I think it's also helpful to try to keep children away from kiddy-targeted advertising which has got incredibly cynical... that means curbing television time. (Even the Star would be very loathe to say that.  -- Torstar Media Group Television and Torstar Corp. wouldn't like it at all!) The advertising industry is also energetic in its attempts to prematurely sexualise kids to hook them into cosmetics and "fashion" awareness.

I think what you're saying is part of the problem though Mike. It shouldn't matter what the adverts etc make your children want if they're not gonig to get it anyway. Parents blame the media for making their child want the ipod or the clothes etc yet it is the parents who buy it for them in the end. I think parents need to stop blaming society and the media and look to their own parenting skills and take responsibility.

Well said BethanyK - your parents raised a wise young woman.

Mike - you raise an important point about the sexualization of children - I think this is a huge problem too.   The boundaries between childhood, teens, and adulthood have almost disappeared in some ways - but maybe that's another discussion.

I would add to the list:

point out clearly differences they see in other, "poorer" families or help out at the food bank, be in dialog

teach them money skills and budgeting

expect them to get a job as soon as they are allowed to

involve them in decision making as age permits expecting that they argue their point logically

celebrate thanksgiving

There is some truth in all this talk about spoiled kids and parents who allow the spoiling.  However, raising kids without spoiling can lead to just as much parental heartache.  One of my kids continually tells us what bad parents we were because we didn't buy everything that was demanded.

I don't want to sound rude or anything because i'm not a parent but sounds to me that your child is just being ungrateful and rude you to kay and hopefully will grow out of that. I see absolutely nothing wrong with not giving in to every demand and I'm sure you're a great parent.

kay,

sometimes you have to wait until your kids have their own kids and start walking in your shoes for them to have some insight....

Thanks for the kind comments.  Maybe we have to accept that sometimes doing what we think is best isn't garanteed to have the effect we hoped for.  This kid of mine is now a parent and raising her kids opposite to the way we raised her and her siblings.  The grandkids don't throw temper tantrums to get more stuff - they only have to say they want it.   Small wishes are granted instantly (candy, chips, pop etc)  more expensive things arrive for gifts at Christmas, birthdays and other special days through the year.

Something many parents are "guilty" of, I think, it their consumption of pills and medications for what are often very trivial complaints. There is an extraordinary level of pharmaceutical consumption in Canada, but as well there are all the vitamins, supplements, homeopathics, herbal medicines, over-the-counter pain killers and antacids and the rest of it.... 

It gives a message that drugs are to solve problems. If that's the case, what's wrong with taking them for fun?

It might be wise to medicate more selectively, to take pills discretely and to make their purpose clear. And not leave containers lying around or tumbling from the bathroom cabinet... modelling drug consumption is pretty common as I've seen it.

AS FOR society's influence... WE are society. We get the media we demand. They tend to mirror OUR values, conceits, biases and mistakes.

kay,

I my family dynamics, it was my oldest sister who took this attitude towards my parents. She had an ingrown sense of being the one who didn't get enough, while we other three just had it easy and were everything given. While some of it was true (financially my parents were struggeling when my oldest sister grew up, while I as the youngest, had the benefit that they didn't have to pay for all the other ones anymore...

I remember that my mom must have suffered quiet a bit from those accusations, because when she was facing her cancer operation, she wrote a letter to each of us (I was in my early 20ties, my oldest sister ten yrs older- and I did not understand why she kept stressing in her letter that she regretted that she couldn't give us everything. I for my part, had never felt I had  missed anything.

You're right kay - there are no guarantees - that much is certain. 

I remember going to a conference years ago on mothers & daughters - on the front of the programme was a memorable comic - a woman speaking -

"My mother did "x" and I didn't like it, so when I became a parent I did "opposite of x"

She goes on for several examples.

Then says -

"Now my daughter is all grown up - and she's just like my mother."

It can be quite true that as 'children' age, rather than taking on similar characteristics, they may actually move in the opposite direction,  differentiating themselves and trying to establish their own identities.  It's a curious process.

true too - that instant gratification, my kids will want for nothing style - I've seen some of that too.  It worries me then - who will hop to attention & meet the kids needs when mom's not there, or the money's not there?    Whole different set of values.

good point mike re the meds - no twinges of pain, or even discomfort,  for this generation! 

