Amen to that...I still think church is a vital part of our relationship with God, but it's not what makes THE relationship...more of a support group for me

" Support group" is a good way to look at it. And think, too, of how many go to church faithfully, but, might be hypocritical.

The purpose of the, "church," is to build community and fellowship amongst christians, to help focus good works within the community, and to help educate us about God. It is not a nesecary tool for worship, but a very nice and useful way to worship. My favourite part is the hymns!

Annne,

Hi,

You wrote:

"We can have faith without attending Church regularly."

Which is true. Just as it is true I can have friends and not spend every moment of the day with them. I can probably still keep those friends if I see them for an hour every week, maybe even at a rate of an hour every two weeks.

Heck, they'll still be my friends if I only see them on Christmas Eve and Easter Sunday morning right?

And if it is faith in a thing like that maybe the Leafs will win the Stanley Cup I can continue to believe in that for almost four decades without the Leafs actually winning it can't I?

If I have faith in a person or even a personal God how can I increase the value of that relationship if I avoid the things that God cares about?

It may very well be true that the typical congregation of any Christian church is full of crazies or hypocrites. Everyone still has a special place in God's heart, just as I suspect you or I do.

So, wouldn't my relationship with God deepen if I spent time with God's family and made an effort to love them as much as I suspect God loves me?

To do that I can't avoid them so one hour a week is probably the least I could do.

It isn't hard to find a quiet beautiful place and bask in the glory of God's creation. It is something even more special to sit in the midst of a congregation of broken and hurting people and know that each and everyone is loved by the same God that puts together quiet and beautiful places.

John

John:

Anne could have YOUR faith if she did those things.

But can Anne have her faith and not go to church?

Yup.

Drink Guiness. Jesus would have.

Peace

MadMonk:

Hi,

I don't disagree with you but I feel slightly misrepresented. I didn't deny Annne's faith but I did question the vibrancy of it.

Put another way.

Sure one can have faith and not attend church regularly. How long can that state of affairs last?

I don't know. I suspect some could last longer than others. I don't believe any of us could go indefinitely without.

I don't think one can grow in one's faith without attending church regularly and it really is the definition of what constitutes 'regular' that might be at the core of things. Are we talking once a week, month, year, decade generation or lifetime?

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to clarify. I hope it helps.

John

Don't forget you can also be good without ever setting foot in a church too.

The bonus here is that you get your sundays free and never have to play a tambourine in your life!!

I actually agree with both of you.

Being deliberate in expressing my faith in community

AND

I really don't like tambourines, either.

Atheisto,

Hi.

You are right. One doesn't need to attend church to be good. But is being good in and of itself enough?

Of course in the United Church of Canada you can attend all your life and never be required to touch or hear a tambourine. Which I give thanks for every Sunday.

John

Well it depends if you think we have a purpose here beyond simply existing.

What about a triangle?

What about the commandment to keep the Sabboth Holy? Sure, I suppose if you are on an island you can do your best by yourself, but sitting on a park bench contemplating creation is a slippery slope to Sunday NFL games all day long. Christ said that where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I. So why are we really seriously considering all this going solo stuff for Sunday worship?

Sunday's are for shopping...I thought everyone knew that?

I'm, 27, a Christian, a FIRM believer in Christ and I have been to church only a handfull of times in my life. My father did not take us to church because the church has become corrupt to a fault. I'm not saying ALL churches are bad, but more than enough of them are. On Sundays we read the Bible, together, as a family and discussed our beliefs.

Maybe I'm just crazy, but wasn't there this guy who said that a "church" is any place in which you pray? Who got seriously irritated when people were selling stuff in his temples, and who began giving his sermons surrounded by nothing but some friends who believed he was the Messiah?

Who's to say your faith is stronger than mine because you go to church once a week for an hour.

I would be a hypocrite if I said no. Unfortunately I have been a hypocrite in the past because I used to think that was true. I have not been to church in about 7 months. This after attending church twice on Sundays for the last 9 years! I was almost afraid not to go. However...I still love God, I still am a good person, I still have faith, I still love to worship Him.......hmm makes you think eh?

