because she does not want to be blamed if her license is pulled.

It is a huge issue, When I was talking about the problem earlier this week, two of my friends told me two different stories about accidents with senors, who begged the person they ran into not to report it. In one case a man in his eighties offered to write a check up front for 5000, for any damage, to show his good faith if the other person did not call the police.

Except in pretty limited cases in Canada, particularly in the winter, public transportation isn't a particularly viable option for seniors. Losing your license means losing your independence. And as nice as it is to have someone drive you around, it's ultimately much more convenient and reliable to drive yourself. And yes, understandably, there's a tendency to be protective of others in the same situation. 

(And Alex, bipolar in seniors is a nightmare.)

I also believe that it is a big marker in aging. Between those who can drive and those who can not. it is seen as one big step towards the end of life.

Anyway I went over for a drink with my neighbor. she is pretty upset, but she showed me her mess, and I believe she is being over medicated as well as one some new drugs, with unknown side effects, from a few doctors.. Hopefully it is just that and she will be fine after her daughter gets someone to look at them and either reduce or eliminiate or change some. as well as other issues that might be responsible.

Glad to hear you got involved Alex - 'it takes a village' - I congratulate you for your courage to act. 

In Ontario, the police cannot do anything unless a person is actually on the road & they witness unsafe driving.  Doctors are obligated to report to Ministry of Transport in certain medical circumstances - then the person's information is reviewed & the Ministry, not the doctor, revokes/suspends the license if deemed necessary.  

After age 80, I think it's every two years that the person must take a driver exam - however, it is usually  just a simple eye test & a written test - not on-road unless signficant difficulties are noted.

It is hard to give up the car for sure.  Some families set up accounts with the local taxi company - so the person just signs for each ride & a bill is issued monthly.  Seems to work well.

I am a senior.  I ask two things:  

1/   Please, please, please don't take my driver's license as long as I am able to drive.  It means my freedom and independance.  It means I can take a quick trip out to my daughter's place (during daylight hours) if she or my granddaughter call and need me.  It means that I can get to church on Sundays when no buses are running.  It means I can pick up groceries, or get to doctor's appointments, or the library, the bowling ally or the mall when I am in the mood and have the time (not on someone else's schedule.  It means that I can continue to do pulpit supply in the little rural churches with a 100 klm radius of the city.  It means that I have dignity, independance, that I am self-sufficient and not a burden on anyone.

2/   Please, please, please take my driver's license when I become a danger to anyone.  

A relative of mine lives in Ontario and told me this, carolla.  She also told me that she that when she asked the girl about an actual driving test and the girl responded that it was just a written test, she (jokingly) asked the girl if that was because the driving tester was afraid to get in the vehicle with an 80+ person at the wheel .

I know of several 80+ year olds who gave up driving on their own - I always think that is the best scenario.  But unfortunately it does not always happen this way.  These are difficult situations for both the senior, family, and friends.

In our community taxis offer a discount to seniors, and we also have a "handi-van" in  which the rides are booked in advance (so there is less flexibility), and the rates are about half the prize of the taxi.

Hi Alex,

Beginning at the age of 80 licensed driver's need to submit to a vision test and written test  every two years to have their license renewed.  Of course the vision test and the written test do not measure spatial reasoning which is required in determining whether two cars on the same street can pass each other safely.

Personally, I think that the written test requirement should be scrapped and replaced with an actual road test.

I know that when my Mother-in-law finally had her license taken away it was after my wife contacted her physician and mentioned that she appeared to have difficulty with turning mental decisions into appropriate actions.  Things like "I see the stop sign and I should start braking . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..now oops."  Some medications that my mother-in-law is taking appear to impair her ability to process information and respond quickly.

Not the kind of thing one looks for in a driver regardless of their age.

The physician booked her for an appointment, and told her that as a result of that appointment she was calling the Province and suggesting that her license be revoked for reason X.

I have some nonagenarian drivers in my congregation who are still very sharp mentally and have fair to middling reflexes.  They limit themselves wisely and are not a menace.  

