I think part of the answer to this is discerning what you define as faith, and who/what you believe God to be?
Something my mom once told me about the United Church has helped me during many of the times when I struggled with the same questions you have...it doesn't matter where you are on your journey towards faith, it only matters that you are looking for the path.
While there are always bad eggs in very barrell, the United Church for me has been a place where I can ask these tough questions, explore and try to find out where I am on the journey, and find others who are there too, sometimes they're a little further ahead than I am, and sometimes they're not sure where to start.
I believe that faith is knowing that we're all in this together, and that there is goodness out there if we are willing to look for it, accept it, and invite it into our lives. I belive that God is the epitemy of goodness. If you believe that God is a puppet master, of course you will be disapointed in your relationship with God, but if you believe that God is goodness, you will find evidence of the existance of God all around you.

I empathize with you but unfortunately I can't help you. My "descent" into losing my very strong faith was not overnight. It took me almost 4 decades before I even began to question traditional Christian teachings and strictures... and from there it went to challenging organized religion and eventually to losing belief in God. There is a huge, gaping void in my life that is still unfilled after so many years of searching for a "replacement"... including looking at organized religion again. Best of luck on your search.

Thanks Melony...I do believe in goodness and I believe I live a christlike lifestyle, however, I believe that Christ may have been a good person who tried to teach others that it was better to live with goodness than not. I do believe in a universal energy called goodness that is a part of some of us.

I would argue that goodness is a part of all of us. It is getting in touch with this goodness that we are actually talking about when we speek of finding God. What a different place the world would be if we could all find God/Goodness within ourselves and others.

I have also wreslted with the same questions as you. The answer that I have come to is that it is not God we should lose faith in, but mankind. Its man that keeps doing horrible things to one another that I don't think God has a hand in. He designed us to love one another, not hate and somewhere along the way we strayed from that. I left the church once as well because of anger with God and I too found an emptiness that could not be filled. I searched for God again, but in my own way. I wanted to know God, not just obey what some pastor says. I found friends to talk to about these tough questions and have found Gods peace again and that whole is filled even more now. Good luck with your journey and I pray that you find what you need to fill your hole.

I never lost faith completely, but there was a time in my life when I questioned the value of religion and considered myself agnostic. I didn't feel that I could be aligned with organized religion when I considered it responsible for so many of the great tragedies in human history. For myself, I started my road back when I attended the wedding of a very close friend who is an orthodox Jew. I was always very close to this friend, yet I had never considered him as a potential partner due to his religion, and that made me realize that my own religion must be a core, fundamental part of me, and perhaps I wasn't as agnostic as I thought. That started my journey back to the church and was just the beginning of a path of learning that I am still on. I guess for me it is about following the path and taking one small step at a time.

Though I had been baptized as a Roman Catholic Christian, I never practiced my faith until God touched me personally at 30. If you could only imagine how much the Lord God loves you- His ecstatic embrace is beyond words - love,peace,joy all rolled up into one incredible experience and then some. With all the suffering we experience in life, it is understandable that we question if God exists, cares, loves us. I came to the Lord from a place of deep pain and anger. I reached out to Him through the Virgin Mary, as I believed that a woman could only understand a woman's pain. I learned to pray the scriptural rosary and I told her everything. I read about her appearances at Fatima Portugal and Medjugorje and her warnings to humanity. I continued to pray fervently, all the time eliminating pain and anger. Then about 3 months later, I had a dream that changed my life. In the dream, the Virgin Mary stood in front of me. She turned me around and I saw Jesus. Then they held me in an embrace. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke these words to me: "Release your pain and anger" I saw my self sobbing on Him. Then I no longer saw myself but felt being immersed in God - that ecstatic embrace of God's Love, Peace,Joy to the infinite degree. I yelled out to God "I love You" and then spoke to Jesus, telling Him what I wanted Him to fix. He said "I will take care of it". That day, I returned to the Lord - to worshipping Him and to wanting to live my life only for Him. There is nothing on earth worth losing God over. The Lord Jesus died for us. He was nailed to cross and shed His most precious Blood so that our sins might be forgiven and we might enjoy eternity with Him. God is our beginning. He is our end. He is our joy, true peace=Lord Jesus Christ. Do you want to believe in God? Do you want healing, comforting, guidance, love that no human can give? Talk to God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit from the deepest place in your heart. Bring Him every pain, every tear, every question, anything you wish. Offer Him your life. Ask Him to direct it, to heal you, to protect you, to make you entirly His. God wants to have a very close, personal, intimate, deep loving relationship with you and everyone ! Thank you God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and thank you for giving us the Blessed Virgin Mary as our spiritual mother and intercessor

