I don''t disagree and have never, or will ever, spank either of my kids. Although I have sometimes used the threat, my kids look at me slightly bemused and say "Dad, don''t be silly, you''d never spank us." And of course they''re right, and somehow that defuses whatever it was I was upset about and everything seems okay again. I know that I was spanked as a kid at home and got either the belt, or the slipper, or just a good old fashioned cuff around the ear from my teachers at school in England. That was the norm then and we knew the consequences if we crossed the line. And like every kid, testing the boundaries is what you do. I don''t believe that I ever suffered from low self-esteem as a kid, or do so now as a forty-something adult. So at the end of the day, is it wrong to spank kids? In today''s society, when we have learned to use other, non-physical ways to reprimand our kids, absolutely! Does it lower their self-esteem? I''m not sure about that one. If the abuse at home is systematic, then I would say definately! But in that circumstance, as you say, it goes well beyond a ''spank'' and should more accurately be called beating.

There is a difference between spanking and beating. But sometimes this difference is very hard to define. And to cross over the line between the two is very easy to do. And because of this matter either spanking should be banned or at the very least defined. For eg. is it ok to bruise a child while spanking it. Society should tell people who are for spanking what is allowed inside the definition of spanking.

As a child I often was spanked (could be because I did not listen very well) but in no way did this spanking affect my self esteem.

As of yet I am not a parent, but I believe spanking is ok, as long as it is not done in anger and that the child is not physically hurt such as unable to sit. But I also think spanking should be a last resort. After other punishment options did not work.

Spank your children. They aren't rational enough to understand long-term consequences of their actions.

i agree...didn't kill me to get spanked..and yes i have on occasion gave them a spanking...especially when they have been totally irrational...do my kids still love me ...they tell me everyday..and yes we have talked about it and even after the spankings ..the whys and if you ever do that agains.. All and all they were far and few between...However I would not spank after the age of 10 or so...especially since they are bigger than me..HAHA..no seriously cause they are a little better at beginning to understand consequences.

I haven't seen the ad campaign mentioned by the first poster, but I work in the child protection field and run across this issue constantly. I was also spanked as a child, as well as experiencing several other less-than-desirable parenting techniques, and I will say that spanking was not the one that sticks with me today; I don't feel that it permanently damaged my self esteem. Given the different child welfare situations I have seen, I would not say that spanking in and of itself is "abuse". However, having said that, I also know that there are an infinite number of more desirable and less harmful ways for parents to achieve the same results as spanking would, so why do it?

When I work with parents who admit to me that they spank, I always strongly recommend against it and let them know the paramaters that child welfare agencies (at least here in Ontario) have agreed upon as the limits: a "spank" crosses the line in any instance where a mark of any kind is left on the child; where an implement other than the parent's open hand is used to strike the child; where the child is older than 12 or younger than 2; and where the spanking is inflicted on any part of the child other than the buttocks or upper thighs. Seeing as most parents who spank do so out of frustration or anger, it's pretty difficult for them to keep all these "rules" in mind, and I would guess that more often than not the "line" is crossed.

I think the most important part of this issue is making sure that non-judgemental, easy to access information about functional, healthy parenting techniques is widely available to every parent, so that they have alternatives to spanking and know how to use them. This won't eliminate all spanking, but it will drastically reduce it, and eventually make it less socially acceptable than it still is today.

I fail to see how people can still justify spanking their children, and it disheartens me every time someone tries to tell me how it's 'okay' or a good thing. I was spanked as a child, and while I remember the physical pain and humiliation, I cannot remember why I was spanked - so much for saying it will help 'teach a lesson'.

Fear of physical harm is not an effective parenting tool. Taking the time to reinforce, discuss or redirect inappropriate behaviour is.

Wonder how all the pro spankers would feel if their spouse decided to take the same approach? It's wrong to physically harm an adult, but a child, still learning and growing, is fair game? Give it up, people. Abuse is abuse is abuse. And yes, if you smack your child in public near me, you can expect to hear a comment from me about it, too.

Spanking has become a topical issue of late. It is ranking up there with pre-marital sex....I mean that it is over rated!

nobody needs a busybody at a stressful moment like that.

If you are a church-goer, love thy neighbour.

You get a lot more done with honey than with sticks.

I fully agree with what Bert said.