Dear Bellarin, I really don't think its a debate about whose faith is stronger or better. We're trying to decide if going to Church is an important manifestation of your faith and if going helps you and/or the Church Community that we are part of.

I went to the mall once after church and I thought, "These people are getting something from this, but what?" (referring to the fact that most of them didn't go to church.)

I'm still wondering what.

In a world where there is no point to selfless behavior and sacrifice, a most important end of man is to consume. That's what they're doing.

Kinda like the message from the Matrix, eh?

Sure Anne, back in the old days there were monks who lived their lives in solitude . Plus, remember, Jesus did His preaching outside.

MadMonk, you seem to draw a lot of inspiration from Star Wars and Matrix plots.

Mad Monk....those people in the mall probably "got" their groceries after a week of working.

In a secular country if we're going to have one holy day please can we have them all? Then I'll only have a 4 day working week at the most.

I am new to this discussion this but as a spiritual wanderer of churches I have definitely come to the conclusion that you can have faith without church, what exactly is church anyway? If we are in community with jesus or a deeper personal connector faith is there. Now, the community of a church may help in social situations and this United Church of mine certainly has something for everyone but not necessarily are they all about faith. I think the journey can be made without church.

I noticed in this discusion that Athiesto seemed to alter the question to- does one need to attend church to be good. I thought the question was about faith. Faith and goodness are very different things. Faith is a thing we have or do not have. Good is something we are, or are not. We can have faith and go to church every day and not be good in our acts. One can never set foot in a church or know faith in our lives, but still do good things and therefore be good.

Atheisto,

Hi,

You wrote:

"Well it depends if you think we have a purpose here beyond simply existing."

I think you are right about that.

Then you asked:

"What about a triangle?"

As much as I enjoyed watching Martin Short (as Ed Grimly) play the triangle on Saturday Night Live it just doesn't translate into what I hope my worship experience will be.

John

(Hebrews 10:24) Let us be concerned for one another, to help one another to show love and to do good.

(Hebrews 10:25) ****Let us not give up the habit of meeting together****, as some are doing. Instead, let us encourage one another all the more, since you see that the Day of the Lord is coming nearer.

Where do you meet then?

Luke 21:1-6 - most ministers start pushing that passage when they're asking for cash. You know: don't give just from your abundance. But they kind of overlook the last two verses. Jesus points out the stones of the temple. When luke wrote these words, Rome had already ground the temple to dust. So the point was obvious to his early readers: don't give from your need if you're giving to a useless enterprise.

A reason for going to church is to take an active part in ensuring that it never becomes a useless enterprise. It will feel like a pile of rubble if you sit on the margins. You are the church! Church is like play dough. Give it shape. Not just as an auditorium for spiritual experiences or as a place to meet people, but also as a presence in the world, a presence that is a force for positive social change. It is here that religion dovetails with church - church as social change becomes the form that gives expression to the values that your religion feeds.

If the "Church" is about asking for cash, one should not attend it, we are to give out of want and love, not out of obligation.

I have not been to church in a while,, around 6 months.. the last time was for my dad's baptism at a non-denominational church when I was on holiday visiting family.

I have a strong belief in jesus and the father, and every other day me and my partner take the bible, read a passage and discuss it, then pray after. During that time we feel closer to god than during our every day lives. that is our church. I live in a small town with mostly hypocritical strongly catholic people, same with the family around me here, and i don't know but i feel like i probaby have a stronger relationship with god than most of them do. valueing the teachings of christ above tradition and meeting others is a good way to live your life to me.

Hear hear....but if you don't put anything on the donation plate for Father Dougal's coke habit then I will send you to hell.

I've already blogged on this, but my grandfather used to work outdoors alot, and THAT to him was his place of worship. God was in nature and that was where he spent every Sunday. I like the way he thought :)

NoWonder, I was referring to the rev's earlier comment on the "vibrancy" of anne's faith. Which is horsepoooop.

Bellarinn,

Hi,

Sorry about not responding earlier. I wasn't even aware you were directing comments my way.

This format for discussion needs serious tweaking.

Anyway you wrote:

"I was referring to the rev's earlier comment on the "vibrancy" of anne's faith. Which is horsepoooop."

