at 10 I'd be putting responsibility on the kid. Why did he do it? and what are his consequences?

At 10 playing with a friend is resonable.

He's pleanty old enough to know about fire/matches danger.

There is no blame here.  You have to dance with the one you came with, you must play with the cards you're dealt.  This story doesn't show me intent to set fire, only shows you shouldn't play with matches.  Hopefully a lesson was learned and no one was hurt?

I agree Tabitha, a 10 year old should know when and where fire is acceptable.

ETA: It depends on how the fire was actually started though.  If a toy sparked, or something like that, then I wouldn't blame the kids.

I remember years ago a grass fire was started, when they found the culprits (pre-teens/young teens) the blame was put on them and not their parents.

I think it also depends on where the matches came from in the first place. If they were the babysitters maybe some blame could be placed on her. Nevertheless, at 10 and 12 both boys should have known better and deserve the majority of the blame.

I agree with the others who have posted. I attended a workshop on helping children who set fires. The Toronto Fire Department started this program because they were tired of finding dead children in the closets of house fires. Usually the children who play with matches are younger than ten. Then there's the kids like these boys who play on a different scale and end up setting something on fire, like the field. Kids who set fires out of anger or psychological reasons have a different profile than those who "play" with matches.

Of course the boys need to be held accountable. Shifting the blame won't help. Where did the matches come from? That will tell a lot.

The facilitator at the workshop I attended asked who of the participants had set fires as children. Just about every firefighter in the crowd raised their hands.....the fires were different levels and sizes. The chief of that department (not Toronto FD) had set a field on fire with his friend.

Sometimes these incidents can be good learning experiences if everyone handles them properly.

Hi Trishcuit,

Well, there is probably lots to go around.

Who brought the matches?

Who lit the fire?

Once the fire is underway who called the fire department?

As far as duty of care goes the Babysitter has some responsibility.  The mom who picked the babysitter has some responsibility.  And then there is whomever is supposed to be responsible for the other kid.

And what about the grass that caught fire?  How long was it?  Longer grass burns differently just because there is more fuel for the fire.

So, lots of fingers are just begging to be pointed.

Assigning blame is no real good if nobody learns lessons through it.

Are these kids going to play with matches again?

Is this sitter going to pay closer attention?  Is this mother going to do better diligence in picking a sitter?  Is whomever was responsible for the grass going to maintain it so it isn't a fire hazard?

Time will tell.

Grace and peace to you.

John

I agree that it wasn't a great situation but I guess I come down on the side of rolling my eyes and sighing "kids"!   The original post doesn't imply that either of these kids made a habit of starting fires.  They are both kids and we all know kids don't stop and think things through all the time.  A friend and I started a grass fire once - my brother started several.  My kids started some too - they weren't bad kids, disturbed kids, acting out kids.........just kids. The Fire department wasn't needed though for any my family fires.

Actually my partner accidently set fire to the grass in the yard once - and a farmer neighbor had a stubble fire get out of hand once too.

The original post doesn't even say it was matches.  I remember playing around with a magnifying glass and pieces of paper with black writing around that age.  There were rules about not doing it when it was windy, and setting everything on concrete (like the driveway) etc.  There is also tinkering with engines in toys that if it was dry enough a spark could start a fire.

It's probably that they were playing with matches or lighters, but nothing in the OP says how it started.

As for playing with fire you should see some of the stuff the big boys (ages 21 - 70s?) get into in a chemistry lab.

Ten year olds should be able to play outside without constant supervision.  I know people say the world has changed, but even so, when I was 10 I would go to the park with friends for a few hours without being watched, I'd ride my bike or walk through my neighbourhood on my own, or we'd go to the school yard or the basketball court and  even though some kids did stupid things some times, it was usually fine.  The parent (or babysitter) was home "just in case" anything went wrong and everyone knew how to get to them if there was an accident.  I don't think the babysitter can be blamed for this, at least not based on the information provided.  If the babysitter knew that this child needed more supervision than the average 10 year old, that would be different.

I haven't read the whole thread, but, I can tell you about a situation that happened to me.

I was an experienced babysitter.  Had been doing it quite a bit for a few years.  I knew how to care for children and had steady clients which were generally vetted by my family.

A person that I babysat for said their sister and her husband needed a sitter and could I do it for their child of about 5 or 6 (my memory doesn't serve me that well) and a little baby.

It was the sitting job from hell.

It started out ok.  The little boy was being a pain, but the baby was fine. Then, the little baby was starting to fuss, as babies do.  No problem.  The challenge was, the little boy came into the babies room with a hammer (yes, a hammer) saying "what are you doing to my baby sister"..and then was trying to hit me with it.  So, I had a baby in my arms, and a litle boy trying to whack me. I finally, got the baby down, and the hammer away from the boy.  It didn't get any better.  Then, the parents came home and the father was drunk....like totalled, and wanted to drive me home. They paid me less than anyone gets, and I ended up calling a cab and paying for it myself.