And speaking as a child of the generation, give or take 10 years, of what many of you are referencing, I'd like to add in my own experiences with spanking.

I have been spanked once in my entire life. And it was half hearted, I do not support spanking at all as there are alternative ways to discipline and teach your child without using force against them, my parents knew and understood that so despite them growing up in homes and a society where cuffing and spanking (with wooden spoons, not just hands) was normal I never really had to experience any of it.

Part of that reason is because my mother has several diplomas towards early child hood education, and throughout her education learned of the many alternatives to force so common in her generation.

Spanking is hitting, it is physical abuse. In school today they teach us about the cycle of violence, one which many parents today are working very hard to eliminate. At the same time, many parents I believe feel there is no other way, because although we are now educated on what is wrong the education for what is right and how to do it is not so readibly available.

DMR is right. Young children are not rational enough to know why they shouldn't bolt out of mommy's grip and dart into the street, or why repeadedly taking knives out of Grandma's kitchen draw can bring disasterous consequenses. The only real time physical, non-verbal communication is required is in the cases of willful definance and in matters of safety. Spanking should never be done while visibly angry because you run the risk of mixing your messages. Once a child is old enough to understand the consequenses of their inappropriate behavior the only remaining reason to spank is willful defiance which, if left unchecked, undermines parental authority. Parental authority is vital in discharging our responsibilities as the primary educators of our children and in ensuring their safety and well being.

I've heard the argument many times about young children not being able to understand the consequences of their actions, and therefore "needing" to be spanked in order to make an impression on them and keep them safe. I've had good friends of mine (who are, by the way, good and loving parents who just make different choices than I do), use the "what if your toddler ran into the street" argument to support spanking in conversation with me. I have never bought it.

I agree fully that it is useless to try to reason with a toddler or young child about her behaviour (and I speak from experience, I do have a toddler). However, the solution is proper parental supervision, not spanking. Where was I when my toddler had the opportunity to run into the street, or grab knives from grandma's drawer, or whatever example you may choose? If a child is too young to understand the implications of their behaviour, then it is up to us as the responsible adults to ensure that they do not have the opportunity to participate in that behaviour. Period.

Now, I understand that as human beings we may slip up and every now and then our children will run into the street despite our best efforts (again, I know this first hand - my own daugter rolled of the change table at three months old while I was changing her). But, when this does occur, it should serve as a reminder to us as the adults that we must remain vigilant in ensuring our children's safety; spanking the child as a response is really punishing the child for our own failings.

In regard to the necessity of spanking in order to maintain parental authority in the face of "open defiance", that's a whole different ball of wax which I don't feel I have the energy to discuss after a 12-hour day of working in child protection, where I get to see first hand the unfortunate effects of this type of "might-makes-right" thinking. Suffice it to say that if the only way you can get your "defiant" (read: "normal") child to respect you is by hitting him, then you've got a lot to learn as a parent, and I hope you put the effort into learning it soon.

If all you are doing is ensuring your children never have an opportunity to hurt themselves, then you are not teaching them anything.

The fact that you are in the child protection industry and construe my points about maintaining legitimate authority as an attempt to justify beating chldren because "might makes right" is the most distressing.

I can only add my own experience, as these discussions have been going on with parents (even in church settings) for decades. When our children were young (babies/toddlers) we went to a church film series on parenting called "Focus on the Family". My husband and I, and two other couples were in a discussion group. The film advocated spanking, including picking up a girdle or whatever was handy and whacking the kid across the face with it. In the discussion group, one couple with 3 kids tried to tell the other couple and us (we all had 3 kids) every kind of justification I've read on here. We didn't buy it, and both us and the other couple who were against spanking walked out. It's now 21 years later. Our three children are good, honest, upstanding citizens. They're not perfect, but they all have professional degrees, stable relationships, and we're a close family. They were never any trouble to us as teens. The same with the other couple. I married the oldest daughter, and the other two were in the wedding party - two are lawyers and one's a staty-at-home mom. Great adults. All 6. Nobody ran out in the street. Nobody took knives out of the drawer. No troubled teens. It's a small study of only 3 families, but let me tell you that the couple who stayed in this "course" had NOTHING but trouble with their 3 kids. Problems, problems, problems. None of them ran into the street or knifed anyone, though. I guess that's something. But I just think it's interesting.