Sometimes I think our difficulty in finding faith again is because we have for so long been taught that God is "out there" and so we seek God "out there" - beyond ourselves; our communities and one another. The biblical stories all have God coming to us - the whisper in the night - the calm in the air - the indwelling God whom we find by going within rather than outside of ourselves. To sit and really marvel at the complexity of the person you are and the potential within you that is animated by whatever is good can help to fan the "flicker" of faith into quite a fire. There are some really good authors out there including John Shelby Spong and Elizabeth Shussler Fiorenza - might be helpful to check out their musings.

Peace
Scott

Truthseeker;

I am a member of the UC and I do not believe in God. Like you, I believe in the theory of evolution and the big bang, which tells me that there is not a God controling our lives and our many miseries. I believe that Christ might have really existed but not as the son of God, but as a regular person with a new story to tell that has survived for all these years.

Yet, I go to church and participate in events, offer my time and give my money. I receive many personal benefits from being part of the congregation. I want our congregation to succeed and to help others. I have faith but it is not in God.

What I am illustrating is that faith does not have to come from one point but rather that for those who do not belive in God, faith must come from different sources. For me it is from community and from scripture.

Good luck with your faith

Truthseeker,

Faith is tricky, but vital, but it doesn't have to be faith in God or in Christ or a Christian lifestyle. To me faith is hope. I think that without knowing it almost everyone has faith. We have faith that when we go to bed at night we'll wake up in the morning. While faith in God/church/Christ is not nearly as simple or automatic, it is similar. Just by asking this question you have indicated that you have some sort of faith but you're struggling with the definition. I say screw the defintion. If going to church feels good to you, if you get some sort of fulfillment from it, then go. Limiting your idea of faith to believing in the western idea of God limits your ability to experience the wonder of this world. Live life, have fun, faith will come.

A lot of good responses here.

Keep searching. Keep questioning. I've had my faith tested a few times in my life - I've never really experienced true hardship on the level that many people in the world, or even right here on this board have, but my troubles seemed as real to me as any. In those dark times, I found solace in walking. Often, on those (frequently late night) walks, I often discovered that the simplest thing - a wisp of condensed breath hanging in the air, the sound of a wind chime - was the moment of clarity that I needed. I would stop and consider those tiny moments of beauty and then extend it - interconnect it to a web of beautiful and wonderous things I had witnessed and been a part of in my life. In these moments, I felt closer to God.

If you like Japanese poetry, there's a haiku (syllable-based poem) by a poet named Basho that really matches the feeling I have in those moments:

Old mill pond,
A frog leaps in -
The sound of water.

The "old mill pond" can represent your mental state, your consciousness, your soul - whatever needs to be renewed. The sudden, unexpected arrival of a frog splashing into the water breaks up that old stagnant surface and sends ripples across the water. Your mind may be outwardly the same, but there is something different within.

At other times, prayer - real heartfelt prayer, not a litany of syllables dredged up from memory - helped me to get through the darkness.

One of the parts of the United Church's "A New Creed" that I love the most:

"We are not alone,
we live in God's world."

If you believe in God, or if you don't - it's important to believe that you are not alone.

It's difficult to admit that one has lost faith. For me, I lost it almost 10 years ago in second year of university. I now recognize God in the complexity of the world, from the molecular level to the level of human societies, beyond Western definitions yet still includes them. My guiding light is the historical Jesus, someone who understood compassion and humanity in the face of capitalist Roman occupation.

I've re-joined the community of believers, as someone who understands and appreciates the beautiful things that comes from faith, and I've regained the joys and hopes of being part of a community of trust and a pastoral culture of care for one another, in the name of God and example of Jesus.

I've lost my childhood faith, but regained an adult one that is flexible, wiser, and capable to balance the world's realities with the idealisms of religious faith.

I hope that helps in some way. Peace.

You are on a journey that many of us are on. In fact, I am expecting to be on the journey as long as I live. For me "faith" is not something or someplace where one arrives and the journey is over. I think that in many United Churches you will find good company - few will claim they have "arrived" and have all the answers. I suspect that those who have all the answers have avoided asking all the questions. I am not sure I will ever get to the end of the questions.