I found out later that the little boy at 4 had had the police called on him for letting air out of the tires of cars and the police were regularly at the home.

So......I feel badly for the babysitter.  You know, there may be a website service here.  Babysitter beware..

and to REALLY throw fuel on the fire (pun intended) this happened at our complex only two days PRIOR! 

It wasn't our unit but right across the road so too close for comfort. we were evacuated for several hours.

three of the five handicapped units were utterly destroyed and the other two need work for smoke and water damage. Praise God there was no injury or loss of life, not even pets. Two of the displaced people are young women who are in wheelchairs.

with these boys it was not a fire stsrted by accident. they were intentionally playing with fire. I am pretty sure it involved matches. 

Firstly - let's just be thankful nobody was hurt or worse!

Secondly - my question is: what was the babysitter doing while this was going on? Was there a legitimate reason for him/her not to be outside with this child? When I was a babysitter I assumed that, since I was being paid to be with the children, if they wanted to go outside, I would go with them. If, for some reason, I couldn't be outside with them, I always tried to at least be near a window that I could see them through. Obviously, however, there are times when this isn't possible - so I hope, for the babysitter's sake, that this was the case in this situation.

My hope is that, instead of getting in trouble, this child will get some help - and perhaps some restorative justice might be appropriate.

yes I agree exactly.

And the fire at the complex was a different thing altogether. it is still under investigation.

In the case of this boy, it  is starting to look like he is going to need stronger supervision and my friend does not get paid enough for that crap. She has two girls of her own and is somewhat disabled  by arthritis. 

God's fault, definitely. Dry grass? It should have been raining at the time. 

and just to add something else to think about=chilldren need to learn to respect firThey need to spend time building and feeding campfires-or fires in fireplaces or firepits.

They need to know how to light a fire and how to feed a fire

When teaching sunday school a few years back the kids took turns lighting the candle-I was always suprised by the ones who said-wow this is the first time I've been allowed to

So thank goodness for parents/scouts/guides/outdoor ed classes that let children play with fire and understand it-in safe and controlled ways.

Unfortunately Mike, I think the prophets have left the building so to speak. No one to bring rain clouds at opportune times.

Yes it has been a dry one for sure.  Grass fires popping up everywhere lately.   I wouldn't mind some rain myself, for the garden.

Tabitha,

Playing with the campfire is one of the best parts of camping.  

Alas, it is another result of the bubble wrapped kids nowadays.

I wrote something articulate this morning, and it went into the biosphere since my internet at home was sketchy this morning.......

I agree with you Tabitha, children need to learn how to handle fire responsibly. I am fairly certain that by the age of ten, I had participated in making a campfire or feeding a wood stove. I learned early to respect fire. A lot of kids lately are being coddled, and protected in ways that do not allow them to learn for themselves how to protect themselves. They need to be able to play freely outside without adult intervention, so they can learn what to do with unstructured time.

It is scary when young kids or teens set fires and cause so much disruption. Hopefully other children's activities will not be curtailed because someone set a fire....

That was something I put in my more articulate post this morning. Too many kids are all but bubble wrapped these days. A lot of young adults are now experiencing major depression and anxiety when they head off to post secondary schools because they do not know how to fend for themselves. It is sad, really.

It amazes me that well educated, apparently intelligent parents cheerfully send their children off to start adult lives without even the most basic of skills.  Local kid went to Uni, parents paid tuition and rent and allowance.  Kid didn't know how to boil an egg, peel a potato, do the laundry, clean the bathroom, keep track of the money, pay bills or anything else much of use.    

While still in primary school I remember chopping kindling and soft wood with an ax, carrying it in to fill the woodbox, feeding the wood stove (kitchen range and livingroom heater).  I also gathered wood and built bonfires - sometimes to roast hot dogs or marshmellows, often just for fun.  All the kids I knew did.  We carried matches, or helped ourselves to the box within easy reach in the kitchen.  And in the spring we lit fires to burn off the old grass (people had the idea then that burning the old would make the new grass grow quicker, greener, healthier.)  If the fire threatened to get away from us we beat it down with wet burlap bags, kept handy for that purpose.  I don't remember any of us ever getting burned enough to matter, or ever starting a fire that caused damage.  We had great respect for fire.

Today's kids don't have the same opportunities.

The same with going into the woods.  The woods were our playground.  We raced through them playing 'cowboys and Indians', we hiked along old logging trails exploring, and we were sent by our parents into the woods to pick berries, or take dad's lunch out to him when he was peeling pulp 1/4 mile in the woods.  We never got lost.  We might get mixed up a bit, but we looked around, got our bearings, made our way out again.  Recently three siblings were lost for several hours.  They had been told never to go into the woods, but being kids, they wandered in and got lost 500 yards from their home. 