Hitting children should not have a special word for it. It's just hitting children, because you can't think of anything else to do that will work to lead or guide the child to make good decisions. There ARE other things, though.

I think that if we want to change our world, we can start with how we treat our children. Whether we hit them or verbally assault them or threaten them, we are bullying them and disempowering them. Is that what we really want to do? I was spanked, and I know that much of my childhood was about learning to obey, submitting to authority. As a forty-something adult, I still catch myself saying, "my Mom would never approve," and I fear making mistakes. I have to consciously overcome some of the affects of how I was raised (though I have good parents who also did wonderful things for me). My kids, on the other hand, have had the opportunity to define themselves, and internalize their own values. They've learned that there are consequences that are connected to behaviours, and sometimes they decide to bear the consequences. It's not about obedience out of fear. It's not about being punished if you're caught. It's about making choices. My two sons have been remarkably resillient to peer pressure. I'm no perfect parent, mind you, and I have regrets as most parents do. I'd like to see less bullying behaviour among adults (who do it in workplaces and sometimes subtle and socially acceptable ways) so I just figure we need to start by not bullying our kids.

My own experience with "spanking" when I was a child was similar to what someone else posted (sorry I can't remember the name) about remembering the hits but not the reason. I have to no idea why I was hit, and the impressions that my parents did make on me about how to treat people and how to behave in social setting came from when they talked to me. I remember the conversations, even when one or all of us were upset or angry. I couldn't tell anyone what the causes of the "spakings" were.

The major problem I encountered as a child who was spanked was that when I was in school and someone misbehaved or did something that I felt was out of line, I hit them. Took a very long time, some of it in later conversation with my parents, and some of it in my own self-exploring; to come to a point where I wouldn't lash out with a hand when I felt someone deserved it.

I am now a parent, and I manage quite well without physically punishing my son. To the arguments for "spaking"

Young Children Don't Understand:
I don't know about you, but I've never met a more savy and coniving group of people than a collection of 3-5 year olds. They understand more things about how the average adult works than you'll ever figure out about them in a year. They know exactly what you mean when you say "No" and they will do everything in their power to "misunderstand" you. They also know exactly which buttons to push in which order to drive you insane. Trust me, I was a preschool - kindergarden age sunday-school teacher for a year, and they know EXACTLY what they are doing.

You Shouldn't "Spank" When You're Angry:
Sorry, I think I missed something there... so we should hit our children with a cold and clinical "this is good for you" attitude? I've never understood that one.

They Won't Learn Otherwise:
See the first one. And my first set of comments, all your child will learn is how to hit. Don't be surprised when your child who you spank lashes out at other children when those children misbehave. That is what they have learned. Beyond that, my parents had a lot of kids; as they got older and more experienced they stopped using spaking as a method of punishment. Me and my siblings are all adults now, and we are very similar in the ways we interact with other people and the world. We learned the same lessons, only because I was the eldest I was spanked, and my youngest sister was not.

Good Luck to all the parents :) it is no easy task we undertake.

noel wrote: I see nothing wrong with spanking or shouting at children as long as they are meant for correction and would not cause severe or long term physical and emotional harm.

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No, no...even short term physical and/or emotional harm is wrong. You can spank or shout without causing harm. Just thought I'd clarify...I'm sure that's what you meant...

I became a parent in the '80s when Dr. Spock and many other "professional parents" were telling us spanking wasn't good...So I didn't spank my child. She is now a defiant, spoiled brat who has learned to argue really well. I can't tell her anything she doesn't already know! Want my advice? Spank 'em. "Spare the rod, spoil the child." It's the only thing they understand. "I" messages don't work with 6 year olds. You must use common sense though! It won't do any good to spank a 2 year old! You don't want to hit very hard on a 3 year old. You never want to hit anyone hard enough to really hurt them! And if you spank a teenager, they might hit you back!

Q: Has anyone seen the campaign against spanking?

I have seen it on TV. It may just as well be an ad for shouting at children. I see nothing wrong with spanking or shouting at children as long as they are meant for correction and would not cause severe or long term physical and emotional harm.

Dr. Spock gets blamed repeatedly for the ill-behaved children (now spoiled adults) of recent generations. True, he spoke out against corporal punishment. However, he also made it quite clear (at least in the edition I read when we were raising our child) that he could not abide children who were not disciplined by their parents. He suggested other ways of dealing with bad behavior. He did not encourage indulging children, quite the opposite.