I have some issues with:

"3. CREATE A BRIBE-FREE HOME. Bribes work in the moment, but parents (and children) pay a high price for bribery in the long run. You may have to pay for every ounce of cooperation in the future."

How do you define bribery?  What's the difference between bribery and earned rewards?  When kids are little about the only thing they can contribute is their good behaviour - does that mean we shouldn't reward it?  This is much to facile a rule (although that would be true of most of the article, imnsho)

"4. AVOID DEAL-MAKING. Negotiations have their place, especially in the courtroom, care dealership, and so on. Show your child firsthand that not every aspect of life and its demands is a deal to be negotiated till midnight."

Again, way, way, WAY too overgeneralised.  Learning to compromise and negotiate are some of the most important skills you can teach your child.  Yes, there is a time and place for hard and fast rules, but generally speaking, those times and places are rare.

"5. BE THE BOSS. I don’t mean a cruel, tyrannical marine boot camp officer kind of boss. I mean a boss who understands and is comfortable with the leadership and authoritative role of a parent. “Because I say so” would not be an especially good mantra for all of parenting and home life, but it sure has its place at times."

"Because I say so" should be completely banned from parental vocabulary.  If you can't explain why something is so, then that is a deficiency in you, not in your child.  That doesn't mean they will always be able to fully understand the explanation, but rules without reasons are a scourge on society, and are lazy parenting.

"8. REWARD EFFORT NOT PRODUCT. The self-esteem movement was a bust. Children do not gain self-confidence by shallow flattery and trophies for doing little. True competence comes through learning real skills and lessons that teach the child that he or she can handle things and life."

This one fascinates me.  The actual title is something I agree with, but it appears unrelated to the text.  And I find it hugely interesting that the writer wants us to teach "real life skills" when much of the rest of the article discourages precisely that.  Well, unless unthinking obedience is a "real life skill".  I agree that self esteem must be based in reality, but anyone who lives with an introverted and/or shy child knows that what seems like small effort for some may be monumental for others.  I also strongly believe that for young children, genuine effort is worth way more than actual acheivements.  Those will come in time, but only if the child has already learned to love trying, and learned not to be afraid of making mistakes.

RevMatt said ""Because I say so" should be completely banned from parental vocabulary."  True, but I would refine your comments here.  "I'll explain later" should be a viable answer until an opportune time (within reason) arises.  Children, as they enter the argumentative stage, come to realize that argument is a great delaying tactic, and when time is at a premium (eg in the grocery check-out line, or when late getting out the door to an important appointment), it can be used to extract concessions from an already harried parent. You see this in the classroom too. My response, if in the middle of a lesson as time permits and if the issue has nothing to do with the learning objectives (even the larger life lessons): I'll be glad to stay after class to explain it further to you. Most students don't want the explanation, they're just using the argument as a way of avoiding doing work. Also, a child/student will not necessarily accept the explanation as valid, and if their point of view is their own benefit while the parent's or teacher's is the benefit of the whole family or class, there is no end to the argument.

RevMatt - there is a difference between bribery.  A bribe is offered first - ie  If you get an A on your finals, we will buy you a bike.    A reward is given after - Oh, I'm so proud that you worked hard and got an A.  Maybe we could celebrate.  Let's go out and pick out a new bicycle. 

If you offer the bribe first, the kids can think about it and decide it isn't worth the effort, or they can up the ante.    But if you let them know that you expect the best they might work towards it and success is its own reward.  Anything more that you give them is in celebration. 

spiritbear - good point.  Certainly "we'll talk about it later" is fair game, although you do have to actually talk about it later :)

seeler - really?  I often explain to my daughter the consequences of her actions ahead of time, both positive and negative.  I buy your reasoning as it relates to things that they need to do, like school work or mandatory chores.  We actually don't have an allowance for our daughter for that very reason.  Household chores are required, not something for which there is a reward.  But if she wants something, then we have a negotiation.  If it is something she needs, she can convince us, and if we are convinced, we'll get it.  If it is something she wants, she knows that she can work for the money by doing extra chores.  That's not bribery, that's work.

So maybe we are saying the same thing, but the heart of the matter is not whether she knows ahead of time, but whether it is something we would consider a core requirement, versus something extra?  Does that make sense?

