Your little boy is so brave! Keep encouraging him to talk to you and document what he says. Give him lots and lots of hugs and positive reinforecement. Encourage your friend to seek out counselling for the kids - what they are going through is really scary - and talking to the police was probably terrifying for them too. Do they have a social worker involved? Your son might do well with some counselling too. Good luck with this - it sounds like you are an amazing parent and friend.

Sorry to hear about this mama bear - must be difficult for all of you.  Custody situations can be so awful.   I think the CAS is the proper agency to be involved.   Not sure of your province, but in Ontario at least, they will investigate the situation and monitor if needed, with help provided for the mother and the kids.  If they do feel there is significant risk, they will respond more strongly.  

I would suggest that your son (and your family) is helping - by continuing to be friends with the other kids and keeping them in your life when possible - it gives them a perspective on what might be more usual behaviour from parents, and helps them perhaps feel more relaxed, at least when they are with you.   Reassure your son that other adults are indeed helping the family even though he may not know about it, and it's not his job to fix their problems, just to be a good friend and have fun with his buddy.   Hugs to you all.   

Not only did you do what was right but whta was legally required.  Whenever we have reason to believe a child is being abused we are legally and morallly obligated to inform the Child Welfare authorities.   It is their job to ascertain whether or not abuse is happening.  They are also prohibited from divulging who contacted them.

Unfortunately not always can they act as quickly or effectively as we think they should (and sometimes they overact, I have seen that too).

Mama Bear - I like that name.  I picture someone who would do everything in her power to protect her kids.  And its good to know that spirit of protectiveness extends to other children as well. 

I feel for this family that is being torn apart right now.  The mother is probably having a hard time coping and she is probably terrified that her children will be taken from her.  But that doesn't give her an excuse for abuse

Keep your eyes and ears open.  Listen to what your son says.  Try to keep in touch with the situation.  (I know, its easy for me to give advice when I'm miles away from the situation.)

But these children need a friend.  The dad needs a friend.  And the mother really needs a friend, although it may be impossible at this point for you to be there for her. 

Stories about child abuse haunt me.  I feel so bad for the little ones caught in a situation that they have no control over.  And I picture my little ones - remembering my children when they were little, and my grandchildren who are growing up too soon.  I'd be a Grandmother bear if I thought anyone was hurting them.   Grrrrrrr

unfortunately, it appears that the police involved did not have experience dealing with children.  taking testimony from a child is different from an adult, and it sounds like they basically just put the kid in the chair and questioned them. 

HOWEVER, you need to tell your son that THERE IS NOW A RECORD.  what he has done by telling you and getting his story told is HUGE.  if you are going to measure success by wether or not mom still has custody, then yes it does feel like he let everyone down.

but assure him that his report is now going to be part of a huge paper trail, and when this all comes to court, his testimony and actions are going to be a major part of the evidence.  i doubt that you will be the only people who notice changes, bruises, and other pieces of the evidence here... when your testimony is combined with all the other evidence, it will form a much bigger picture, and WILL have an impact.

tell your son that he has done very well.  and so did you, btw... not many people have the courage to do what you did... bravo.

Hopefully an official report was filed, even if no action was taken so far. That might give more weight to future charges of abuse.

((((mama bear)))) i can only speak on behalf of myself and what i would do in this situation, so here's my two cents.  i would call this woman and let her know that i actually have the house to myself for the morning/afternoon/evening/etc and would invite her over for a quiet cup of tea.  i would extend my genuine concern for her and her current situation (stress/divorce).

although i do not condone what this woman has done, it sounds like she could really use a friend or someone to talk to right now.  you can't judge until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes.  like i said, i don't agree with what she's done, but you mentioned a nasty divorce.  even the best of us can be dealt more than we can handle sometimes.

