and mom had taken 2 siblings to school leaving him in the house. He went outside and door locked and couldn't get back in.

He was taken to hospital and was fine.

Mom has been charged under child protective services-with endangering a child.

So how common is this-I had a neighbour who did this while she took others to school, at work we had to report a parent for leaving child sleeping while taking others to school.

What's your experience? What do you think?

 How long was she actually going to be gone for?  A 4 year old is pretty young to be left alone, but the same thing could have happened while the mom took a shower.  I'm sure my sister and I were left alone at times for a few minutes before we were legally old enough.  It wouldn't have been for long, but my mom might have picked up one of us from the bus stop or gone over to the neighbours for a little bit.

The four year old was alone (outside) for an hour.

This could of had tragic consequences.

My  mother-in-law was a farming woman. Once her husband , and the neighbour had gone to help somwhere with harevest (for pay). MiL took care of the neighbours cows for a small fee.

One day, a bull was in with the neighbours cows. By the time she took the bull home, milked neighbours cows and got home she had been gone quite awhile.

Her 18 month old and 8 month old were sitting on the step waiting for her. The toddler lifted the baby out of his crib. all was well but the potential for grave harm is there.

By law the moment you leave the property with a 4 year old home alone you are in violation.  (The same thing is true of leaving the child in a vehicle while you run in to check mail or pay for gas technically)

Could it have happened when the parent was home?  Obviously -- such things have happended before.  But the charge is to be expected in this case.

  (The same thing is true of leaving the child in a vehicle while you run in to check mail or pay for gas technically)

at least they now have 'pay at the pump' so we are not stuck in this predicament. I am very grateful to not have to march three kids into a gas station just to pay for gas.

Its an old problem - how far away can the parents (or caregivers) be and for how long.  Can you work in the garden, hang out the clothes, or visit with a neighbour on the front step while the kids are sleeping or watching TV?   A few years ago in this province a little boy was mauled to death by two playful big dogs while his father and a couple of buddies were frigging around with a TV. 

An hour away seems to be a long time - five minutes to run the kids to school, or down to the bus stop seems reasonable.   What about 15 or 20 minutes?   Never leave the property - you're sitting on the front steps.  Your baby is sleeping in his crib inside with the window open so you can hear him.  Your 4 year old is riding her bike up and down the sidewalk.  Two driveways down she falls and hurts herself.  Do you run to the girl?  Of course you do. 

I'm glad that the child in question was found in time and that the incident is being looked into.

The area has more leeway, is more strict, more vague... than one might think according to the Criminal Code of Canada and is a case by case thing.

http://www.oacas.org/childwelfare/faqs.htm#alone

http://www.preventchildabuse.ca/LinkClick.aspx?link=resources%2FSupervision+Guidelines.pdf&tabid=74&mid=621

http://www.todaysparent.com/lifeasparent/article.jsp?content=20060306_125605_5180&page=1

The charges laid were non-criminal SG. They were laid under Child Protective services.

A neighbour would often run over with her baby monitor when doing the pschool pickup of her eldest. Baby was asleep at home. Sometimes the toddler stayed with me as well. ( I was home on Thurs)

Well once when she came back we realized I had the baby monitor but her house was locked. I could have heard the wee one if he woke but not been able to go in!

Thankfully he slept for the 1/2 hour!

 An hour for a four year old is a long time.  If it was only going to be 10 minutes, I don't know it's a grey area.  Maybe if I have kids of my own I'll have a stronger opinion.

My personal view?  Children are children - very young people.  They need adults to gaurd them from dangers, protect them from things they don't fully understand.  Leaving them totally alone is dangerous to the point of being possibly life threatening. 

I didn't leave my children 'totally' unsupervised until they were about twelve.  A few times I popped across the road to the corner store - I could see the house all the time.  Sometimes I was in the garden and they were in the house (or vice versa).  I did all the normal things like showering - but not if it meant I had to leave an awake  baby loose on the floor.    I wouldn't leave in the car, even for five minutes, leaving little ones alone in the house.  That five minutes can easily turn into an hour or so if you have a fender bender or car trouble.  My fear about going out and leaving little ones sleeping is that no one would know they were there if there was a fire or something. As this case in Edmonton shows, children can quickly get into a situation they can't handle. 

 I don't think its a grey area.

A child should not be left alone at home.  No exceptions.

Can the child be inside and you are outside?  It happens but again, the child should n't be inside watching tv if the parents are outside doing chores.  He should be outside playing or helping.

A 4 year old or a baby even, is not that difficult to toss into a car seat for a short drive to school.