I agree with NoWonder about the 2 or three gathered in Christ's name.

I certainly never intended to put forward a definition of church so narrow that it could only include a large building and a pipe organ. My apologies if that is how I came across.

I am going to stand by the vibrancy remark though.

Going about faith on your own just doesn't work especially when we have to deal with the heavy stuff that life throws at us. People are not designed to be alone. Some people can pull off solitude but most crack.

I expect Annne would be able to thrive for a season on her own faith wise. If she always remained alone I wouldn't expect her or anyone to do as well.

She may not need a big old building with wooden pews and a pipe organ but she does need other people and it is people that make a church not bricks and mortar.

John

At one time going to church represented nothing more than an onerous time waisting duty. When I was no longer obliged to go, I stopped going. After a few years I went back one Sunday and was deeply moved - by the hymns - the liturgy, the sermon, the friendly welcome of the people. I came back again - and again. Most of all I felt a growing sense of God's love for me and my love for God. This might not have happened if I had not returned - or maybe it would in some other way, who knows. But because my sense of God has developed by going to Church I feel indebted to the Church and it's various ministries. Because I have benefited, I want others to benifit, and for that to happen I feel a need to give in it's support.
By going to church my concern for issues such as justice and peace have been awakened as has my social conscience to enhance the community around me.From being part of a Church I have learned that I have become part of something important - to God and the world God created - what would food banks, women's shelters, foodgrains bank, children's aid, fight against poverty and other community and world charitable institutions do without the church. It is something far bigger and widereaching than I am, but at least I feel privileged to be a small part of it. There is a certain dignity about being able to give to something you believe in. It says that we are not simply takers but we are givers.

i dont know if anyone has posted this yet..but its something i think is relevant to weigh into things..

(Heb 10:23-25) 23 Let us hold fast the public declaration of our hope without wavering, for he is faithful that promised. 24 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, 25 not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.

notice..NOT FORSAKING the fathering of ourselves together...

so yeah 2 or 3 even is a gathering of christs brothers, but within reason usually more the merrier, i know my congregation has about 100 ppl, and we meet multiple times a week, and then once in smaller groups with only 10-15... i know them all by name, and love them all very much

the christian congregation is amazing, if your not part of one your missing out :-)

(Pr 27:17) 17 By iron, iron itself is sharpened. So one man sharpens the face of another.

we NEED each other in these last days more then ever to keep up the 'fine fight of the faith'

If you define "having faith" as believing in God, even the devil believes in God. He just doesn't obey His commandments - like keeping the Lord's day holy and he also chooses (like many today) not to worship God.

When a person makes God their first priority, then they will want not only to worship Him on their own time (outside of a church assembly, service, Mass, prayer/communal gathering), they will also want to worship him collectively with other Believers on a regular basis. But maybe one reason why people lapse and choose not to worship collectively on a regular basis, is because they do not have a daily personal intimite relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

What is the purpose of worshipping together? Its not just about fellowship or a feel good experience. Where I worship, God feeds us with the Word of God and gives us life; we receive the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ, so that we may have His life in us. There is nothing more important on this planet, than being fed with the Bread of Life.

What does the Lord require of me.....

We go to church to share God not to find Her and She expects more.

If we are talking about living right with God, we have 6 days to do good work and practice good discipleship. On the seventh day, we need to recharge and reflect on how we did in the 6 days prior and discern what we hope to do in the next week. Attending church isn't the objective, it is one of the marks of discipleship.

Wayne Muller wrote a book called 'Sabbath' that is just wonderful.

And walk humbly with your Lord....

Life is good.

I guess I think it's not just about what we believe, nor is it all about being "good" (and who defines "good" for us?), but rather about being faithful in community. Yes, I can have wonderful moments of worship in solitude, and I can pray daily, and I can read the Bible on my own, but my faith community helps me to understand what I'm reading, and challenges me to think in new ways, and helps me to know what it means to live my faith, giving opportunities to do that along the way through the life and work of the church. My community of faith helps me discover the gifts God has given me, and how to use them in combination with the gifts God has given others to engage in God's mission in the world. And should I encounter a crisis in my life, my community of faith will be there for me, to support me and remind me of my faith, or pray for me when I'm not able to pray myself. It's all part of being part of the "Body of Christ." That's why I think going chruch is important. Besides all that, worship in community can be wonderful!