one day i received a call from a closest dearest friend, two weeks after she had her baby (2nd) and she was a mess.  crying to the point i could hardly understand her.  once she finally calmed, she explained that she just had to talk.  the baby was in his crib crying and she wasn't feeling right.  she was sleep deprived and the crying wasn't stopping.  she was really scared of what she was feeling inside and thought she might hurt herself or the baby.  she had locked herself in the bathroomi went over right away.  i have been friends with this girl for a very long time and i know that she would never do anything to hurt her children, but at that moment, i was glad i was there.  we had a cup of tea, i let her catch up on her rest and tended to the baby for a while but most importantly just let her cry and i listened.  it was the first and last time it ever happened to her.

i think it is important for her to feel that someone cares about her and the well being of her kidsand she will know that you know what is going on.  it's one of those tough elephant in the room conversations, i understand, but it could be the difference between her saving grace or her actions having consequences that she will regret.

as for your son, he is very brave and his actions speak volumes about the relationship you have with him.  i'm sure you've told him how proud you are and continue to reassure him that sometimes grown up messes aren't always a quick fix, but his voice was the first step in helping to clean it up, but it will take time.

i will keep checking in.  i hope eveything works out for the best.

I have sheltered older children who despise the CAS worse than the abuse or neglect. You would have to be a victim of the system to understand this.

They felt safer sleeping on my living room floor than anywhere else.

A couple of suggestions. Dad should document injuries - take dated pictures, take the kids to the doctor. The kids are not going to talk if they are afraid of further abuse but at least he can track their injuries. Also, I'm not sure why CAS can't act. In BC, MCFD (Ministry of Children and Family Development) can act when the police can't. There has to be reasonable grounds to believe abuse is going on, not proof that the police need. Very sad situation. And while I understand Mom may be having a hard time it's not an excuse to abuse the children and the children need to be protected from her until she can get help.Also, in BC we have a program called "children who witness abuse" with counsellors who work with children. That may be helpful for you son but it would likely be unsafe to send the children who are currently being abused. I would contact your local women's shelter and see if there are any programs available for your son

... and i have dealt with many children who have thrived in the care of the CAS, and with their biological parents who are thankful for the CAS's involvement in their situaitons and the help they recieved to put their families back together.

just sayin'.

Sighs - I have no doubt that the CSA usually does a good job under difficult circumstances.  but sometimes they show poor judgment.  

Here is a real life case that I recently heard about from someone who was involved.  Dur to unemployment, illness and depression a couple fail to make payments on their mortgage for months and months.  They ignor notices and deny receiving them.  They are threatened with eviction.  The wife contacts social services and is put on a waiting list for possibly needing housing.  They continue living in their home, until the day the police arrive with all the paper work.  They are considered squatters because they ignored the evication notice.

There are two children involved here - one in elementary and one in middle school.  When they get off the school bus they will be homeless.  They are children in need of overisght and protection.  CSA goes to the younger child's school and picks her up.  Then they discover that the older child is away on a school trip to a 'camp' in the country.   The trip is scheduled to last over the weekend.  So CSA drive out to the camp and seize the youth.  He is embarassed to death - in front of his friends and school mates.  He is escorted to the bunkhouse to pick up his belongings and taken away to join his sister at a foster home.    They are only there for a few days.  The family's name is moved to the top of the list for public housing and the family is reunited. 

The boy's question is:  why did they have to pick him up at the camp?   He needed supervision and shelter.  Both were being provided by teachers and the camp staff.  He would have been fine at the camp.  When the buses returned after the weekend trip, he could have been called aside and had the situation explained to him - then none of the other kids would have to know.  They could just assume that the parents had arranged for these people to meet him and give him a ride - and he wouldn't have been so embarassed that he considered never going back to that school.    If a child could figure out a better solution, why couldn't the CSA?

seeler, i think that it is SO IMPORTANT to remember that confidentiality rules are always in place, so you will only ever hear one side of the story.  for anyone to pass judgement on this, or any other case, is to do so without all the facts.

therefore, i don't think that you can come to any conclusion, based on the information that you have given... it isn't complete.  nor will it ever be, as the CAS is obligated not to disclose the details of each individual case they work with.

secondly, you need to remember that it isn't the CAS or the social worker that makes the final decision regarding a child being placed in foster care... that is the decision of a family court JUDGE.  the social workers act on the will of the courts.  and i know that it goes both ways too, seeler... there are many times when a worker feels that the judgement given by the family courts is wrong, and they are forced to do what they are told, EVEN THOUGH they don't agree.

that very well could have been the case in the situation you describe, seeler... the social worker may NOT have wanted to apprehend the child in that situation, but was forced to by a court judgement. 

i think you need to be clear on who has the power in these situations, seeler.