The issue here is the "what if" factor.  What if you have car trouble?  What if the child wakes up and leaves to look for you?  What if the child gets in to the knives or cleaners or any other potential dangers?  What if the child chokes on something?  What if there is a gas leak?  What if there is a burglary?  What if you are killed in an accident?  What if you simply can't get home in the 5 minutes that you think it's going to be?  Yes, under ideal circumstances...perhaps under even most expected circumstances...a 4 year old could be left alone for a few minutes while asleep or watching tv, but things happen all the time that mess with our plans.  We know from experience that there will always be the heavy traffic or bad weather or accident or flat tire that occasionally makes us late for work.  We know that despite the best laid plans, stuff happens.  Whenever that stuff is potentially bad stuff and especially when it can happen to a small, defenseless child, the answer is to ALWAYS err on the side of caution.

My point was that it is not clear cut in the Criminal Code.

I could say I would never, ever, under any circumstances leave a child alone. I would also be a hypocrite and a liar. I have had two sleeping children inside a car. I have carried one in the house and left the other in the car to come back for. I have went inside the house when the phone rang and watched out a window. I have had one child sleeping and had another I carried to the apartment next door to get Tylenol, with a monitor to hear if they woke up.

I have also enountered times when they were safer alone and the risk posed by strangers than being left with someone at home. I have also encountered times people could say "abandoned" when it was not like that. Examples from my past: A woman who left her children in the car rather than take them in and ask their father to watch them when he took the car keys and she fled down the street and phoned police and was later sheltered. A woman who left her children in a library, while she went to the house and grabbed clothes to call a shelter.

If I had to leave them and could not take them and had a choice between letting them alone in their own bed asleep for one to five minutes or asking the neighbour who could be anyone. I can also see someone likely choosing alone, especially someone scarred.

I have chosen to leave one in the car while I carried another in, rather than let the intoxicated carry them. 

Now, leaving one to walk other kids to school... I can say I wouldn't. I would hope I wouldn't have to.

Yet, part of me knows, that it is not that simple sometimes.

People do not have money for sitters. People do not have family or friends nearby.... There is nobody to turn to. There is also often no organization or provincial thing...  There is no safety net. What do you do? Yes, it is a better option to wake them, dress them and take everyone. Yet, I know how hard it can be getting who absolutely needs ready ready and when adding mroe would be unmanageable. If the choice is wake them all, get so stressed you smack someone, or let them sleep... what then?

I will see what this woman has to say for herself, how long she planned on being gone, what exactly happened, what her options were, what took so long.....

Yet, even if I disagree with her vehemently,  I am not prepared to judge all those who leave a child by that yardstick. It will be about her choices, her safeguards...

To me, there is a difference when it is five minutes versus when it is hours. There is, for me, a difference when it is to go start the car and when it is to go score. So, I will wait and see.

The Criminal Code says case by case and I agree.

SG - you speak of real life situations.  In theory it is easy to say and definitely true NO CHILD SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE.  Lastpointe - you say that a child shouldn't be left in the house while the parents are doing chores in the yard - that the child should be outside playing or helping.  But perhaps ourside with the parents busy doing chores he might run out on a busy highway, or if on a farm get through the fence to where the bull is pastured, or get hit by a flying rock from the lawn mower.  Maybe in the house sitting on the chesterfield watching TV is the safest place for him.

I had two toddlers (perhaps 3 1/2 and 2 1/2) playing in the driveway while I hung out clothes.  I looked up and they were gone.  A few minutes frantic searching found them riding their foot operated little blue engine and horsey around the block.  A scary moment.

And while it might be easy to grab up a baby from the crib and take her with you while you run up to the corner to meet the school bus - but what about the 3 year old twins playing in the rec room - snowsuits, boots, mittens, for a five minute run.  I think many a harried parent might opt to leave them where they are - and maybe justify it because dad worked the night shift and is sleeping in the next room. 

Ideal vs real life.   Who can be on duty 24/7 for ten years?  Or does the best of us slip up once in awhile.  Especially if it is a single parent, more than one small child, and no money for relief help.   Parents who are doing the very best they can don't need to be made feel guilty.

seeler, thanks for adding real stories.

You mentioned a dad sleeping in another room. It reminded me of many years. My ex and I, both women, both had to work full-time to make ends meet. We also could not afford sitters. We had no good list of volunteers.

She made $2.13 an hour plus tips (BTW in the US $2.13 rule is if you make $30 or more a month in tips) So, she worked at a small place on a day shift she could not work nights with kids) and made $2.13 an hour and maybe $5-15 more a day in tips. I made $5.25 an hour. Her ex sometimes paid child support of $250 a month.