I believe in evolution. I believe in God. I have no difficulty with that. Today's belief in "God" is different from what it was on some other day in the past - and tomorrow may be very different again.

For me, the biblical versions of creation were never intended to be taken literally or to be understood as a record of "how" creation happened. They are poems or paintings of creation not ever intended to be scientific or historical.

Many in United Churches could identify very closely with where you are. My sense is that you have not "lost faith" - you have left behind an immature faith . I see that not as loss but as gain - but maturing can be a tough and long process.

Check out the United Church's new statement of faith called Song of Faith:
www.united-church.ca/ucc/songfaith/

Not all United Churches are at the same place in their being open to the questions - but there are churches out there (United and others ) who would be quite opoen to sharing journey with you.

Great post Boaz
You sait it well. Another place to look is www.progressivechristianity.ca. They are certainly open to all people who are questioning.

Maybe all you miss is the social structure of the church? Join a club or something. This may sound glib but I'm not trying to be cheeky. I can see the attraction of regularly meeting like minded people but I can get this in many environments without having to believe blindly in something which to me cannot logically exist.

I sympathize with your loss of faith. People often look at our world and think "how can a good god allow all this to happen?" Someone pointed out to me that there is a flaw in the question. If your looking at some bit of suffering or injustice, you know it is bad because you know what is good, or have an idea how something ought to be. If there is such a thing as transcendent goodness, or a moral law, by which we judge good and evil, then there has to be a moral law giver. Nature is amoral. It doesn't care about good and evil, there has to be something outside all this which gives moral quality. So then, if you ask the above question in order to show that God doesn't exist, the fact that you are appealing to a moral law shows that God does exist.

(I'm not the best at explaining the above argument. If you go to rzim.org and check out the "Just thinking current braodcast" and archieves, your bound to find a Q&A session where Ravi Zacharias explains this well.)

God is there. If you want, go back to Him. God loves you so much that He was willing to watch His Son die to forgive us. And He rose again from the dead. He did it happily so we could be made right and with Him for eternity. Read Hebrews 12:2-3 "...for the joy set before him..."

God Bless!

Rob.

You can tell...they really want you.

you can tell...they really want you

Of course we do! When you have faith, and find someone who is seeking that faith, it is hard not to say something. Being surround by a faith community is a very deep and propound experience. In my opinion, there is nothing better. I don't think you can replace that with a club of any sort unless it also fulfills some level of spirtual need. I belong to various clubs and enjoy that level of community, but there is a spark in the faith community that fills the void that all these great people have been talking about. And unless you've been there, as they say "you don't know what you're missing"!

I'm not missing anything actually. I have come to a logical view that is based on facts and evidence that god does not exist. Ergo I need no spirituality in my life as it has no function or benefit.

I do see that some people do need some kind of spirituality though...in which case might I suggest yoga?

Atheisto seems to have it all together, but would not be here if he/she were not really seeking truth. And I think that is great!

Suggestions for regaining faith:

1. Go to biblegateway.com and do a word search (complete word only) on the word faith in the bible. It will give you all the occurances of the word faith in the bible. Read the scriptures, particularly in the new testament by Jesus himself, that come up. That will give you an idea of what Jesus considers faith to be.

2. Read the bible daily. I suggest starting with the book of John. The bible contains your answers. If you are lazy like me, get the bible on cd and listen to it on the way to work. You can also listen to it at biblegateway.

If you want to understand God, read the word. He will meet you there.

Hi Truthseeker,

I can identify with you. I had faith then lost it when I was thinking about ordination in the United Church. I couldn't swallow it all. I left the church for over 9 years and just recently returned (2 years ago) to a United Church congregation that is a good place to inquire without any answers - and you don't leave your disbelief or brain at the door.

I noticed that you had a reply from "barramedic" to check out the Progressive Christianity web-site. This is an excellent site. You might check out West Hill United Church's web-site (www.westhill.net) if you want a community that gathers weekly and has the same principles. The grass-roots of Progressive Christianity is the West Hill community. My husband and I read an article 2 years ago in the Toronto Star on this community and the minister - and we went to "check them out" and stayed.