And then I have one nonagenarian who had her license taken away (according to rumour) almost 30 years ago who still drove herself to worship on Easter Sunday morning even though she lives six houses down the street.  She managed to park her caddy right up against the steps to our front doors.  She probably never felt the curb because she will not drive faster than 5kph.

The kids could not be bothered to take the car, or at the very least the keys, away from her (she is very formidable for being so frail).  I haven't seen the car recently and she was at church on Sunday so maybe the kids finally did manage to convince her to give it up.

I've had a couple of close calls with Senior drivers.  I tend to call the police, report the number, go on record with what I saw and let the authorities deal with it from there.  One old guy was clearly rattled and stoped for a red-light in the middle of the intersection, fortunately there was no cross traffic.

I know that having a car is, for many, the last symbol of independance and they are very fearful of giving it up.  My Aunt is in her mid-eighties and she still drives.  She is aware that her reaction time is slowing down and she has spoken very clearly about what that will mean to her and her lifestyle.

If you see her driving dangerously, report it to the police.  If you talk to the daughter tell the daughter and suggest that the daughter talk to her mother's physician.  Losing her license will be a huge change for her it would be better that she doesn't have to deal with the guilt of causing an accident and losing her license that way.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hello Alex .... thank you for this thread....

Our family is approaching this very issue in regards to our mother.

The problem is that its not a case that one day she is fine to drive and the next morning all has changed and she is no longer able.

Its that slow blurry slide ..... the slow change from capable to dangerous.

We are also having trouble figuring out when that decision has to be made but it is coming very very soon.   We must be careful to make sure she is not an unreasonable danger to others out there.   Once again ... there is no definate line and we have to protect others as well as her.   Quite a quandry as to "when" is the time.

What to do and when .... not an easy thing....

In the meantime .... we are taking over more and more of the driving duties and leaving her with less and less reason and occasions to drive.   We also use this as a social time and take her to lunch, shopping etc.   This way she feels like she is imposing less.   That is a big thing with her ... not to impose ...not to be a bother...   I am sure that she is afraid of losing her independence and she feels her world shrinking ..... I would too..

Her car happens to be in pallitiave care and some day soon we feel it will have an end of life episode.    This we feel will be a gentler way of helping my mother to transition to no longer driving.

Thank you for bringing forth such a real world problem.

Regards

Rita

I love the approach you're taking Rita - considerate of the dignity of the individual.  

Sometimes I've wondered about a 'graduated' license too for seniors, as we have on entry side of driving - restricting some parameter of driving, as many people do themselves, rather than a full scale withdrawal of privileges in some cases.

There are some agencies in Ontario that will do a comprehensive driver assessment - both physical & cognitive testing as well as an on-road exam when warranted.   Unfortunately this comes at a high cost - somewhere around $500 last time I checked.  Some folks go through this process to regain driving privileges after an illness/injury has resulted in revocation of licence.   Some do it voluntarily - sometimes when seniors are in conflict with family regarding their abilities, this can be utilized as an objective third party measure of ability to settle the situation. 

There is also a centre near my home that has computerized driving simulators - and one can go there for evaluation, or practice before doing an on-road test.  It can likewise furnish independent information regarding things like response times, visual-spatial neglect, etc.   These centres are actually used by some large corporate entities who employ many drivers - to ensure appropriate skill levels - that's more of their business than seniors, or medically frail folks.

I feel sad today and worried for my neighbour. She seems to be having problems that could be either from stress impairing her thinking (mental breakdown)or some other illness.

Anyway she is still waiting for her daughter to arrive later. I hope it is soon. At least I made the daughter understand yesterday, that something is going on that is different than her usual problems. She has been hiding things from others that I have picked up since I see her often, to help with her dogs and other things.  

I feel guilty about the fact that I just want the daughter to arrive and take over the responsibility.

Alex

Anyone can report an unsafe driver to the Motor Vehicle Department.

The doctor can request directly to have the licence taken away.

Health Professionals other than doctors, who see the person as a patient and learn that the person is still driving even though he/she would not be safe, cannot report the person, as they are bound to patient confidentiality. They can, though, recommend to the doctor to act on that information.

