It's tricky when it's not your own kid, isn't it?

I've been in this situation with my own kids. When he used to play on an old cartridge gaming system, I would first tell him "You can play for another two minutes." Then I would simply unplug the unit from the wall, killing the game right then and there. Then I would cheerfully herd him into the car with "So goodbye to Granny!" and he would have the tantrum in the car, but he learned that I meant what I said when it came to time to go.

Now you can't just pull the plug on most computers. (or, in the case of my laptop, the battery will kick in and the game won't stop.)

You don't want to discuss the situation in front of the child, because the child may perceive that as a parenting weakness. And you don't want to interfere with the mom's parenting style.

But the computer is yours, so you can make the situation about the computer, not about the child.

Next time, I would say: "David, your mom is here now, and you've had a good game. But now I need to check my Wondermail." And I would put my hands on the computer and quickly click out of the game, Then I would go ahead and do my work on the computer, and let mom deal with the child. Ideally, she would herd him out quickly (the goal you are both working towards.) If gradson has a tantrum, hopefully she would kick in with: "That's grandpa's computer. It was nice of him to let you play games on it, but he neds to use it now, and we need to go anyway."

I advise to not interfere with parenting styles and not interfere with mom and grandson's power struggle, but if the object of the struggle is your property, take control of that, and then see where the chips fall between mom and grandson.

 My nephews were like this. They were like this once they started playing them at around 6 and 8. The older would play at  higher levels, while the younger one would watch. My sister would have the same resistance in getting them away from these games . Just 1 more levels, they would plead.  Since I and my parents did not see them often we would tend to believe it was OK to give them more time than my sister.

However my sister was much more hard core in demanding they finish. The older would even lie, and say they were still on the same level, that they were when they had asked to be able to just finish the level they were on. 

The games  are very addictive. 

I and my parents learned to stay out of it, and let my sister handle it. 

My sister developed a system that allowed them to to finish in a certain amount of time, after she asked and if they did not stop playing she would take away their right to play video games, for a certain number of days.

Now my sister has setup a rule that they are only allowed to play for a certain number of hours a week. When they refused to stop she takes away the number of hours they are allowed to play.

So now my sister asks them to stop 10 minutes or so before they are needed to stop, and allows them to finish their level. Both of them now stop playing when they finish the level, and they are on time for dinner, car trips, etc.

It took a while , for my sister to learn this and for me and my parents to stay out of it.

Thanks for the suggestion about taking over the computer for my own work.  I think this would work.  He might consider me selfish; or he might learn to respect my property.  And he would probably leave in a hump with "I don't like Grammy."  But it would solve the problem. 

And I suppose that if he wouldn't leave because he was watching TV, I could check the weather channel.   What do I do if he is building with lego?    It's not the activity that is the problem - its him ignoring his mother and big sister's request (command) that he go out and get in the car - its time to go.

I have no problem when he is alone with me.  In fact he is generally a delight to take care of.    He might complain if he has to leave something that he enjoys doing, but he obeys me.  It's with his mother that he acts up. 

Also, I have no patience with idle threats.  If you don't mean it, don't say it.  Once you've said it, carry it through.   If Mom says that she is leaving without him and he still stalls and she still waits, she is losing credibility.  What would have happened if she and big sister had gotten in the car and gone home?   I think that he would have cried a bit, then come out and sat at the supper table with us and pushed his food around as usual.  After supper, and the dishes done, we would have driven him home.  And the next time she told him to get in the car or be left behind he would get in the car - or he would stay for a sleep-over before we took him home.  (Maybe I'm a mean old grandmother and would do him irrepairable damage).

Hi seeler,

I would have stuck to the original ten minute time limit.

When the 10 minutes was up the computer would go off and my son would get into the car and go as stated at the beginning.

Grace and peace to you.

John

And if he didn't, RevJohn?

Or if you were the grandparent watching this scene?