I think it does make sense RevMatt; I also like seeler's explanation of the difference.  I had the sense from the article that indeed some folks "pay" or bribe their kids for every single thing they do - pick up your socks - 10 cents etc.  They don't have those 'core requirements' that you speak of - so it's a different situation.  

I agree that "rules" need a basis.  And that some explanation goes on endlessly with no fruitful outcome.  And sometimes kids do just need to heed what parents say - safety issues come to mind as a non-negotiable and needing the child's immediate response.    

That doesn't mean the negotiating skills are not taught in other situations.  But I do sometimes overhear parents "reasoning" with toddlers - explaining at length as if they have fully adult rational brains, and if the parent just explains, then the child will see the light and do what is asked.   Not very effective, since that little brain is still under major development.    Child's age is an important factor.  

I do agree  - the article was naturally very short - only small snips to think about! 

Oh my goodness Beshpin!  You and I just said something similar!   

My wife believes that it isn't bribery if you reward children for good behaviour. An example would be if you put in these eye drops I will give you the seven dollars you want in exchange for co-operating. This is something my our son has tried to negotiate with us, he is only six years old. Anyway my wife believes it is only bribery when you reward bad behaviour as opposed to good behaviour. I don't agree.

RevMatt - It seems to me that consequences are something else again.  As is negotiation.

Consequences - you want very much to watch a special program this evening.  If you have your homework done and your pajamas on, you can watch it.   

Negotiation might be:    Dad, I'm going on a trip with my friend and his dad this weekend.  Can I have an extra $20 to spend while I'm away?  

Can you think of a way you could earn it?

How about I split that pile of wood in the yard?

Split it and throw it in the basement and I'll pay you $25.   How's that?

Dreamerman,

I feel that in health matters it's important to stay as close to reallity as possible, because kids need to learn to take care of their health, which often is uncomfortable, and live through it, without having it "sweetened"too much, otherwise they end up with an attitude Mike describes further up on this thread- popping in a drug for everything- or avoiding unconfortable things all together (dentist work, vaccinations, regular bloodwork).

Who pays you for taking care of you health? In todays health system, you almost have to aggressively follow through with being after your doctor for specialist referrals or keep calling in to hear test results or you fall through the cracks. Even worse, if you don't have a family doctor.

So I would rather try to bring across the attitude 'This isn't pleasant, but it needs to be done, because health is important."

Now, as we all reward ourselves sometimes when we mastered something difficult, there could be a reward at the end that best has some connection with the issue- like- when you have taken all your eye drops and the infection is out of your eyes so you are allowed back in school/public, we go to the movies. Or more immediate- while you close your eyes after the eye drops and wait for them to work,to calm yourself, you sit in your favorite rocking chair and listen to a special story/music/me reading you a book..

Or, when my son was so terryfied of getting the vaccination that he couldn't eat breakfast, I took him out for breakfast afterwards.

all I grt to do with my kids is love them and understand that  90% of the things I have issue with them about are because of my partner and I:  our unresolved issues in relationship as well as personally.

So, getting all uptight about a "spoiled" kid ain't gonna help me. 

as far as material things go, we don't have those, really. We barely get by.  I spend  a lot of cash and exchange work for extracurricular activities for them.  I reward them for having joined a weird world and hope that I can gift to them reasons to want to care for it.   So it is that we don't have a mortgage but my kids have dance, music and GG.  They have love in life, they have activity and some day even when their Dad and Mom are eeking out senior citizenry on welfare the kids won't have to look down on themselves or us for being 'poor" because  the kids will have less depression & confusion than their parents did, have healthier friends and have an option for fun that isn't self-destructive.

You know when you get parents who did eveything the wrong way around out of sheer ignorance; your chances at finding a new way to fuck up are really impossible.

Getting back to the issue of my son and the eye drops he refused to take. I took him to his eye appointment with our family optomertrist. I have been going to this guy for over 30 years and yes I wear glasses. My son was very well behaved and was cooperating well with the eye doctor until it was time for the eye drops, then the water works eventually started so no eye drops. Supposediy the eye doctor needs to put in these eye drops to dialate the eyes to get a more accurate picture to determine the extent of my son's far sightedness. My son does not wear eye glasses at the moment and dislikes the idea of ever having to wear them. Anyway my wife will now have to get these eye drops and put them in herself before she brings him back to the eye doctor.