Alex, I think you've done a great job at recognizing a need for help, and engaging your neighbour's daughter to assist where she likely was unaware of such a need.   No doubt you will continue to help your neighbour, in the best ways that you can, while her daughter helps with addressing her health issues.   Each of you has their own role in helping your neighbour ... and hopefully together some improvements can be achieved.  No need for guilt, IMO.

I'll tell you my friends story.

C's mother was living in an apartment in community outside Edmonton. Had a decline in her mental functioning but was OK living alone wth C and her sister both visiting regularly., and meals on wheels.

Driving was another issue.Doctor declared her not fit to drive and she received  letter in the mail advisng her that she was not fir to drive.

Problem was the mother didn't think the letter applied to now. After all she still had her liscense-the laminated paper one. And as her friends in the senior's apt. said  she was the best driver of them all!

After this went on for several weeks-the mother driving -just to local store or Tim Hortons-C asked police for advice. They said to call them when she was actually driving and they would remove her physical liscense as it had been revoked.

This actually wasn't neccessary as she was finally convinced driving wasn't safe and signed her car over to C who took it home.

This is quite timely in my life.

Seeler:  your options 1 & 2 are so real and valid..

Alex:  sometimes it is hard for someone to know they aren't safe..and of course, some people at 16 i won't drive with, or at 40...so have to be careful around age being the marker....but I get that with age can come declining eyesight or decision making...but, it isn't necessarily that way.

*************

The person "A" who is in my life has  done similair to what others recount.  Switched to driving only in days at first, as night vision was decreased.  Switched to only driving in good weather. Switched to driving in non-busy hours. 

This person lost their ability to drive temporarily due to a health issue.  They were only considering it a temporary loss, and did get it back.  Since then, they have had decreasing vision again, and were advised not to drive temporarily.

As of last week they were told to give up hope of getting the ability to drive back.

Now the decisions around what to do with the car, hwo to get around, etc have to occur, as compared to the previous "temporary" solution.

**********************8

What did we do in preparation

1.  Started taking the bus prior to having to take the bus.  Why?  Easier to learn the basics when you can see.   Problem:  In the past, takign the bus was what poor people did....so, there is a perception thing.   Problem:  You have to ask sometimes for stuff, and...hard to ask when you can't always hear well..so an ego thing

2.  Talked about finances.    Figured out how much a cab would be to do everything this person needed to do...then compared that to the cost of maintaining a car.   Then, found out that with cnib, we could get dscounted cab fares (basically buy a $10 voucher for $5. )

3.  Talked about calling us for appts.  There are advantages to one of us taking him for appointments as then we cna go in with him.

4.  picked up for regular events.   I now pick him up for church, and have arranged with custodian who lives close by to drive him home.

those are examples..but part of it is to work through the problems and take them apart one at a time

*************888

Has anyone figured out how much maintaining a car (not just gas but amortizing initial cost, insurance, license, regular maintenance, tires, oil, repairs) costs, as opposed to taking a taxi back and forth four or five times a week?

depends on how far, but, yes, I did some spreadsheets to that end, seeler.

Ok, my mom passed away when she was 90 - driving until she was 85.  My dad passed away and was driving up until he was 88.  Both were "ok" drivers and they did the written test (Ontario) when it was required (which doesn't have a time limit on it) and sometimes the instructions helped out just to get folks "out" so they could go home.

I'm 53 - I don't think my independence is judged by "my car" I understand the freedom a car can give.  My dad would only drive on the secondary highways and never in the city....after he turned 70.  While I appreciated his need to drive I wished the people couldn't drive after 70.  Everyone!!!!  Our reflexes slow down - while "we" might be safe drivers we can not react like we could when we were 16.  "We" put others a risk the older we get.

I am sure I will want to drive when I am 70 but I have friends that I can ask to drive me, get cabs/taxi's, hitchhike.LOL, but I don't want to endanger someone elses life just because of my need for independance.

70?  you have to be kidding.

That is the beginning of most people's retirements, their dream holidays.

My dad is driving at 80. He wrote the Ont. test.

My mom is driving at 78.

That said I don't loan them my car when they visit. It's an extra long van and this is a strange town for them. They did rent a car on their last visit.

I easily let my 21 year old son drive the van. He's used to it and the location.