We had to deal with a somewhat similar situation with my son but it was just between my mom and him.  She used to do us a big favor and take my son to choir while I had the car at work.  He was a bit of a homebody and didn't like to go places, although he is much better now.  I used to joke that if we told him to get his things on we're going to Disney, he would say that he didn't want to go.  Anyway, my mom would come over to pick him up and he would whine and complain.  This really upset her and she told him that if he was going to be like that, she wasn't going to drive him anymore.  I reenforced this on the choir days in the morning, asking him how he was going to behave when grandma picked him up and it worked.

I don't know how similar the situations are though because my mom and I were almost exactly the same when it came to parenting.  When we were together and my son was doing something wrong we would often say the same (or almost the same) thing at the same time.

Hi seeler,

The computer goes off with the push of a button.  Since that is what appears to be distracting him from packing up and leaving.  

If there is more disobedience there will be more consequences.

There is always a choice offered.  You can do this or you can do this.  There are consequences to each choice, some are positive and others are not.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Hi seeler,

Parents are the parents.

If I cannot support my children as they raise my grandchildren I can, at the very least not get in their way.  If I wanted to help I would ask what I could do to help and follow their lead.

If I had a serious disagreement with how my kids were handling their kids we might talk about it when the kids are off somewhere out of earshot.

Grace and peace to you.

John

seeler, could your guy be acting out because of his mother's illness? Kid's minds never stop.

I was wondering if your daughter is letting her son get away with things that she normally wouldn't because she feels bad for him because she is sick or is this her normal way to deal with him?  Kids need at least as much structure as they had before the uncertianty entered their lives. 

When my son was four we had a traumatic experience.  My mother and I made the mistake of not keeping up with discipline and it was terrible.  Eventually he became violent with both of us.  I came to my senses and put order and discipline back in his life and he changed completely back to the sweet boy I had known before.  That experience helped me to help him through the illness and death of his grandma and great aunt.

Maybe you can put into effect 'grandma's house, grandma's rules' and explain to him that whatever he is doing when his mom comes to get him, that he has 10 (or however many) minutes to wrap it up.  Then remind him again when it is closer to time for mom to come.  My son always did better if he knew what was going to happen and exactly what was expected of him.

 Hmmm,

No doubt that video games and computer games can be hard to tear away from.  That is the plan, you always need to accomplish one more thing and then one more.......

Originally you mentioned that he didn't want to stay over.

When your daughter arrived and said  "lets go"  if he said no, I would have offered to have him stay over night.  But decide right away.

He is coping with her being ill and she is coping with being ill and dealing with her kids.

So at first I would have offered to mom that he can stay over.  If no to that, then I would have done as others suggested.  When 10 minutes were up, "stop and save the game now before the computer gets turned off and you lose the game."  He'll cry/be mad but will learn that 10 minutes mean 10 minutes.

One other thing though.  I am not sure how long he was playing the game before it was time to go.  Next time i would set a time limit for the game, say 30 minutes and put it on a timer.  Because otherwise you can be there for hours.  Then if mom arrived you would be able to say  "sonny has 12 more minutes of game time left..."

Thank you all for your comments and advice.  You are right.  He is upset about his mother's illness and its causing him to regress and to 'act up'.  And his mom (Seelergirl) feels helpless and guilty that she can't give him the attention he needs, and he often is sent off on play-dates and sleep-overs, or to visit Grammy (or other Gramma) for a day or two.  Also she doesn't have the stength to physically remove him from the chair, or out the door and into the car.   Add that to her tendence to be far more lenient than I would be, and her trying to reason with a tired, hungry, cranky child - and I find that if she doesn't want my help I'd better remove myself from the situation. 

I can see now that I should have handled this differently from my end.  I should have told him that he could only use my computer until Mommy was coming.  I could have asked her to phone and give warning that she was on her way.  Then I could have cut that time in half and told him that he only had so many minutes to finish up what he was doing - and used the other half to have him ready to meet her at the door - shoes on,  etc. 

If she had shown up before I expected I could have told him that I needed the computer in a few minutes and then came into the den and took over. 