All the best in your journey,
JM

Thanks and keep it coming...
I appreciate the frankness of the discussion thus far. Now I am going to add a few things that may help to explain my position fuurther.
Atheisto: I have communal groups. They do not replace the void left by my loss of faith(it's okay if that is your way though).
I strongly believe that there is an energy greater than myself out there and it has been evident in things that happened throughout the course of my life, however, I cannot accept the scriptures as anything other than a book on morality and love. I am quite disappointed by the ill usage of the bible in the condemnation and subjugation of people from varied backgrounds. I feel a sense of kindredship with the idea of Christ as a person and feel that he was one amongst us who promoted the beauty of positive energy.
Now, having said that, I am not sure where to go from here. I have felt a great deal of bitterness about the amount of hypocrisy found inside a lot of churches. However, I would be no better than those responsible if I allow such negative thoughts to overwhelm and pervade my positiveness.
During my early childhood I fell into a deep (fish farm), man made tank. There were only two other kids present and I could not swim. After going under a couple of times, I felt myself being lifted from beneath my feet until my arms went above the edge of the tank and with some assistance I was able to scramble out. Now I revisited the location when I was older and to this day I am unable to explain how I was pushed from the depts of that tank. That to me symbolises an energy beyond myself, and this idea has been supported throughout my life by other instances where I by myself would not have been enough.
Again, where do I go from here? I guess I do have faith, but I am wary of the negative imagery I have of the church, and I cannot fully put words to my faith.
Is it that our combined positiveness is god? Is that why the church says god dwells inside all of us?
Still searching...

Now this is the conversation I thought I would find on this site. I admit I was a bit put off by the Tom Cruise/Katie Wedding chat- you can find that anyplace. But this is more like it and I so appreciate the honesty of all participants, even or maybe especailly Atheisto...faith is not faith if it doesn't stand up to challenges.

I really want to underline something that was suggested earlier. If you feel you have lost your faith or never had much to begin with, DO check out some of the current writers on this subject. Try John Selby Spong both in print and on line where he answers questionsabou the divinity of Christ and how other faiths intersect with the Chrisitan tradition. He really helped me get over the big challenge of a faith that seemed to suggest WE were the only ones who would get to heaven-I just found that ridiculously arrogant and UNCHRISTIAN.

But also check out an amazing little book called The Elephant Talks to God by a Canadian author from New Brunswick(?) Dale Estey. I had never heard of this guy but this little book is endorsed both by George Elliot Clarke (a great NS-black-Canadian poet and national treasure) and Peter Short who just finished a term as Moderator of the United Church, so I guess I just wasn't payng attention!

I am very happy that the United Church was there when I was ready to believe again and there are many Affirming congregations where those who are gay will find others, both gay and straight who worship happily together with clergy who are both gay and straight. And atheists are welcome to come and ask questions, just like on this site.

I have known of one person who has lost their faith, or better put, didn't know where it had gone - it was all dark. Her soul was wounded in a way I couldn't understand. She had gone through the loss of several loved ones in very close succession. I was there for her in the funerals and the music, but her energy was gone from her. I felt that time was all I could measure her by - and walking near her, by saying I'm here, use me to understand or to gain insight. But she has not come near. She is needing her space to understand and sort it out. I don't know the words to tell her. It is very hard. I feel like I've failed her by not being able to have the answers, to 'fix' her spiritual malaise. But my faith says to me, trust in her strength. It is there.

Truthseeker, I empathize and can relate. My story is different in that I was brought up with a strict Roman Catholic upbringing (and I actually loved it) but lost my connection with the Church after my teenage years to various reasons. However, I truly felt that somehow God was always with me (I know that sounds cheesy). I never stopped believing in Him even though I started looking into other religions and churches.

To my surprise, I connected with Buddhism - but the funny thing was that I couldn't help but hear Jesus' voice in almost all of Buddha's famous sayings. To make it a long story short, I drew inspiration from other sources to strengthen and renew my faith. However, looking for a church or group to match my spirituality, location and schedule was tough. I felt alone at times during this search - and had to reach deep down.

I also had to learn how to separate my familiarity and knowledge in any particular institution/organization/group of people, from my own personal relationship with God. In your search, you'll have questions, and get lots of answers. If the answers don't seem 'complete', ask again and do not be afraid to speak from your heart and mind in your exploration. Hope this helps...

God Bless,

Parakletos

I am finding this discussion thread very moving. Thanks everybody for sharing their struggles, their searches and their insights.

I really wrestled with the idea of God when I was a teenager, but found those doubts and questions eased when I started to preach. In the process of preparing a sermon, I felt "inspired," I know that sounds presumptuous, but my sense was that I was being addressed, whether from my own creativity or beyond isn't really important to me anymore.