I feel that when I was a younger believer I really needed to go to church to hear and get taught the Word and to get together with other believers at different levels of faith . I needed to be around other people to see that we all have struggles and difficulties and all need help. I really enjoyed the worship and the fellowship. But now that I am middle aged (ecck) I find that my faith is strong now without getting together with believers and God is my main leader and director in building my faith.I am more willing to look outside of "church" and my faith to find what is lacking in my spiritual life. However I still really rejoice and enjoy in worshipping together. Worshipping listening to a cd or alone simply doesnt cut it for me. Worship is something that must be done in mutual community.

Hi for me attending church gives me that sense of extended family. I have done and said both that I don`t need to go to believe and have faith which is true. What you don`t get by not attending is the support of others. When someone asks me how I am in our congregation I truly get the feeling they care. When I am asked at work and not saying all people who don`t go to church are like this but before I can answer they are talking to the next person or agreeing with my feelings I have not even shared yet.

I find also a big part of the experience for me is the music and we happen to have an extremely musical group of people.

Having said this my wife and I are co chairs of Pastoral Care and have been attending workshops on comtemplative forms of worship for those who may not be able to attend on a Sunday or may not want the traditional service. I talk to many people who are looking for something maybe something a little different.

Nameste

Richard

I think the name of this post should actually be "Church vs. Faith" not "Church vs. Religion." To me, they are the same.

I think that there is something that is missing in this thread. It's not all about "What do I get out of church that I can't get out of shopping?" Heaven forbid, it could technically include, "What can I give to others that I cannot give otherwise."

Sure you can have faith and spirituality without going to church. I did that but I was never tested. When I went to church, I was tested as to whether I truly could walk the Christian way or not. Sitting home alone, I thought I was perfectly good. Going to church, I found out I had work to do.

Why? Because it's not about "butt to pew"; it's about the day a young girl who had grown up in the church had tragically died and although many did not wish to be there, there was no other place they could be. No one else could understand that to which there is no understanding and also be sitting in a place where it was okay to feel and cry and hurt and scream and hate.

It is also about that pain turning into work and fellowship and caring and giving to help that family get through something that they could never get through alone.

It is about Remembrance Day where an old man's hand shakes and quivers and drops not only his poppy when trying to put it into a cross at the front of the church but 10 other poppies already put on the cross by parishioners. Perhaps in the street, this man would be laughed at but in this church, people offered words of encouragement and others threw their poppies at the foot of this cross too - purposefully to accompany the man's misfortune.

It is the place where faith meets real life: it is the place where faith grows and shrinks and is proven and nurtured and tested and wrecked and rebuilt.

Can that happen at home? With ONLY the circumstances involved that you "let in?" It's certainly not easy but it is simply a weekly hour long commitment to something other than yourself. And perhaps like those who helped rebuild that old man's confidence that day, you too could be a light that shines for others.

When my husband's dad died the day before my birthday, we were devistated. I had committments at Church and somehow managed to get through my tasks without falling to pieces. Someone heard that it was my birthday and had baked me some cupcakes. Another couple who had gone through the same thing took us home for supper that night, and we found a casserol on our back step when we got home (good thing it was winter!) The support didn't stop there, but we got so much because (I believe) that we had been giving support to others along the way, raising money for AIDS sufferors in Africa, helping distribute surplus food to low income housing residents, teaching Sunday School etc. Church can be a great source of energy, inspiring personal growth and social action, connecting with God and others. It, sadly, can also be hurtful - that happened to me and I moved on. I think I have touched more lives positively through God's grace than my grandmother who sat in her rocking chair and said she got connected to God in her flower bed. That was great for Grandma, but what about the people around her who needed support and could have given support in turn? God in the forest is good and inspiring, but as a team, we can accomplish more.

I agree that we can have faith without going to church regularly. The purpose of church for me, from a personal point of view, is to regularly refresh and nourish the many dimensions of faith. I left the church from age 13 to age 37. I am now 63 years old. Over the period of time when I was away my faith shrunk to nothing much more than an interesting topic of conversation. It had no real impact on my values, attitude, and motivation. Going to church regularly keeps the spiritual process that translates belief into conduct alive for me.