I could have offered to have him stay for supper, or overnight, before it became such an issue.    However, I don't think she would have agreed to this as she wants him home whenever she feels up to caring for him. 

And when she refused my help I could go and sort laundry.  

But it is hard to see my daughter struggling, and to see anyone giving her a hard time - even if its her children. 

I agree with most of what people have written above.   Another couple of perspectives to add ...

Seeler, you write that she feels guilty not spending as much time with her son - but actually the stalling he is doing is gaining lots of one-to-one attention & time from his mother - to us it seems negative, but it is attention nevertheless.

Perhaps there's also a sibling rivalry aspect to this - sister wants to/needs to get going & attempts to control the situation;  brother decides to stall & goof around - who will win? 

Seeler, I think you made a great choice to get yourself out the the way when the situation was unfolding - well done.  And good question - because undoubtedly the situation will arise again.

I went to a parent course way long years ago - the presenter made the point that we often do way too much talking about stuff - assuming that if we just explain the kids will cooperate - doesn't work - they're kids & they want what THEY want, not what we adults explain logically to them must be.   As the adults we have to speak less sometimes and act on what we say - as other have said - offering closed choices and consequences.

Putting control into the child's hands (safely) is a useful tack.

In the case being discussed - before mom arrives tell the child -

"Mom will be here to pick you up at 4pm.  Do you want me to tell you a few minutes before that so you can stop playing in time to save your game - or would you rather wait till mom arrives and have me turn off the computer?"

You send a clear message that he WILL get off the computer by 4 pm but he gets to choose how it is done.

Works for other things too -

"I was thinking of taking you kids to the swimming pool after dinner.  Your dirty clothes must be cleaned out of your bedrooms and put in the laundry room before we leave."  (ALL the children must clear up their dirty clothes or NO-ONE swims)

"do you want to ride in the shopping cart, hold the side or let me choose?"  (We ARE going shopping!)

Do you want to put your clothes away now or right before you eat?  (The clothes WILL be put away before I feed you again!)

I agree with the comment about kids' behavior being connected to the getting of attention.  Ever noticed how leaving the room stops a pre school temper tantrum?  No audience means no fun!  Giving no attention to what the child eats at meals results in the child eating what is there - or going without until you choose to serve the next meal.  If the child wants a bedtime story s/he will do the things that come first (pj's, clean teeth or whatever).  Not done on time?  "I'm sorry you missed your story for tonight - let's try again tomorrow."

Seeler, I hope you don't beat yourself up over this.  You and your daughter are parenting and you are grandparenting in a whole different realm now.  You had an interaction that didn't go as well as you'd have liked.  You dealt with it as best you could at the time and you asked for input on how you might deal with it better if it happens again.  I think that is excellent parenting and grandparenting.

Thank you somegirl.

 I agree, dont' beat your self up and don't worry, I am sure it is forgotten now.

And Besh, you missed that they were leaving.  There was o "better" thing to do, no reward for getting off, no real positive for the child.  He wanted to play and he had to stop.  

If only we all made the right decisions all the time, how much more serene would be be, but then what would we talk about  :)

I still go with pulling the plug.

Jae - that might work for you.  I would never pull the plug on my computer, or suddenly shut it down.  I am not very computer literate.  I would be too frightened that something I had been working on - perhaps hours of work on my service for Sunday - as well as something Mr. Seeler had would be lost - or that it would take him hours to get the computer up and running again and find everything. 

When Seelerboy was home I left the computer in a hurry without closing my work.  He opened another window and typed up some sports stats, nothing that he carred to save.  When I got back to the computer I somehow pushed a wrong button and when I called up my week's work, I got a page of sports stats.  My work was lost in cyber-space.  Even Seelerboy couldn't find it.   So, no.  Pulling the plug was not an option for me.   Before I could shut down the computer I would have to sit down and make sure anything we had worked on that day had been carefully closed.  But someone was sitting in the chair and I didn't want to go over his mother's head and pull him out of the seat.   (Also because of my poor vision I have to sit directly in front of the computer to do anything on it.)