Paying a sitter $2-3 an hour was completely out of the question.  The only people we would not have had to pay was my mom (who abused her own children), my sister (an addict), their dad (who was arrested driving drunk with both of them in the car once at 10 am)

Money was tight, based just on wages, but all medical bills for two young kids came out of pocket, because we did not have medical insurance. I did, but was not permitted to add any of them to my policy because we were a same-sex couple in the US.

So, we worked opposite shifts. I worked midnights, coming home by 8 am. I slept until noon and grabbed another hour or two in the evenings if I could. It meant when she left for work to start at 11 a.m. I was already asleep.

We had tried me staying awake during the day, I was not able to stay awake the whole time until she came home. For one year, neither kid was in school all day. Every morning, for the first year they spent a little over an hour without supervision. The oldest went to afternoon kindergarten (it was all that was available). I took her when I woke up. Then, she went to school all day the next year and the youngest was at home for about an hour (he too went into afternoon kindergarten).  They were up, fed, dressed (by mom). The TV was on and they had a cooler with what they were allowed to have between breakfast and lunch. The bedroom door was never closed. They knew I was right there. They knew the rules, the house door did not get opened and the stove or toaster or nothing got used...

I wish there had been other options, that it was not necessary. It was.

People only know because I am saying so. They usually only know when something goes terribly wrong.

If folks feel charges were in order or foster care would have been better, well.... I don't have anything I can say.

 I don't agree seeler.

I have had kids that I needed to take with me and I did.  It is just about planning and being organised.

When out in the yard and a baby is asleep them baby monitors do the trick.  But you are still home.

AS to kids watching tv instead of playing or chores.

Sorry i dont' agree.  There is no way that watching tv is better than playing or doing chores with the family.  It teaches kids that family life is about helping.

Are there familes where the outside is dangerous. Of course  THose who live on water or farms live with the daily knowledge that life can be full of danger.  But those kids learn early that there are rules to follow

There is no way i can condone a mom leaving a child at home while she drove another child to school.  Always a child can be put in a car for the trip  Is it a pain.  Sure.  But it is life.

 My husband and I have brief words about this time and again. He is much more lackadaisical than I am with this stuff. Like letting Baby Boy sleep in the car while the car is in the parking spot outside our door (Note I didn't say DRIVEWAY)  and he is near bye.  He thinks I am a bit of a worrymonger but ahem..."That is why they call them ACCIDENTS". Or he wants to take Baby for a walk while the girls are outside playing in the back with their friends.  He gets annoyed when I say 'NO you can't just leave the complex grounds without making sure there is an adult in charge for them to go to if needed. And they know it and the ADULT knows it." We have been caught in that position ourselves, when the  friend is visiting and heads home only to find Mom went somewhere   Suddenly we're babysitting, and we are supposed to be going somewhere ourselves.

A question that used to bother me when my children were young.  If my eight year old jumps on his bike and heads out with his friends to play ball at the school yard a few blocks away, can I take my younger child up to the corner store to pick up some things, or just out for a walk, or even over to a neighbour's for a cup of coffee?   At that age I don't expect him to stay in his own back yard or accompany me on errands, nor do I expect to take my young child away from playing with her friends to follow him to the park to make sure he is supervised. 

a gal I work with occasionally leaves herunable to stand child in the playpen while the oldest is walked downstairs and 2 houses to catch the school bus for Kindergarten. Would I do that?

I think not but then those weren't my circumstances.

I did leave my baby-quite often asleep in the car-in his seat-in the garage with the car door open and the door into the house opened.

He'd often wak up just when it was time to reload his sister in the car to get the oldest from kindergarten. (I did move houses and cities as 3rd was born)

And yes when I lived in Inuvik I lefy my 2 nad 4 year old buckled in the running car while I got the mail. (For the record Inuvik had NO car theft ever-it took 1.5 days to drive oout and only 1 road.

I couldn't manage the 2 and 4 year old and my pregnant belly up and down the slippery stairs ooutside in minus 40, Or at least I didn't want to. when we got home to our house I did take them up one at a time.

When I was seven, I was expected to stay at home and keep out of trouble for 2 1/2 hours a day til mom got home from work. I also made my own lunch at noon.

Threat of violence (carried out occasionally) worked I guess. I survived.

 For those of you who say never leave a kid alone, what age do you mean?

I also disagree about letting a kid stay inside while the parents are outside.  I was left inside a lot to read a book or something when my asthma was bad.  Sometimes I would be forced inside because I would start wheezing after running around with friends.  Other times I would be quite content with a book.

I think that was the same reason for one of us being left at home and the other driven to the bus stop.  The cold air could trigger an asthma attack, no sense in doing so by forcing one of us to walk or force the other to get into a car if it wasn't necessary.  I don't know remember the exact ages, but I'm sure it was under 10.

chemgal - your comments about one child walking to the bus stop while the other was driven brought a story to my mind.  It was years ago.  There was only one high school in the city and no school buses.  Kids, even those living on te opposite side of the river and a couple of miles away, had to find their own way to and from school by public transit or more likely by walking or begging rides from someone going that way. 