I haven't seen the spanking campaign, but I have to respond to the spanking debate about whether to do it or not. I personally do not believe that spanking does anything. You're trying to teach your children not to hit, but then you go and hit them for doing it. All you're really teaching your children is that it's okay to hit people that are weaker than you to solve your problems. I know a lot of people who were spanked as children and have low self-esteem because of it. I think that the reason for this is that you're being HIT by the people who are supposed to love and accept you, the ones who actually created you. If anyone was going to hit you, you wouldn't think that it would be them. I hate when people say that spanking didn't hurt them, so it's fine for their children. I thought we knew better than that now. There's so much more out there that we can do, and I'm definitely not saying that we should just switch over to verbal threats or things like that because that could cause even lower self esteem. Think about it, what hurts more: being spanked a few times, or being called an idiot or some other derogatory comment over and over? I don't believe in either, but there are so many other ways of guidance for your children. There's a quote that I love from Barbara Coloroso, a parenting guru, so to speak. "...because they are kids and for no other reason, they deserve dignity and respect, simply because they are". Also, "Just because it's not wrong doesn't mean that it's right." I'd like to leave you with a little scenario...Can you imagine spanking your senile grandmother because she went out of the yard without permission? So why do we do to kids at the age of 2 what we wouldn't want them doing to us at the age of 80? Spanking only teaches children to not get caught.

Bubuy...I want to respond to your comment about your child being defiant and spoiled and how she's learned to argue really well. You might not appreciate it right now that your child is defiant and can argue well, but they will both serve her well when she is a teenager. She'll be able to argue with her friends when they want her to stay out all night, try drugs, or if her boyfriend wants to have sex before she's ready. Also, being defiant is just standing her ground and standing up for her own opinion. Isn't this something that we want all of our children to have? I personally don't want my children to do everything that I tell them, because then they haven't learned to think for themselves. Once they go out into the "real world", all they know is to listen to what other people have told them, and it won't be you at that time. It'll be their peers. It might be hard to stomach right now, but I would encourage your daughter's ability to argue. In fact, it can actually make it easier for you as a parent sometimes. Say she wants to do something that you don't want her to do, why bother spending all of your time trying to convince her of why she can't, when she can spend all of her energy trying to convince you why she should be able to? She might even be able to change your mind if she comes up with a good, rational argument and you'll be helping her critical thinking skills develop, So next time she wants to do something, just tell her, "Convince me" and put her talents to work.

I've been a teacher in the public school system in BC for 30 years. Corporal punishment was outlawed before I began my career.

It would make life in the school system soooo much easier if we could just swat our students when they step out of line. It would make life so much better on the highways if police officers could kick us in the groin when we are caught speeding. It would make business much more efficient if the bankers could just come over to our houses and slap us around when we don't pay our credit cards on line. It would make our world a much better place if we could just invade bad countries and kill their leaders and install good ones.

My concern goes, not to spanking per se, but to the public's view of discipline. It seems to me that too many people take the "don't spank" to mean "don't do anything." We've got those Nanny programs and have you SEEN those kids on TV?

What we're doing to children in the name of protecting them is dangerous.

Children do not properly mature without controlled risk, thus overprotecting is a stupid thing to do, spanking would be better. Sure, there are many parents who can discipline without spanking. There are others who do not have that flexibility of mind.

How to put all the parts together into a cogent whole? Ah now! That is the question!

I do not have answers here ...

Spanking is violence. Spanking is violence perpetrated against defenceless children.

If you cannot control your children without resorting to violence, perhaps the problem isn't your children.

I was spanked as a child and do not remember it as a bad thing. It didn't ever hurt for longer than a few seconds and I also remember that I had many warnings before the spankings. I try not to spank my child. I am not against it but try not to. We use "the corner". My main reason for this choice is that it lasts longer than a spanking and can be done anywhere. Really, how long does a spaking hurt and what does it teach? I want my children to have to think about what they have done or rather how to change their behavior, not how much they're bottom stings. I think the worst thing sbout spanking is that it is humiliating to the child if done in public or in front of others.