Ublin "“ I don't know how you managed to post twice (with added insight the second time) however it must have been spirit-driven - thanx. For me, to stay home with my faith (just me and God?) is somehow selfish and not why we were born to this world in this time and this place. I feel my life has a purpose and the church allows me to find the direction to that purpose.

Annne "“ I agree that, yes "we can have faith without attending church regularly" but for me it would be easily swamped by everyday life. The church keeps me focused on something other than myself.

There's a buddhist saying, "without the sangha you are like a tiger that has left the mountains and gone down to the lowlands." That is, without the support and reinforcement of the church, it's very easy to fall prey to the concerns of the world, or to just wander off into false doctrine / pseudo-religion of our own invention.

Then again, the church itself has gone off on some non-scriptural tangents over the centuries, some of which stand up to this day as dogma. I'm sure this always began with the best of intentions. To me, it says that the church and each of its members ought to think of one another as accountability partners. Yes, we will make mistakes, yes we will falter. Yes, sometimes the whole congregation may misstep together - this is part of the human condition. But we are safer together in this mountain than we are outside its shelter.

In church, we will see brokenness, and we may experience our own brokenness more deeply. That can be uncomfortable, but it's not a bad thing. It's just part of the process. The church is the body of Christ, who is a healer.

What is Church, we are suppose to be the Church, we are called to be the body of Christ which is the church. Therefore all Christians are suppose to be the true church. Church is what is in your heart as a Christian, not a brick building. When Christ comes back to gather his flock He's not going to collect up all of these buildings that have been put up by humans. He's coming for his Church. You can, if you chose, stay home and read your Bible and share with your family Bible verses and pray together and as far as I'm concerned that is church. But on the other hand it's also nice to go to a church and worship with others and sing and praise God and have bible studies and so on. But the Church as we know it today is not perfect, it's made up of humans that are not perfect and it is made up of tradtitions. I don't like the word religion, all I can think of when I hear the word religion is people who are caught up in the "law". I mean people who won't do certain things on Sunday because they are afraid it will send them to hell.We have a forgiving God, and if I hang out clothes on Sunday because I work nights I think God will forgive me for that.

I also agree with nascimento.

Hi Rev. John from Newfoundland

Mammas,
Your last line: "The church keeps me focused on something other than myself" is in my mind, exactly the point of going to church.

I think simply put, it is an organized group of like-minded individuals who "practice" the words of the Bible. And yes - not all churches are for all people which is why it is nice that there are many sorts of organized religions. My religion might not suit Joe and his religion might not suit mine but all (which do not infringe on our civil rights) are valid.

For those who aren't going but are wondering what can be gotten out of church? Someone was right when they said it is just a building. Church is like any other public place. It is what you put into church which will dictate what you get out. There are those who "get by" with butt to pew every Sunday or the occasional Sunday. They will receive spiritual guidance perhaps or maybe nothing at all. Or maybe that is all they need to fill their hearts. Who know?

There are those who partake and act. There can often be two or more groups who act and as in life, they may be opposed. But even with opposition, work is being done for the greater good and enlightenment is often a positive byproduct of power struggles in the church. Nothing is ever easy and neither is church.

Commitments don't seem to be a big priority for a lot of people nowadays. However, church is not a "Let's open the doors to all - willy nilly and see what the wind blows in." Church folk are just as guilty of being petty or demanding or expectant as everyone else and in truth, church folk like to see commitment from the parishioners just as much as you or I like to see hard work at our local Tim Horton's.

If people in general gave a little more and took a little less (Christian, churchgoers or otherwise) I do truly believe this world would be a better place.

Yes, you can have your faith without attending an organized church/group. But it is so much nicer to be with people that share your views where you can be completely yourself to learn and search.

:-)

Yes, you can have your faith without attending an organized church/group. But it is so much nicer to be with people that share your views where you can be completely yourself to learn and search.

:-)

I find church to be a waste of time. If you have something more important to do than hear the same stories that make you fall asleep every single week than you should do it. Church will always be there.