One family who lived on the wrong side of the river had twin boys.  One was sickly from birth - the other strong and healthy.  Almost everybody knew this - they remembered times of hospitalization, of prayers, of touch and go - and for someone new in town or the school could find out if they wanted to know.   But parent teach interviews came up and the mother visited the classrooms where she was confronted by a new teacher:  

"Mrs. Smith - can you tell me why John always has money for the bus, and Jim always has to walk?"

The mother replied, "Because each morning I give John some money and tell him, 'You take the bus over and back.'  Then I turn to Jim and say, "You can walk."

By the way, Jim had no problem with this.  He knew his brother wasn't strong, while he rather enjoyed meeting his friends and walking the bridge together despite the cold and wind.

There is a huge possibility for being "your sisters keeper" for christian outreach.

I have had those rules for not leaving my child alone until I got divorced. Luckily, my son was already 10 by then. But I noticed how my principles got blurry at the edges. How you get tired when you carry the parenting fulltime and let go of some things you maybe shouldn't have. Suddenly, I had a different view of the single mother across the street, whose pre- teenagers were hanging out in town all day in the summer, when she had to work, and took turns"visiting" the neighbours to get a free lunch until they got tired of them or caught them stealing money.....

mrs.anteater - an old saying in my part of the world is "never criticize another until you have walked a mile in his shoes".   Meaning, of course, that we cannot understand the what and why of a person until we have been in their situation.  While we might have an idea of what the ideal should be, sometimes it is just not realistic. 

Which does not change the fact that leaving a child of the age in the story alone is against the Child Welfare Act in every province for a reason.  DOes it get enforced on a case-by-case bais?  YEs, if eople are doing their jobs properly.   But it is still unsafe, for all the reasons mentioned in the thread.

Same is true for the "enforcement" of God's law. It's missing manpower.

We can likely all agree this child was in danger in cold temperatures wearing no coat, etc...

There is a difference however in having that strong opinion and then presenting it as clear and obvious fact or as is being done, as "the law".

The Child and Family Services Act , the relevant law in Ontario, does not identify an age when a child can be left alone. So, if in Ontario, saying age alone decides it is then inaccurate.

Saying it applies in every province would be also incorrect.

It goes further than that.

Where does age alone decide this? 

The relevant law in B.C. is the Child, Family and Community Service Act.
In B.C, the law says that being absent from home in circumstances that endanger the child's safety or well-being.

Alberta's Child, Youth and Family Enhancement Act has nothing that specifies AGE. It mentions unsafe conditions.

http://www.programs.alberta.ca/Living/9281.aspx?N=770+9252&id=1765

In Ontario, it would be that they are absent without making provisions for his/her care or supervision.

There is also no harmonized legislation in Canada applying no matter what province you are in.  

For those wondering, we personally  broke no laws in Texas with our own children. There was/is no age by law. For our folks in the US, here is the latchkey ages for the US

http://www.latchkey-kids.com/latchkey-kids-age-limits.htm

Just for the record I live in Edmonton. When I separated  i called social services and asked them at what age I could leave a child at home ? (I wanted to ensure my ex couldn't try to get custody)

The answer was that it varies but a mature 10 year old may be ok and 11 was generally ok. It made no difference if they were home alone or watching siblings. It also didn't matter if they were watching siblings or being paid to babysit others. So 11 was ok for "short time periods-not overnight" and that was the guideline I used. They got a key to the house in grade 6.

In fact I often grocery shopped at night after they were asleep. Bedtime was 8,  Safeway was open 'till midnight. Oldest was 11.

Well, the child shouldn't have been left alone... the circumstances surrounding why he was left outside are understandable. And without a coat, MY GOODNESS *rolls eyes*. Have we EVER heard a child say "I'm too cool to we wrapped up in a coat"... good grief.

Welcome to the board just_dance71!

I'm constantly arguing with kids at work about their coats these days.

Child: "I don't wanna wear a coat."

Me: "But it's cold outside."

Child: "I'm hot."

Me: "You're hot right now because you're inside, you'll be cold when you get out there."

Child: "No I won't"

Me: "PUT YOUR COAT ON NOW!"

Child: "Why?"

Me: "BECAUSE I SAID SO!"

Ah just dance-welcome-I suspect wee child was left inside while mom did the school run. He slipped out and door locked behind him. Given the weather that day outcome could have been tragic. A passerby saw him while she was waiting for a bus. She called police. Child was warmed up.

It so wasn't about not wanting to wear a coat.