Sighs - I have to agree that I don't have all the facts.  This was told to be me by a close relative of the children who was not in town at the time and not contacted or she could have come and taken care of the children. 

I inagine the scene was something like this.  The bank contacted the proper authorities to get an eviction order.  Notices were sent out.  Authorities found out that there were two children living in the house.  The police were given the order to procede with eviction.  Social services scrambled to find someplace for this family to go, but with the parents in denial it was difficult to communicate with them.  An order was given to CSA to pick up the children and place them in temporary care.  CSA workers visited the schools and the younger child was taken without any problem. 

But when they went for the older boy, they discovered he was not at the school but on a class trip.  The court order said that he must be picked up and taken into protection that day.  The CSA worker felt she had no choice but to visit the camp and pick up the boy.   

An unfortuante set of circumstances where probably everybody was trying to do their best.    But perhaps a bit of common sense and flexibility could be built into the system.

you won't get any arguement from me there!! 

how to go about doing it, though... thats anyones guess.  most people think there are already too many loopholes, not the other way around.

Mama Bear, this is such a sad and frightening story (from any perspective, not just the children involved).

You don't say where you are, but this website: http://www.thegatehouse.org/

could perhaps give you some information about the situation you are all in.  You could also forward this to the police officers you have been speaking with; the Gatehouse works Extensively with Toronto Police Services to assist in cases of abuse of children.

I hope you all find the best solution to this situation.

Adding some careful 2 cents...  wow -I've written this post, and now I'm editing and second-guessing myself - makes me worried how impossible it is to openly discuss this.

this is one occurence...  in a stressful situation... I'm not going to assume I know anything about the family at all, or the extent of the injury or the fear of the child or anything.

I do know that in my house, we have a rule "No one gets hurt".  I also know that my kids have been raised so safely that they have no idea what abuse is, nor do they get what counts as violent, so they astonish me regularly with their ignorance of how good they  have it.  My sweetheart was not so lucky.  He knows full well what a violent home feels like.  I can see the anguish in him when raised voices in our house elicit the drama queen responses.  They just don't know what it is like to live in fear.

I love the Harry Potter story because for once, a book didn't sugarcoat the reality of many children's lives.  The kid lived in a closet.  And he survived it.

And many of us were raised by wonderful parents with swats on the bottom regularly, and the occasional more impassioned swat or shove.  I was.  I survived, and have absolutely no concerns since.

You all can read the threads:  I always argue against spanking and physical responses, because I think we can teach our kids boundaries that don't require hurting them.  However, I don't think this eliminates the illogical once -in-a-blue-moon smack, or worse, the smack that causes a chain reaction - kid falls down into the chair and gets clonked worse than before.  

I don't know how to speak about this sort of thing without the raised eyebrows and shock - because if someone were to lapse, they are terrified to tell anyone because we all know the law, or  don't know what counts as 'reportable'.  And their friends all rush to their aid with similar stories of their own 'oops', with compassion & reassurance & udnerstanding.  And the kids are fine.

Anyone has those days that are worse than any other and something might happen, but it doesn't mean that 99.9% of the time, the kids are in the safest most loving home.   Our kids need to learn from us not only how to control themselves, but also how to apologize and recover when we don't.  Right now, there is no room for the 'oops' and the sane recovery where children learn healthy coping skills & that love includes mistakes.  And the kids have no sense of knowing that a spank doesn't constitute the worst thing that could happen, because they have been so well protected.

Blah.  We need a world without violence, and our children are unable to protect themselves or confidently seek help.  It is our job as parents, and the community around them.  But I see some lack of sanity right now in the standards or the process of help, or in weighing one situation against another.  I am of course, in a position where I know my responsibility if I suspect abuse or injury.  I know.  I just know that presently, the response is not balanced sometimes.  