Seeler, I feel so sad for today's kids, who often simply aren't able to go out and explore for themselves. Although I grew up in the city, I lived by the mountains and there was access to both crown land and a provincial park at the end of my street. There were logging roads to explore, creeks to jump over, trees that seemed to touch the clouds and forest creatures to stand in awe of. The rule was that I had to be within earshot of my house - and I wasn't to go into the forest alone (of course, that rule changed once I got to be about 12 or 13). I also had what I called "the forest" in my own backyard - in the bottom corner of the yard stood 11 Douglas Fir trees and a whole bunch of other plants including several holly bushes and several huckleberry bushes (yum!) - which I could explore, by myself, whenever I wanted to. That was always my favourite area of the yard.

Things have changed a lot since the time I was growing up 25-30 years ago. In BC, I think we lost our innocence when a little boy named Michael Dunahee was abducted back in 1991. Suddenly the world became a lot scarier for children and their parents. As a result, however, many kids have never really had the chance to connect with nature - and thus have little to no respect for it. It never occured to us kids to set fires in our neighbourhood - if we did, it would burn our beloved trees down (that's assuming we could even get the fire to light in this damp climate).

Neither parents nor babysitters follow ten year olds around, constantly watching them.  Ten years old is old enough to know that playing with fire is wrong, not allowed.  Blame the kids.  IF the parents knew he/they were firebugs, blame them for not informing the babysitter.  IF the babysitter knew that she had problem kid(s) on her hands, blame her for not monitoring the situation better, I guess...even in that situation, can the babysitter keep visual contact 100% of the time?

Put the blame where it belongs, on the kids.  They knew better.  They may be kids but they still did wrong...a LARGE wrong and they should pay the consequences.  No bubble wrapping for me. 

I was left with a babysitter when I was 10 if I was at my mom's (no other siblings there), but myself and and my step-siblings were left on our own (when I was at my dad's) at age 8, 10, and 12.  I don't remember ever having a babysitter when the three of us were alone. The worst that I remember happening was my step-siblings tortured me--yes, they were absolute bullies. I think my step-sister was entrusted with the job being the oldest, but she was the bully mastermind-- they would torment me with dead spiders and such, and my step brother spread honey onthe walls (or maybe he put it all over his hands and got it all over the walls) and tried to climb them thinking he would stick, and got in trouble--it was a madhouse when the parents were out--we pushed our boundaries and then some-- but nothing house destroying luckily, because looking back, worse could have happened-- and my step-mother smoked back then, so there were matches and lighters around (that's one thing we did try behind their backs, was smoking, my step sister being the instigator--bad, bad-- but maybe not until a few years later). We were all taught how to light a fire properly and carefully in the fireplace; supervised everytime if  I remember correctly...not allowed to do it when adults weren't home, and I don't think anyone broke that rule. And we all did play with magnifying glasses outside in the summer, no supervision. Times were different. I babysat when I was 11. Just watched next door neighbour's kid for a couple of hours sometimes and babysat my much younger half brother when I was 12 going on 13, and more after that, into my teens. I never had to look after any real nuiscance kids (my older friends kids were a bit out of control, spraying rootbeer onto passersby from their apartment balcony, but that wasn't until my twenties). I took a babysitting course at about 11 years of age, through either Red Cross or St. John's ambulance as well. Maybe the babysitting age was younger then.  I think the legal babysitting age is 13 now, is it? I'd say that's a good thing.

Also, if I had a babysitter during the day, I was allowed to go out and play in the neighbourhood without her as long as she knew where I was going, and I was pretty good about that (it was always 'her', not too many boys babysat). Never went really far from home...everywhere I went was in earshot probably, and if it was a friend's house out of shouting range, I would tell them. She was just there to have someone to check in with. By 11, living mostly with my mom who was single at the time, I was a latch-key kid. I came home afterschool and let myself in, and heated up my own dinner (my mom would leave me something prepared to heat up, or I knew how to make KD, and even a salad--and learned how to do my own laundry at about that age, etc, and I was a kid with a (mild) physical disability. My parents (neither set of them), didn't believe in coddling me too much or treating me differently from any other kid. My mom was probably more over cautious about me taking physical risks, but she had no choice but to leave me alone. So, I learned to look after myself earlier probably.

We used to play a lot unsupervised. I do feel sorry for kids now, always having an adult tag along. But, it's necessary, especially in cities.

Speaking of cities, I bought my daughter a cell phone for her 11th birthday. I am very glad I did. She is a sensible girl and takes it when she goes out with her friends and to school. It is not a really expensive phone (under $100) but the plan allows for unlimited texting so that is perfect for her to keep in touch. The other day the school bus got caught in stopped traffic due to a possible gas leak somewhere. She texted me from the bus so I knew what was going on and that she would be late etc.

The twenty-odd dollars it costs me a month is worth the peace of mind. Mind you there are kids that age who would NOT be good with their own phone. It would get lost, broken, or the bill run WAY over the allowed talk time. Or if it were pre-pay they would use it up the first three days and would not have a phone available for emergencies.

Yep some kids have common sense and some don't.

When I was ten I was smoking.

Not now though.

Kind of hard to do that without access to a source of fire eh!