I find the concept of God meaningful, but no longer as an abstract intellectual question. I still wrestle with the meaning of God, but it seems to me that any attempt to define the nature of God too clearly will be a violation of the commandment not to make and worship idols.

The passage in 1 John 4 that says "God is love" is meaningful to me. That can be understood either metaphorically or literally, and I am open to either one.

For ethical reasons, I think it is important that we not try to explain suffering too much. If we defend God's justice by explaining suffering, we end up believing that people deserve their suffering, and that undercuts our compassionate response.

Sorry for a scattered meandering response!

Peace be upon you all!

I tried being an atheist for a time twice in my life, but it wasn't enough for me. What I found was missing in my life was a four-letter word - Hope. Hope that I could make a difference, hope that I could become a better person, hope that I could muddle through my life not completely alone, hope that the world would become a saner place, hope that a spiritual journey did not mean ignoring Darwin, Copernicus and Einstein. And except for George Bush (okay, I shouldn't be so flippant), my spiritual journey has been enriched and deepend by my faith community in many ways. And my God as well, though She/He still needs to work on improving my sense of humor...

So basically you missed an imaginary friend?

I have all the hopes you have and aspire to them too. We atheists have just come to the realisation that there are no facts or evidence at all to support a supreme being and to continually search for one is a waste of time. We also realise that human beings need no spiritual influence in our lives and we can survive very well without it.

Personally, as a scientist, I feel that religion and science are incompatible. The very notion of faith means that you need to eschew facts or logic, two things necessary for scientific discovery.

I believe in evolution in the sense of humans as animals and I also believe in the evolution of thinking and ideas such as acceptance of certain things that may not have been accepted years ago.

I also think that the declining numbers of believers in Canada is a form of evolution too. The evolution of a population that will question that which was thought unquestionable.

Atheisto:
It is good to question and find what's meaningful in our own individual lives, it is not good to degrade or devalue the experiences of others. Again I say to you, congratulations on finding your path. However, the discussion thus far is about what many people like myself experience; faith based on evidence, which we may not be able to explain at the moment, but seek further understanding. My belief is not based on the tales contained in the bible or any other such medium, but based on my life experiences. I actually think there is a scientific explanation to all this, but that still leads me directly to an energy of which I am only a minute part.
Wonderful discussion all.

I see faith as trust...

I left a "difficult" church while in my early 20's, and it felt like I had lost my family as well. Later, I found the most welcoming church. It was "open arms" all the way, the best kind of love. I trust my "spirit-self" here.

Read. Write. Search.

Reading helps you to discover your own beliefs and how they fit within the context of a particular religious faith.

Write down your thoughts. Write a journal. Write to God/s. It may help you to clarify some things in your head.

Search on the internet for people that feel similarly ... there are websites for everything. And perhaps consider the Unitarian Universalist church ... they welcome people of all beliefs and non-beliefs that are searching like you. Worth trying.

:-)

Truthseeker:

Part of the reason there is so much suffering in the world is because God gave us Free Will; the ability to choose for ourselves and make decisions. Very often we don't choose wisely or stop to consider how our choices affect other people. Consequently people hurt us and we hurt them without intending to or being aware of it perhaps.

I have studied the why of physical suffering and I'm unable to say there is an answer. There is a theory that it greatly benefits some people: 'God puts us on our backs so that we may look up'. We may also learn much gratitude for our good health and sound bodies after we have been ill for a time and gotten well again. We may also have empathy for other people who suffer.

If Mrs. Jones is ill and I bring her a bowl of hot soup I have learned to care about other people and to have compassion. Perhaps we'd never learn this if there was no suffering? Life I believe is a school for learning and learning 'LOVE' most of all.

I do know that suffering can also have the opposite effect which is to become bitter and curse life and/or God.

We have to recognize that our thinking processes are very important. 'As A Man Thinketh So Is He'. What you think about on a daily basis determines how your life will be and the outcome of it to a large extent. You can choose to think good ( positive) and that every experience has a meaning and a reason (even suffering) or you can choose to think badly (negative).

I believe in the Universal Law : 'As we give so shall we receive' or 'What goes around comes around'. I love to give out lots of love and to receive lots of love back in return. God is Love. I don't really believe you can ever truly lose God or that He can lose you. God is like the ocean and we are the drops in the ocean, a part of God.