Witch: Yes, spanking is violence. We allow violence in many areas for several reasons. The state's monopoly on violence is the root of all law, that is only one example.

I agree that we should cut down on spanking and replace it with other forms of discipline. That said, there are going to be times when physical force is required in child rearing.

I do not want us to become too over-reactionary here. That would be a bigger danger.

For my own part, I want to create the best children we can create given the constraints in which our culture works. That means we should, in my mind, be careful not to listen to EITHER of the hard lien sides in this debate. Somewhere in the middle lies a responsible path ...

After years of babysitting my 4 cousins, I've learned that spanking does not work. Rather if a kid is being destructive, play with him/her till s/he tires out and falls asleep.

If a kid is on bad behaviour, best think to do is to not give them a reward. Basically instead of the treat or stick, it's treat or no treat.

Thank you rons! I think you hit the nail on the head. Physical violence used, like terrorists do, to intimidate, deter and yes, also punish is effective. Its effective in forcing dissent underground, its effective in establishing two very seperate classes of people in a 'home' so if intimacy is thin we can understand why. God knows children are hard to endure sometimes - our own, some one else's, it doesn't matter much which. Children can be appealing and can be awful. But that comes with the territory. Yes they need to learn about relating, about their impact on other people, on towing the line and the reality of authority but childhood is an immature state where this understanding does not exist intact. For them to actually develop social skill, social understanding and community awareness they have to make mistakes a million times and have the adults in their lives give them an honest human reaction. But we don't need to control them. They do what they do [unless its physically, or morally dangerous] and we do what we do and eventually, they join us [for the most part] and ocaasionally we join them.

Rons that was brilliant!!

I'm glad to see the Barabara Coloroso reference - she is right on - don't treat a child in a way that you wouldn't treat an adult - not because they can reason and figure it out, but because we are teaching them how to handle frustrations and trouble and our first thing should be to have kids who can feel safe in discovering that. Another of her stories was about spanking a child who kept running toward the street. People say that in that case it is necessary because it gets their attention. Well, the little child then learns to run to the street with her hands on her behind - covering her ass! The message is Dont' get caught!

In my house, my rule is "everyone is safe - no one hurts anyone here". I have made the biggest punishment (it changes as they grow) banishment to the stairs or room, and removal of priviledges. For a young child one minute is plenty, For an older one it might be 20 minutes for a break. They know when they have crossed the line, or reached the end of my rope. They know it, it just doesn't require pain.

I was spanked too, and I got over it. I lived. Great - so? Now my first reaction is to smack em' but I had to unlearn that and go to a different tactic. Hopefully, I can teach my kids some coping skills without violence being one of them.

Jw writes, "Sure, there are many parents who can discipline without spanking. There are others who do not have that flexibility of mind."

People without "flexibility of mind" should not be having children in the first place. This is the sad part. Just anyone can be a parent, and it apparently requires absolutely no ability whatsoever.

I don't see a problem with spanking. Whether we choose to only spank at home behind closed doors or offer the occasional public show of spankin, which I know grosses some people out, I believe we should be allowed to continue spanking. Spanking for some is a wasy of life, it is all we know, so if we want to continue to spank then who are they to stop us from spanking. I personally think nothing beats a good hard spank when the little fellow gets a bit too excited. Sometimes a fast little spank in a pinch has just as satisfying a result. So to all who spank, keep spanking and know you are doing nothing wronk. Im not gonna allow some governemnt burecrat to tell me I cant spank. What is next a spank tax.?

How can we tell a child it is only not ok to hit when we hit?

"I personally think nothing beats a good hard spank when the little fellow gets a bit too excited."

I don't agree with spanking a child; that said, I understand the concept of spanking a child as negative reinforcement for bad behavior. I am really concerned that somebody would spank a child because he is "too excited". A child does not understand the difference between negative reinforcement for an action and negative reinforcement for an emotion. Spanking a child because he is "too excited" is giving him a negative reinforcement for having an emotion that should provide him enjoyment. I fear for his emotional health later in life.

I am a professional who works with children, and I am also a parent to two children. I can tell you that we have never hit our children and they are both polite, well behaved kids. We treat them with respect and encourage individuality and rational thought and they respond with respect. We have also always ensured that we are consistent, so when they were little and we said that we would leave the Mall if they acted up, we did leave when that occurred. They learned from those natural consequences. This approach is not the easy road, but it is more effective in the long term.

