see this definition of the word church: The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. By the time of Jerome''s translation of the New Testament from Greek to Latin, it was customary to use a derivative of kuriakon to translate ekklesia. Therefore, the word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting. It was also used as a synonym for the word synagogue, which also means to "come together," i.e. a gathering. "Body of Christ" Since believers have been united with Christ through spiritual baptism, they are sometimes corporately referred to as the body of Christ. (Rom. l2:4-5; 1 Cor. l2:11,13,l8,27; Col. l:l8; Eph. 5:30) The idea seems to be that the group of Christians in the world constitute the physical representation of Christ on earth. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17)
Ipso facto, a group purporting to be a church cannot deny Jesus Christ.

Who says that the Church is denying Jesus? Maybe his divinity - certainly! No more divine than you or I.

It might also be helpful to remember - that while we can disagree over interpretation of scripture and it''s meaning - it was constructed by Human Beings with an Agenda. Jesus is portrayed VERY DIFFERENTLY in all Gospels. Paul never met the Human Jesus. The Gosepls were also composed decades following Jesus death. No to mention that there are over 5400 Different Greek versions of the New Testament - no translation is the same ... what does that tell us?!!

Personally, I think if Jesus were here and did return he''d be appauled by what''s happened both scripturally, morally, institutionally, politically all in his name - especially the building up of a "Church" IN HIS NAME. How silly.

I think a little more research would show that in all the Gospels (and all the translations, versions etc.) Jesus is depicted as the Son of God. He also, dies and rises from the dead, and everything else found in the apostles creed. I think you''re right that when Jesus returns He won''t be too happy with the sins in the world. But He will very much be who He says He is in the Bible.

We should be careful of the many people in the world who want to cast doubt on who the Bible says Jesus is. Look around at all the suffering and wrong people cause in our world. It could very well be that people cast doubt because of their own agendas.

Yes there are many manuscripts. I usually point this out to show that there is a lot of corroborating evidence that the Bible is true. That''s what all this comes down to: what is true. The Bible makes claims. It really doesn''t make sense to me for people to call themselves followers of that book and not believe what it says. It makes no sense to me that people call themselves followers of Christ and not believe in what He has said.

People can call themselves whatever they want, but it is what they are that really matters.

Hey wait a minute - did a reply get deleted here? The one about if you deny Christ you ain't a church, and then went off about abortion and gay-ness?
Is this a forum for open discussion or what? I hope this wasn'tdeliberately removed - that would seem to undermine the stated purpose of this website. Of course I noticed the website was alll squirrelly in the past hour or so, so maybe it's a techno-glitch

Any how I would say if Jesus means nothing to you, then Christian you are not. Try to find your church in another flavour. It may be a church, but not a Christian one - by definition. I don't think Christians have a monoploy on the word "church"

Is the gist of this question really "if Jesus is not divine, then how is following him any considered religious?" That's a different question. Does Jesus connect you to the divine? Then I would call those who are connected through Christ, a church. Can we connected to the divine through Jesus even if we think of him as not divine? Yes perhaps for many of us that is entirely possible.
Or is following him the same to you as perhaps following a fitness regimen, or supporting a political party? Then perhaps for you, it is not a church but a Christ-following social club.

What church are we talking about, here... and what do you mean by "denying Jesus"?

It's a good question about what it might mean to deny Jesus. Is it really only about whether you think that Jesus saves? That Jesus is God?

Maybe it is more about living a life that recognizes how Jesus lived - with compassion to those who were outcast, questioning the powers and authorities of the day, valuing women and children in a society that just saw them as commodities, reaching out to those in painand those who yearned for forgiveness and joy.

When reading the gospels, they seem to be more about lving with joy and compassion than "believing" a certain set of rigid constructs.

Perhaps the question is incomplete and should read....if a church denies Jesus, can it truly be called a CHRISTIAN church. If we refuse to admit to the existence of Jesus then logically the term "Christian" would not apply. If deny means to acknowledge Jesus' existence but to challenge if he was Divine, raises a very different question.

To me, Jesus' legacy is based not on his words, or whether or not he was divine but on the values he espoused: love justice, courage, humanity, compassion, truth,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,these are what should define us and guide us.

To paraphrase Bishop Spong "the task of the church is to provide support for people to touch the infinite centre of all things and to grow into all that they are destined to be". Seems like an admirable goal to me.

THis is a great topic for discussion. But why is it in the parenting category??