Love, Light, and Peace!

Hi Truthseeker,
Good luck on your journey. It is confusing sometimes, isn't it? I agree with Boaz that the journey can be lifelong. I think asking questions, being a 'seeker' makes your faith grow stronger. As a child, religion seemed simple to me. I took everything at face-value, and didn't think too much beyond that. Now as an adult, I want to try to connect some of the missing dots - there are so many ways to interpret the Bible, it's hard to know what to believe sometimes. There are some great authors out there that I find really make you think - Spong & Borg both have interesting viewpoints just to name a couple.

Regarding the whole evolution versus Bible - I am one of many Christians that believes in evolution AND I believe in the Bible. I really don't understand why people say you can't believe in both. I believe the Bible is meant to be about our relationship with God, not a literal history book. It hurts me when I hear people hurl about bits of scripture like bullets against people who don't have the same understanding as them - it seems so wrong, and I think a lot of people who have a negative opinion about Christianity and organized religion is because some of these Bible 'bullets' are so hurtful. It's no wonder that many say they want no part of that.

I am a member of the UC, and am so glad to be part of a church that welcomes questions and doesn't insist on 'blind' faith to be considered faithful.

I felt the same way last year. I thought a lot about everything and God wasn't fitting into any of the logic. I was scared that if there was a god that I would go to hell for not believing. Then I realized that gods are just superstitions.

Let me elebourate. You know the superstition about breaking a mirror meaning seven years of bad luck? That is such a stupid thing to believe in but people still do it, hundreds of years after the thought was concieved. You have to ask yourself why such logical civilizations such as Canada and the US, would stoop so low as to avoid breaking mirrors for fear of bad luck. Well, the answer is that we avoid breaking mirrors, just in case the superstition is true. This "Just in Case" nature of us as humans is why so many people who have lost their faith still believe in gods today.

You people shouldn't worry if your faith grows weary. It just means that your logic grows stronger. There are no gods. There is not one god either. There are no messiahs and there is no such thing as luck. This is the word of logic. A friggen men!!!

Killer_Rabbit:
A superstition is something that is groundless. My belief in an energy greater than myself is based on experiential evidence and an awareness that goes beyond simple logic. Logic is often based on evidence, but what if the evidence is not yet evident?? It does not change what is.

Killer rabbit.......

Its O.K. if you don't believe in God but I do hope you are working towards making the world a better place for all of us to live in. If there is no god then we are gods....right? Its up to us to help create a better world.

We can all work towards this by realizing first of all that OUR THOUGHTS HAVE POWER. What we think about ourselves,other people, the world, all day long can become true for us, our reality. We choose and we create in our lives what we wish to create. We have free will to make good choices or bad choices. We are responsible for ourselves and in some measure for those around us if we are loving people.

I would ask you and everyone reading this to kind of stand outside yourself so to speak and become aware of your very own thoughts going on in your head all day long ! What are you thinking ? Are you thinking good about people and about life? Or are you thinking bad and cursing and damning yourself along with everyone and everything else?

If you think good and positive thoughts you will bring good and positive into your own life. If you think bad you will bring everything bad into your life. Its your choice and its that simple. Choose love and life or choose hate and destruction.

I'm not there yet but I'm learning....LOL. There are universal laws in place. 'As you give so shall you receive' or 'What goes around comes around' or 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. This is not superstition ! It is real and it determines what kind of life you will have. Give good and you will get good back ( 9 times out of 10). Give evil and you will get evil back almost always.

Lets all work together to think good about ourselves first of all and then it follows that we will think good about other people. We will become loving people. Those around us will generally respond by being loving back to us. Do you realize that we can change the world like this? We can live in paradise while on earth. It all begins with our thoughts.......Try it and see! Everything you do is a thought before it becomes an action. Right?

P.S. I do believe in God. I look at my body and it isn't a mirage. I have body parts and they all work together like a clock works. Its beyond superstition. Its incdredible. Its a living walking miracle. However.....never in my life have I tried to convince anyone that God is real. Each to his/her own beliefs and whatever works to make a happy life. Different strokes for different folks!

You are loved! You are beautiful! You are important! I care about you!

Love, Light and Peace. Have a wonderful day everybody.

I'm not degrading other people's convictions etc. I'm supplying the other side of the coin which is basically...there is no need for faith so don't waste your time.