Kids are also individuals, and every individual has a right under the Charter of Rights to security of the person. When the Supreme Court of Canada waded into the debate on spanking, a few of the Justices dissented and their report is worth reading. If I cannot strike my neighbour when he fails to return my power drill, why is it okay to hit a child when they misbehave?

Slipperslope made the argument above that hitting children is okay to teach them about safety. That tired argument is always marched out in this debate. Why would hitting a child to prevent them from running into traffic be more effective then grabbing on to them and then rationally discussing the danger? If they are too young to understand, then they are too bloody young to be beside a busy road unsupervised.

The folks who anger me the most in the spanking debate are the Evangelical Christians who argue about the need to "train" children. These are the folks who advocate for the use of "rods of correction" and talk about driving carnality out of children. It is not unusual that I would find this distasteful; aside from it being abusive most of what the evangelicals have to say offends me in one way or another.

Regards
Holden

I was spanked (or beaten or hit) as a child, and while I don't think it's the best way to punish a child I know that for me it was very effective and I understand why parents used it. For me, spanking was the ultimate punishment...The worst punishment possible. It usually didn't really hurt, but it was always very humiliating, so much that I can still remember specific instances from my early childhood.
I agree that spanking is okay if one, it is a last resort; two, if it is not done in anger; and three, if parents talk about it with their kids so they understand the why. Otherwise spanking potentially becomes abuse.
In my experience, any time a parent loses their temper on their child is the most hurtful form of punishment, and this doesn't necessarily include spanking. Whenever my parents totally lost it and started screaming at me I always remember feeling extremely angry at them. So I don't think it's so much the action that matters, it's whether or not it's done in anger. I think if it's done in anger it ceases to be discipline.

I understand that there are/would be concerns about spanking going too far and becoming beating for me anyways spanking = smacking the bottom, smacking the hand both fairly lightly. I was spanked as a child and I COMPLETELY forgot about it until a sociology class, and guess what although about 3/4's of the class was spanked all except one of us had completely forgotten in the ten years or so after it had happened.

Spanking is not beating, I would spank my children (once I have them) but I'm hoping that I won't have to (as in my husband will, I realize that children will be children). In the end verbal damage has hurt so many more children then spanking ever has.

I personally like those ads. I agree with them whole heartedly. I have friends who were spanked as children and when they think about it they'd even go so far as saying they hate their parents for it. My parents are firmly against spanking and I'm so glad for it becuase I've seen the emotional harm spanking can do and it's more than some people realise.

While reading some of the posts here I just felt that I had to reply. I'll confess to not reading all of the posts as I have to get supper started!!

It makes me laugh when people who say that spanking is ok as long as it isn't done in anger....when else do parents do it??? I have yet to see a calm rational parent spank their child.

I think taht one of the most important things I've learned is that physical punishment of any kind or screaming at your children only teaches children what not to do but it doesn't teach them the right thing to do. I believe it is never necessary to hit, scream or terrorize your children. Learn a little patience and remember a parents role is to teach not to hurt.

Daisy76 (formally daisy13.....forgot password after holidays....don't ask long story!)

I only feel comfortable speaking about our own family. We don't spank or otherwise hit our children. They don't whine, throw a fit, act out, threaten themselves or others, etc. Maybe they will turn into rotten little savages in their teens, but so far the omens are good.

They have been reported by other parents, teachers, etc, to be helpful, empathetic, kind, enthusiastic, and well-mannered. (pleases, thank yous, helping pick up toys, helping new kids in class etc.)

I have noticed that many, many forms of bad behaviour can be stopped before they start by ensuring my children
-get enough rest
-get enough good food in time, so they don't get uncomfortably hungry
-get enough exercise (on really bad weather days, we often have to play tag indoors or balloon volleyball or take turns skipping rope in the hall, but it makes a big big difference)

I have no idea whether spanking is "necessary" in other families. But I don't see any reason that it's necessary in mine.

Sometimes kids push the boundaries too far and anger people -- they don't show respect.

At some point everyone will react physically if pushed far enough. Kids react physically each other a lot. They push, pinch, bite, throw objects, kick etc. especially as preschoolers.

Parents need to teach their kids where that line is. Otherwise you might just find that someone else who does not love them, or care about their well being, will show them the line.