Pulling the plug was not an option for me.

I think that you're on the right track, seeler, for if you meet this situation again.  Perhaps you want to talk to your daughter in advance to let her know what YOUR tactics will be and that you plan to follow HER parenting lead.  At least that way you'll both know where the other stands on the issue.

seeler,

Judo throw onto the koolaid-poisoned nerf spikes, followed by a double-tap to the centre of mass with a nerf gun, then the head shot, just to be sure

Whenever I am with my Nephews, I am constantly amazed at the differing 'parenting styles' they have.  Their dad parents different from their mom parents different from their grandpa parents different than I parents different than their Oma.

(you should see how the youngest reacts when it is time to stop playing Lego: Batman.  HOOSHT!)

If my brother or I had ever pulled a stunt like that we would have been bodily hauled away from the computer, lost every privilage we ever had for a week or more and likely been banned from the device in question for weeks or months.  My parents were not of the 'treat a kid like a reasoning adult' view.  We were kids.  We obeyed, immediately, or were punished.  Period.

If it were me I'd have turned the computer off and dragged the kid home, kicking and screaming if that's what it took. I don't believe in trying to reason with kids either. 

Besh - how is this for a positive outcome. 

Get off the computer right now and you get to go home with Mommy.  (Implying:  Otherwise you'll be stuck with Grammy for the next few hours. )    That's what Mommy was suggesting but she didn't follow through.   

Or, you need to up the negative ante.  We have a sliding scale of punishments. We give a warning before, and an opportunity to comply.  First is no dessert, then no stories at bedtime, then no dessert tomorrow.  It's never gone beyond that.  Truthfully, it rarely gets beyond the first level, as bedtime stories is a show stopper.

But you DO have to enforce it.

I did get your point besh but I disagree.

Children dont' always need to have a positive to lok forward to.  Lots of times the choices are not great but that is reality.

The boy is young, he is stressed about his mom, most likely the parenting rules have dramatically changed over the past few months with all the different people helping out with caregiving.  SO he pushes the limits when he thinks he can.

Pretty natural stuff.  What might have passed as rules before are not quite the same now.

However, your premise that a child needs a good option to choose from isn't realistic and not how most parents operate.

There are choices like

5 minutes of tv and then bed.

or no minutes of tv and then bed.

Which do you choose.  That is reality.

but it isn't reality for a child which has had his world turned upside down.  Mommy is sick,  others have different rules and it is hard to know what rules are in play today.

Perhaps on other visits, mommy felt ill when she arrived to pick him up so sat and had iced tea for 30 minutes.  SO he has that experience to think it might happen again.

Seeler -- so much great advice above, but I also recognize that no one is acting normally when faced with what  your family is dealing with.  So, your problem solving skills may not be optimal.   Young grandson may be sick of being "good" . Mom is tired.

Do what you can, and forgive yourself and others when it isn't perfect.

"NO" to what Beshpin?

You think a reward will always work?  Kids aren't dogs....they dont' react always to the bell with the award.

Clear, logical consequences like...if you don't log off graciously by xyz time, the machine will shutdown on you.. .....work.

Umm.  Besh.  Please share with us the ages of your children and provide some concrete examples of how you use your strategies with your children.

Seeler.

I can relate somewhat. 

First, when Matthew was really sick I certainly took the easy way out the odd time with our older son because I just didn't have the energy to effectively discipline in the moment.  We paid later that is for sure.  However, there were no catastrophic consequences and my kids, for the most part, are extremely respectful of rules and boundaries, even the rules they hate, such as the one hour of video games/day rule.

Secondly, I can relate to the differing parenting as well.  My neice and nephew are here for the week and I find them very high maintenance, particularly now that my sister has separated (badly). My nephew is particularly challenging when my sister is around and she struggles to establish limits.  My answer has simply been that we have house rules.  For example, in our house video gaming is limited to one hour.  Period.  Your house may be different, but these are ours.  So I think the suggestion around computer timelimes...it does off when mom arrives, might work. 