My mom is 89.  She drives a supercharged Buick Regal.  She drives on the highway. She drives in the city.  She drives from Toronto to Minneapolis (1000 miles).  She writes the test every two years and always gets a 100%.  She drives everywhere and does it confidently and well.  I don't worry about her.  In fact, I think she's  my hero.

Yeah Qwerty.

My mother-in-law was pulled over for speeding on the 401 by a young whipper-snapper police officer. She was in her 70's at the time.  This officer proceeded to give her a lecture about how a woman HER AGE should not be speeding.  

She was quite ticked.

She interupted him and said:  You have the right to give me a ticket.  You do NOT have the right to give me a lecture.

lol...i love my mother-in-law

I think that retesting (the driving portion) everyone every 5 years or so would be a good idea.  I think doctors should also remind patients if they are taking a medication that they 'should avoid operating heavy machinery' while taking it and that yes, that includes driving.  There have been times where I wouldn't drive due to medication.

Another story - friend's father-in-law is Italian, speaks some English but does not read it.  He is over 80 now, so has to take the driver test.  He's a good driver, but nervous every time about failing the test - which is given to him verbally & he answers verbally.   He has managed to get a copy of the questions & 'studies' like crazy - essentially memorizes the whole thing.   Last time he did the test, he reminded the examiner that she had left out a question   But yes, he did pass again!

I think we have a good working system here in Oz..........

In my state (NSW), when you turn 75, you have to get your doctor to sign a form to say it's safe for you to continue driving - in order that your licence will be renewed.

At 85 you have the choice of having a practical driving test every two years - or obtaining a modified licence.

A modified licence means you don't have to do a practical test - and, with your doctor's approval,you fill in a form stating your requirements for food and supplies, medical, local services, and visiting relatives that are closeby. 

It's a restricted licence - but many older folk are content to just drive locally anyway. They still have a measure of independance, and thus are often willing to keep off the freeways, etc.

I know already that, when and if the time comes, I'll be applying for a modified licence.

(I haven't reversed parked since I got my licence!)

I would say the Aussies have it.

In Ontario the process is similar except for the mandatory doctor's signature.

Ontario doctors do have the authority to revoke any one's driver license due to health concerns regardless of age.  People who have suffered heart attacks, loss of consciousness, etc. routinely face losing their license until a doctor deems them fit to drive again.

In cases like Alec's the best approach is to have a doctor make a full assessment.  Declining abilities can be caused by many variables; from something as simple as an infection that requires antibiotics to more long term debilitating illness.  Without a complete examination no one knows.

I have seen too many seniors mistakenly diagnosed, including self diagnosis, to accept anything but a full physical. 

One personal example, I can provide dozens, is my father who diagnosed himself as blind, put himself and my family through a year of unnecessary worrying before I was finally able to convince him, with the help of someone from the CNIB, to go to an eye specialist.  He wasn't going blind.  He had a cataract that was removable.  He is fine.

The next crop of seniors - those damn baby boomers - will stress the status quo, not just because of their actual numbers but because they are an independent, stubborn and a dangerously informed group of individuals.  Unfortunately in the case of the information it is often erroneous or incomplete and this leads to poor decisions.

The status quo for Baby Boomers is to look for a 'one size fits all' answer.  You'd think by now we all would have learned that in life and people this application never works.  Like it or not each of us is unique, physically and mentally, and every case will require discovering the individual characteristics.

There is a certain part of all of us that lives outside of time. Perhaps we become aware of our age only at exceptional moments and most of the time we are ageless.
        Milan Kundera

Here's some evolving brain science related to driving ...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/this-is-your-brain-behind-the-wheel-how-research-will-affect-older-drivers/article2285747/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A+RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2285747

I've sure gotten old!
I've had two bypass surgeries, a hip replacement,
new knees, fought prostate cancer and diabetes.
I'm half blind,
can't hear anything quieter than a jet engine,
take 40 different medications that
make me dizzy, winded, and subject to blackouts.
Have bouts with dementia.
Have poor circulation;
hardly feel my hands and feet anymore.
Can't remember if I'm 85 or 92.
Have lost all my friends. But, thank God,
I still have my driver's license.