Highly charged situations like ongoing divorce should be signs to others to reach out and support, no matter what.  Our laws & communities should be set up for proper family support from day one, including no more assumptions in our western world that we can do it all on our own or should.  This is the only culture in the world that leaves new moms on their own after the birth of a baby - why on earth have we created this?  And when the only response that our culture has is striking fear in parents for the 'what if situations', stress & exhaustion will be hidden from those around us even more.

by the way, despite all our laws, I know of a situation where the partner has been charged with multiple counts of domestic abuse against the other partner, and the only result is an anger management course.  Both are living together, the abuse continues and the abused partner is working in a low income job to try to get enough to move out.  The presence of children in the home has not changed the outcome.  So, we have laws.  And they don't always work.  This situation has an ethnic thread in it, and I just feel bad - so much for the wonderful liberating Canada.  

I don't know the answer, and I happen to know some wonderful CAS people who I trust to do their jobs with full compassion.  I am also not a rosy coloured glasses person who thinks that our present structure solves the problem.  I love Barbara Coloroso's reminder:  Chant "I'm the Grown-Up... I'm the Grown-Up..." over & over to remind yourself that you must keep the even keel, which teaches your kids that their world is safe and Mom/Dad is in control.  There are days I've chanted "I'm the Grown-Up, I;m the F***ing grown-up" and eventually I remember that I truly am.  Takes time though, when you're so wound up.  

Mama Bear - hugs to you and honour, as you navigate this situation.  Prayers for that family - for the mom & the dad, and the son; and for your son as he learns the world isn't perfect.  I think he is learning how to make it a better place - and that is a wonderful thing. 

And prayers for all the CAS workers & family members to remember that extreme responses are unhelpful, and compassion for all involved is critical.

Birthstone, I couldn't let your well written, intelligent, balanced thread go by without  acknowledging it.   I just reread it and again I am struck by your wisdom and your compassion.  Raising kids is not easy.  We need help, not judgment.  Sometimes kids do need to be removed from their homes, temporarily or permanently.  But often parents just need support, help, training in better ways to relate to their children. 

I love it when you repeat the mantra  "I'm the grown-up."    I remember hearing a woman yelling at her pre-school daughter, "You've ruined my day!"   She is a friend of mine - generally a loving mom who wants the best for her kids - but sometimes she is super-critical of this little girl.  Sometimes I try to intervene - not overtly because that doesn't work - but just to defuse the situation.   And the child has grown to a lovely and talented pre-teen, who still drives her mother up the wall.  Personality clashes.   

I never questioned that my mother loved me - it was a given.  She really cared about her children, and she and I 'clicked'  (although at times I thought my older sister got all the privileges and my younger one was 'babied' and 'spoiled').   But I also remember swats and slaps, and sitting at the table long after the meal should have been over, staring at a pile of boiled carrots as they grew cold, trying to force myself to eat one and gagging on it.  To this day I don't like carrots.   I know that there was very little money, that carrots are a healthy vegetable, and during the winters in a rural area there wasn't much choice - but why couldn't I have eaten my carrots raw since I couldn't stand boiled carrots?   Was I abused?  I didn't think so then; I don't think so now. 

A generation later, yes I spanked my kids.  Most people did back in the 60s and 70s.  It was a part of parenting.  It was a way to control their behaviour and teach them right from wrong.  Was it right?    My daughter recently said, "Mom, today that would have been considered child abuse."   She was not being critical.  She knows that I loved her and her brother, and that I was doing my best.   But when I see how gentle, understanding, kind she is when dealing with her children - I know that she is doing a better job.   I know that, even when my grandchildren are acting up and I think "A good swat on the backside would settle that one down."  

Child rearing isn't easy.  We need to look for balance.  And we need to support one another.  

Thank you, Seeler. 