One other thought is that we used the 1-2-3 Magic approach with clear consequences at 3 (and clear follow-through as well). It has worked extremely well for us.  These days all I have to do is hold one finger up in the air (that's 1) and my kids get the point immediately and almost always comply by "2".  I haven't made it to three in ages.  They may complain, but they comply.

So Besh.  In the 1,2,3, there are actually no positive consequences other than avoiding a negative repurcussion.  But yet it works well for us.  My kids respect boundaries and follow-through on expectations.

lol, and, similarly, the same type of things apply in the workplace.  If you are ontime for x days -- you surely don't get an award. You're late for x days, you are going to lose your job. simple...straight forward.

(sorry, seeler, sidetracked from the original question...but, i still say..when things aren't normal in the family, rules and behaviour shift.....) and in a way, that is the same skills they will need to understand in the workplace and in their family/social situation as adults.  There are standard rules and times when extenuating circumstances.apply

Thanks Pinga, DaisyJane, others, for your support and insight into the problem.  Grandson certainly hasn't been hisself this summer.  I'm hopeing that the routines of school will help him.  Also Chemo will be over in another month of so, so Mommy shouldn't be so sick. 

He's been better on his visits since that day.  I have tried setting the time limit when I'm home.  Timer set (I use the microwave timer that has a fairly loud buzz); five minute, then two minute, warning; then tell him to turn off the computer.  And I do this before Mommy is expected. 

If there is still time, I plan for something fun - like riding his bike to the corner and back, or a snack that he likes, after he gets off the computer, and we gather his stuff at the door shortly before Mommy is expected.

I recently distracted him while Mommy was trying to make a quick getaway for a medical appointment but showing him a root-beer float.  He was so excited seeing the ice cream (which he loves), drop into the root beer (which he loves), and fluzzy up so that he could eat it with a spoon or slurp it through a thick straw, that he barely had time for a quick kiss and a wave out the window as she drove out the driveway.

For my oldest son we set the timer on the computer.  The timer makes the computer turn it's self off while saving programes and logging off the computer in a safe way.

For other activities (lego, reading, hand held video games ect.) we use a oven timer. Just before bed we let him do theses quiet acctivities and when the timer goes off we go into his room and also give him the verbal alarm "time to shut down and go to bed buddy".

Somtimes he asks for more time and in that  case we tell him that would cut into cuddle time.  Since he would rather spend one on one time cuddling in his bed it works. He is usally alseep within 5 mins of us leaving his room

Seeler....glad to hear that you have found something that works. 

Parenting and setting clear boundaries during a crisis can be hard.  We have struggled with this somewhat when Matthew was sick. 

You also have me craving a root beer float.  Maybe we'll do that tonight with my neice and nephew.

Definitely have walked out of stores carrying a child who was rather unhappy, and hitting me....strapped them into a carseat and gone home.

Also, once, pulled over to the side of the road, and let a preteen walk home for a few miles.  It was a simple path for him to follow -- so low risk, but he was not happy.   the behaviour was unacceptable -- choosing to not wear a seatbelt.  From then on, he wore the seatbelt. 

Seeler,

I am in agreement with Crazy Heart ( take note of this) - definitely a 3 way power /grief struggle with mom who has lost virility in the parenting sphere lately.  I would tell your dear bambino that Grandma's heart will be there when he came back and that you and he could do something more special next time than just jack around on the computer.  Meanwhile, "your mom,- has plans.  "

Pinga has mentioned the magic word - consequences.  They came in two varieties for our kids when young (and to us all as adults too.)

Natural consequences -

riding your bike carelessly leads to falling off

leaving shoelaces untied leads to tripping

teasing a dog leads to growls and maybe worse.