Lots of good discussion here. I have to say as a scientist and someone who had no church or faith based connection until my adult life I have come to a place where science and faith coexist. The greatest scientific minds the world has ever known all, in the end, speak of God. Call it energy, oneness, the ultimate connectedness of all species, there is something beyond our understanding that pulls it all together. For a good scientific study try out "What the bleep do we know" All but one of the commentators in this wonderful film are at the top of their respective fields (Stanford, MIT, Univ. Penn. etc etc. ) they all point to God. As for the crap that exisits , and why doesn't God intervene? Why bother. It is our own doing. As a species we are hopefully evolving to a higher understanding to pull ourselves out of the mess. Kierkegaard speaks of the "knights of infinite resignation.. " They have existed for centuries, Jesus, Moses, Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Martin Luther King... Many lesser known men and women. They have risen above to a new level of understanding and connectedness to God. Our job is to get there, Thats why we are here. The more time we spend trying to figure it out the deeper the hole becomes and the more time we waste not focused on what we should be doing. It isn't that difficult. Love your neighbour as you love yourself. Blowing it off in search of more scientific answers is just a cop out. Lets get on with the real business of living as God had hoped for us. We have all we need. That is faith for me. I have found that supported and nurtured in the UC. The structures and the bible are 2000 year old constructs that we need to reformulate for our own understanding and ACTION. Borg's book "The Heart of Christianity " crystallizes this for me in a 21st century context. It is the kind of book that is welcomed and debated openly in the united church and is one of the rasons I have found my faith in this community.
Shalom Truthseeker AND Atheisto,
TG

TM. When I was booted out of the United Church or rather told I was no longer welcome because of my stand of ordaining homosexual ministers. I also felt confused and lost. However, In my heart I remembered the parable of the 99 sheep and one went astray. So I just left it in the Lord's hand and prayed Lord if I am one of your sheep, I know you will find me. Today my faith is stronger than ever I have experienced many times that the Lord was there for me even during my darkest hours.

athesto Didnt I ask you before if satan had sent you to this site to confuse those who seek the Lord with all their hearts and minds?

we are all in different places - some folks idea of "believing" is totally different from others, as you may have noticed

Here's an idea: journal - write letters to someone who is listening (maybe it isn't "God" right off) - take time to write these letters everyday about what you are thinking along these lines. I read a short book called "Prayers from an Unbeliever" - it isn't the typical mushy "Oh, Lets all be Christian!!!" - and I was really impressed with the thought processes that could happen.

starting point - are you a good person, improving this world? Great!
next point - as Marcus Borg says (paraphrased), I don't believe in a God who hurts good people
I do believe in Spirit/God that leads us to goodness and to connection with each other in the Spirit
I do believe in God who's "heart" is broken by the sadness in this world, and calls us to make the world a better place - you are probably doing that from your own spot

Hugs! You are welcome as a companion on the journey. By the way I know several church people, ministers too, who question, in moments of frustration, whether a church is more appropriate than an environmental organization or a Mission organization - secular is good too! But Spirit is Awesome, and Spong & Borg are great authors -

Several people have mentioned Borg. I also found his books very helpful on my spiritual journey. Indeed it was his book "The Heart of Christianity", combined with discovering the United Church, that led me to me baptised at the age of 46, after being an atheist most of my life. I must say, though, I don't care as much for Spong. I didn't find his books helpful. In fact I found reading Spong's books made me want to stay an atheist.

But Marcus Borgs books are wonderful. He just published a new one called
"Jesus: Uncovering the Life, Teachings, and Relevance of a Religious Revolutionary", which I have purchased but not yet read.

I've just checked in this discussion and agree with reading Borg and Spong...both gave me different takes on Christianity. I also have read Harpur, but was not thrilled with his Pagan Christ....like where's the 'news'. Apologies if my comments show that I've missed a few points.

In response to Atheisto, I agree that there probably is not be a supreme being, but as someone who has worked in science education, I think that we can explore quantum physics to explain some of our experiences of 'God'. That can reconncile with our spiritual experiences that some have with energy modalities/healing/wellness. Some people feel better calling the energy they experience as Spirit. Others just understand it as energy.