I started with Wondercafe on day 1.  That was a the hardest post I've ever made, because of the passion I have for children, and the passion I have for parents.   Be gentle with one another.

i think that what we are seeing right now is the very logical swing of the pendulum from the days when children were considered your property, and you could pretty much do whatever you wanted to them without fear of reprisal.  i remember as a child we had a place in my basement where my friend, who lived next door, could come and hide whenever her father would get wound up and start beating up his family.  calling the police??  that wasn't even an issue... we all just knew that it happened, and so we  took the necessary precautions to try and minimize the damage. 

today, that situation would be handled COMPLETELY differently.... that pendulum has swung to the other side now, and we are at a time when laying a hand on your child in anger is met with very harsh punisment for the parent.

there is a happy medium here, i'm sure... and we will find it.  but right now, imho, we are still in a dangerous time for kids here... my generation of parents were the ones who were spanked on a pretty regular basis, so the only way we know how to raise kids is to abuse them.  i think that if we keep on working hard, my childrens generation will reach that happy medium, where the parents who are able to discipline their kids without violence will outnumber the rest. 

wonderful wisdom Birthstone, seeler & sighsnootles ... I love that you are all here.

(aside to seeler - I'll eat your carrots if you'll take my liver & brussel sprouts!  I spent hours at the table too - not enough ketchup in the world to get those things down.)

(aside back to carolla - I'll gladly eat the liver - I love it if it is cooked right.  But you can keep the brussel sprouts.  It would be a toss up between them and carrots - which would make me gag first.  Fortunately I don't remember my mother ever cooking them.  Boiled cabbage was ok with a bit of butter and vinegar - although I preferred coleslaw.)

seeler, yet another thing we have in common.  i love liver too.  my grandmother used to marinate it in milk.  my sister in law marinates it in gingerale.  as for the brussell sprouts, i remember my dad carrying me from the table fast asleep because i would not be excused from the table until i ate them.  to my horror, they showed up on my plate the next night for dinner.  i think i had worn my parents down by that point, because i was finally excused without having to eat them.

as for carrots, i love them.  i'll take those too :)

Perhaps there are some ways that parents force their wishes upon children that are as bad as the occasional slap.  

While I think my daughter is far too lenient in preparing separate meals for a six year old boy (today he is going to a birthday party and she is carrying along a granola bar for him in case they serve pizza) I do think making a child sit at the table until they gag or fall asleep - and then serving the same food the next night - borders on abuse.  

How about, "If you don't think you like carrots, try just a bit.  Then you can leave them on your plate, and eat the rest of the meal.  But don't expect anything else until supper."      And if they don't like the entire meal, it probably won't hurt them to go hungry until the next meal, when it might be something they like.  

it did border abuse, but like you've said, maybe between the hard of the past and the soft of the present we can find a happy medium.

as for the food thing in our house, i try and make things i know they will eat and try to often throw in something new for them to try.  we never force feed, for the simple fact that we have taught them that they have control over their bodies.  i have told them that their mouth and ears are a "private" area along with the other well known "privates".  i'm hoping that it will empower them and teach them that no one can force them to do anything with their bodies against their will.  they make the choice.  food is also a battle i don't find necessary.  my control is what i serve.  i also find that they are willing to try anything since they know they won't be forced to eat it if they don't like it.  i don't make seperate meals, although my husband will give in to them wth a bowl of rice krispies and milk before bed when i'm not looking. 

There seem to be plenty of people in the 'mature' age group who have sat staring at some food they thought was gross.  How did you handle this topic with your own children?  I used to give then some of everything and it had to be eaten if they wanted dessert.  If it was a new food they got a mere taste and knew they could ask for more if they liked it.  If it was something they claimed they didn't like they only got a taste (one pea!).  Even then one child rarely got dessert - and still doesn't like cooked vegetables.  Of course this means she rarely cooks veggetables at her house so her children pig out on them when they eat with me.

for my kids and foster kids, the rule is that you only get snacks or dessert if you finish your meal.  the kids know this.   i found that it only took one or two times where everyone was enjoying a popsicle on a hot afternoon but them before they realized i was serious about this... there would be one episode of fierce crying, and then it was over. 

this even works with my neices and nephews.  like i said, once they know you are serious and not going to give in, mealtime becomes a much easier affair for everyone. 

this is only for food, though... i would never withhold water or juice on a hot day!!