I am not advocating for spanking but kids do need to undertand when they have pushed someone too far. I think this is very important to learn at a young age vs an age when someone else can do serious physcial damage. We don't want our kids first expirience with physical reactions to be with a depressed kid with a gun or a bully with a baseball bat.

So the big thing is to let the kids know you're serious.

Do you have to hit? Do you have to hurt them? I think it is weakness on the part of a parent (Yes I really said that) to have to hurt their children because they couldn't come up with something better.

The goal is to teach a child a new behaviour - well, they're learning from every spank that violence is ok.

You're the grown-up. Act like it. Restrain yourself, give a time out - ah, just read Barbara Coloroso Kids are Worth it - this is about love & respect & self-respect too. Kids raised with reasonable limits and respect will do ok.

No one has to hurt children.

D n D, I work with a few people who anger me far more than any of my kids. However, the law prevents me from hitting these coworkers. I also cannot by law strike the rude clerk at the store etc.

I believe that kids deserve the same respect and benefit from the lesson that we cannot solve things (even when really angry) by hitting.

Holden

Spanking is assault, plain and simple. People have rights and one of those rights is the security of person. Not allowing children this right is hypocritical and discriminatory.

I don't find that spanking does a child any justice. It is demeaning, embarrassing and it is used as a control method. It shows them that hitting is ok and they see the excuses that parents give them after the incident. We put the blame on their behaviour for our actions. Is that what we want our children to learn? Blame our actions on someone else? Are we really trying to teach our children a lesson or scare them into correcting their behaviour?

I was spanked as a child (bare bottom with the belt) and I lost respect for my dad. It wasn't until I was in my early 20's and in my years as a Sociology major that I really questioned the whole spanking issue. It did affect me on many levels that I never really examined before. I always thought that "I turned out Ok" but when you really dig deep down and start to put things together, it does affect a person in some way. Maybe not their self esteem per say, but there are many issues that arrise that are attached to being spanked. it is not something I will ever do to my child and I never want him to learn that it is ok to hit, because it is NEVER ok.
Just my opinion.

First of all, yes I was spanked. I don't remember what I was spanked for but isn't that the point somewhat? Obviously I haven't done what I got spanked for again otherwise I would have got another spanking.
I must agree with someone who said that it has to be used as a "last resort" kind of thing. There were many other punishments inflicted before it ever got to spanking in my house but sometimes kids just don't listen and need a physical form of punishment, not abuse, punishment.
One post (sorry don't remember who by) said they we should be glad that our children are arguementative and selfish, that it will help them when they're teenagers. What a load of wack. I don't know what kids she knows but the ones who were like that when we were younger are even worse now in highschool. Children like that aren't going to use their aregueing skills on their freinds, they'll use them on their parents and teachers.
All in all I don't have a problem on spaking as long as it's not physically or mentally harming the child (which i think there's proff enough that it doesn't always do).

Bethany

FREAKONOMICS by Levitt & Dubner have some interesting ideas about the effects of spanking on children. Levitt seems to say neither effects the kids school performace or long term happiness, etc.

I suspect that I could deck my neighbor tomorrow and it would likely have little effect on his long term happiness or job performance. However it would still be wrong and violation of his person as an individual.

Are some things just "wrong"?
Or is something "wrong" because of the effect it has?

Plain & simple - you just don't need to spank a child!!!!! There are better ways to discipline (Barbara Coloroso!!!!) than hurting them or making them fear you.

Take a deep breath, remind yourself that you are teaching a child how to grow up into a useful human being, and find another way!!!!

Set a different limit - child crosses the line, gets sat on the floor in the middle of the room in silence until ready to behave in a human way? Or on the stairs (the idea here is bedrooms are full of distractions), put 2 kids side by side until they permit each other to get up.

Don't be bossy, or wishy-washy. Be predictable, constant, loving & firm. Laugh a lot. Apologize when you blow it. Find something fun to do together when all is said and done.

Yes I would argue that hitting is just wrong. Using my example, I am much less likely to cause physical harm if I hit my adult neighbour rather than hitting a child. Children are more fragile just because of their size.

The law prevents me from hitting my neighbour whether I cause injury or permanent upset is not part of the criteria.

It's interesting to hear the Stats that say spanking has no ill effects.