Logical consequences -

not using your seatbelt, or fighting in the car causes the driver to pull over and stop or put you outside to walk (depends on distance to go)

refusing to keep the timelimit for an activity leads to the activity being banned for a day or week

not getting your homework done right after school means no going out in the evening

We found that we reminded the kids of the expected behavior - then acted.

I remember once when my son was 2.  He acted up in the grocery store, can't even remember what about.

I left a full cart, picked him up and left.  Not angry, just left.  TOld him that he was not able to shop with me if he acted that way.  He would have to stay home.

Next day made a big point of calling a babysitter so I could grocery shop ( something he usually loved to do, all the visiting and chatting in the store was right up his alley)

He was very sad.

A few days later i mentioned I was going grocery shopping, did he want to come.  As well behaved as usual.

I also remind myself when I see children acting up if they are out.  That I don't know anything about what ahs happened.  I don't know the family. I don't know the child.  I don't know if behaviour issues are a problem for the child.  I don't know if in fact he is being good for him.

I really try to  not judge why children act up.  I try to give a sympathetic smile at the mom or dad and remember that kids can try our patience.  I often find that a " we all had those days, " with a smile can help the mom/dad take a deep breath and move on.  And sometimes a hello to the child can divert their attention adn break the tantrum.

Besh - I didn't plan to respond any further to you here because I don't believe that you have carefully read my previous posts.  If you did you might understand:

1.  I am not the parent here.  She is in control.  My question was about how I could support her in getting grandson out to the car.  Your advice reads as though I'm the one making the decisions.

2.  Time is of essence.  Mom and Big Sister are anxious to get home.  There really isn't time for me to offer the alternative of reading him a story.  Besides he has already had story time today, and with this child reading a story could never compete with having more time on the computer.   Your suggested positive outcome just wouldn't apply in this situation. 

3.  The thing he wants most - and has been waiting for all day - is to go home with Mommy and not stay for supper or a sleep-over at Grammy's house.  Yet, when I asked you if this would be a positive outcome you didn't respond. 

Mommy has threatened to leave him at Grammy's.  I have offered to drive him home later.  Before receiving support and alternate suggestions from others, it seemed to me that once we had reached this point with Mom threatening and me making it possible for her to carry out her threat it would have been a possible solution but Mom didn't follow through on her threat.  There is nothing I can do about that at the moment but I might talk to her about empty threats at another time.  My other quesiton was:  if we had followed through, what effect would this have on grandson?  Would it be tramatic or cause him more anxiety at a time in his life when a lot of things are upsetting him?

Instead of asking us how we would deal with it.  In this situation it would be best if you asked your daughter how she would like you to deal with it in private.    This way she will know that you are respecting her wishes and respect her opinion.  Suggest to her what you wanted to do/say, and why.  Would she have minded if you did what you instinctively wanted to do? 

Actually, Seeler may have done so.

Her post is as likely one to help us walk through a scenario....or looking for other ideas.  Remember, Seeler's family is under undue stress at this time.

Too true Lastpointe, and I would add, until we have our 2nd.....because then we learn that each child is a unique character and that what works with one may have no impact on the other.

I thought with my first child that I was an awesome parent and it was my & my husbands parenting.  My 2nd taught me that I was just a lucky parent.  Had the birth order been switched there may not have been a 2nd child!

seeler, sure sounds like you have figured out some options...i love the root beer float idea..and wow, does that bring back memories. good for you and for him. 

true.  Subsequent children teach you alot about being organized adn going with the flow.

Mine are similar but in many ways very different.  How they responded to rules really varied.  Second was very eager to please.  The idea that you might disapproved was usually enough for her to behave.  First?  his motto was   lets see how far we can go with this.......

Even if you aren't the parent, you are functioning in that role.  Children will try to get away with whatever then can,  At least, I did.  Our oldest one was notorious for 'in a minute turning into a half hour'. I'd tell him to save his game because it was being shut down.  When he didn't, the game got shut down.  After a couple of times, he caught on.  Grandchildren are precious, and they know it.  Let him know that now means now even with grandma.  He'll survive and he'll learn.