In her book, World as Lover, World as Self, Joanna Macy, a Buddhist says that we have evolved as a species that needs a spiritual experience or religion or similiar (I read it a few years ago) Ancient culures did not have science to explain their world and so developed their beliefs....we as organisms still find value in having a faith, or some beliefs...and you can reconcile science and failth if you construct it differntly than the greater culture defines it....maybe some call it 'new age'....it works if we understand a faith like that, rather than anthropomorphizing it. All that said, I simply say, to avoid a long discourse, that I believe in God/Goddess/Spirit.

also read Charlene Spretnak (an eco-feminist?) States of Grace.

Another interesting website is 'cultural creatives'. Thanks for your time.

I sat with this one, not really wanting to post. Yet, I felt compelled. I think that "lost completely" it is hard to get any thing back. Lost keys are misplaced. Keys lost completely are forever gond. I think we misplace our faith. I do not think faith is ever lost. Even being an athiest requires faith. The difference is in beliefs. One believes in God or one does not. Both require faith. Even if it is faith in what you do not believe in.
I once thought I had lost faith. It was merely a misunderstanding.
My faith was definitely stripped bare. I did not believe in organized religion. I did not believe in the interpretations offered to me. I did not believe in most peoples version of God. Stripped completely down, II could see I obviously believed in "something". I started from there. I quit thinking of the God I did not believe in; the wrathful, hand in everything, judgement based, punishment inflicting... When I stripped it of all I did not believe. I could see clearly that which I did believe.
People say that we must believe and have faith. Think about that for a minute. Believing is the conviction that something is right, exists, or is true. Faith is trust in what cannot be demonstrated or proven by logical thought. Faith is trying to believe in something that cannot be proven as right, as existing or as true.
Faith can evolve into a belief. Belief can never evolve into faith. Once you believe something there is no room for faith. Once you are certain, you either have knowledge or ignorance. It is either right or wrong, when you are certain. That, to me is not faith. It is fact.
Stripped down to what I did not belive, I was left with faith.

I was born and raised an RC but my bitter disappointment at the failure of Vatican II as well as a number of other events in my life led me to walk away from it when I was about 30. For a number of years I experimented with Buddhism, agnosticism and even atheism. Nothing fit right.

My wife brought me to the UCC (her grandfather was a former moderator) in a congregation with an open minded pastor. I very quickly discovered that I was a very liberal, very progressive Christian. I felt like a very rare bird. It was at that point that I discovered writers, researchers and thinkers like Marcus Borg, Walter Wink and John Spong and a whole raft of others like them. It felt like I had come home. I have also had to endure a whole lot of condemnation and ridicule from those Christians of a more fundamentalist and evangelical nature.

I rejoive in the inclusiveness, opemness and the general liberalism of the United Church of Canada.

Take a look at the following video, and see if you can see God in this, or at least hope.

Its called "Cindy".

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7753966600005050675&sourceid=se...

There's an old joke that goes like this.

'A bishop comes before the holy father and begs him for help. "Holy father , holy father, help me," he begs. "I fear I have lost my faith and don't know what to do about it. Please help me, father." The pope leans in close to him and whispers in his ear "Fake it."

A person's faith comes from within. It's internal. That fact that you are asking this question implies to me that you haven't 'lost' your faith completely so much as you are finding it strongly challenged. Talk to your friends and minister about this issue if you can and spend a great deal of time thinking on it yourself. Your faith will grow stronger for you examining it. You shouldn't be afraid to question it but you can't be afraid of the answers you may find as well.

I know this may not be what you were looking for, but I hope it helps. Try living your life the way you know it should be lived, acting towards others the way you know you should act, and I think you will find your faith again somewhere along that path. God bless you.

I think this is something alot of people struggle with. I think the fact that you're asking the question suggests that you haven't lost your faith completely. I don't have any great answers for you. I just wanted you to know you're not alone.

Thanks all....I find this discussion very engaging, caring and somewhat freeing. Thanks UC for creating this opportunity.
The more posts that are made, the clearer my perspective becomes. I find this very refreshing and uplifting. Good going all.

I lost my faith at 26. Don't know why, really. It just disappeared into a black hole. It was scary, because I'd ALWAYS believed in God, etc, and then just didn't.

I just accepted it. Over the course of the ten years subsequent, a new faith arose. I believe in energy. I pray in my ways. I hang out with a United Church, but am not baptised and don't participate in some aspects.

I feel my relatively new faith is vague but very solid, grounded, real, and helpful for me.

So, my advice is to trust that if there is something to have faith in, it will let itself be found by you. In the meantime, relax, stay open, ponder, live. What needs to be will come.