ANyway, to be a Christian church implies some form of statement about Jesus. BUt there are also many Christian statements about Jesus out there--and some of them contradict each other. And they are pretty much all based at least partly on the Gospels.

What does it mean to deny Jesus? Does it mean to have a different picture than you do? I have never heard any church officially deny Jesus.

You really need to clarify your position before we can have any kind of meaningful discussion.

We might ask: "Can a church which preaches against baptism really be called a church? We might ask hundreds of similar questions. No one denies Jesus. he was born (its an historical fact)... Steven Harper was born, too. So what? Was he born of a virgin? Now that is an altogether different question. Was he a great teacher, preacher, helper, one who was filled with compassion??? You must be mor specific about what the question really means.............

Harry.

I know men, and I tell you, Jesus Christ was no mere man"¦Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires. But on what did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ alone founded his empire upon love; and, at this hour, millions of men would die for him. NAPOLEAN, AFTER HIS DEFEAT AT WATERLOO

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic "“ on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg "“ or else he would be the devil of hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse"¦Let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. C.S. LEWIS, PROFESSOR AND ATHOR

"Maybe it is more about living a life that recognizes how Jesus lived - with compassion to those who were outcast, questioning the powers and authorities of the day, valuing women and children in a society that just saw them as commodities, reaching out to those in painand those who yearned for forgiveness and joy.

When reading the gospels, they seem to be more about lving with joy and compassion than "believing" a certain set of rigid constructs."

I absolutely agree with your view here. Too many people now seem to base their beliefs on rules and what-not-to-do that they force upon others. But what happened to Jesus' message of love and acceptance? What happened to, "Ye who is without sin, cast the first stone."?

"But what happened to Jesus' message of love and acceptance? What happened to, "Ye who is without sin, cast the first stone."?"

Words like "deny Jesus" always carry a specific understanding. Usually a very limited one. Its the kind of understanding that drives people of faith away from the church in droves.

Jesus was about love and acceptance. Our growing body of knowledge about the construction of the New Testament can help shed light on why those limited understandings can be set aside.

John has Jesus repeatedly say that his commandment is "to love one another as I have loved you." It what differentiates a "servant" from a "friend".

I'd much rather be a friend of Jesus than a servant. But that's just me.

I've always wondered how anyone could take those statements any other way.

Although not entirely applicable this is the first discussion i've read now that i've joined Wonder Cafe and it gives me hope for the future of this site.

I started looking into the United Church in my community several weeks ago, after having a bit of an self-made opening of my eyes while thinking about my spirituality (which I have been trying to figure out for many years). This caused me to write an essay - (http://twistosticity.vox.com/library/post/religion-and-i.html) and look into my parent's back grounds.

Neither my mother or father are practicing Christians but my father's parents are members of the UCC and I looked into it, and subsquently liked what I managed to find out about their structure, a lot of it fitting into my still forming idea of what Christianity means to me, and is.

Then I read an article in the Globe and Mail today about their new advertising campaign, I hadn't realized those cool adds I had been seeing around were a result of the UCC, it's good work and gives me hope that i'm not shouting to a deaf crowd in my apprehensions towards organized religion and the way they self-view.

Jesus came that the whole world may be saved through him. ( John 3:17) So any Christian "church", that denies Jesus, must be a "church" of confusion.

Depends on what you mean by church. If you mean Christian Church then no. There are many pseudo churches and cults out there that call themselves churches but they are not Christian churches.

Wait, are we assuming that just because something is in the Bible it is true?

I'm officially out of this conversation, especially since the bible is against barbecued ribs in the old testament.

I have been reading through the posts and this is a very interesting topic. However, I think it is a hard one because it all depends on your interpretation of scripture. Do you take the Bible literally or not? Or, some where in between?

I do not quote scripture in regard to Jesus' purpose, because I am not sure that Jesus actually said that. We have to remember that the scriptures have been translated and rewritten many many times. I mean wasn't Matthew written 30-60 years after Christ died?

And again, denying Jesus or his divinity? Very important to clarify.

Okay Mad Monk and Alwm,
The second we start second guessing whether the bible is the irrefutable word of God, we are in big trouble. God didn't mean this! God didn't mean that! Who are we anyways? We are like a speck of dust on a grain of sand in this universe.
Careful study of God's word will reveal His word for us today. Sure there has been translations, some carefully done and some not so carefully done. The truth of the message is very much intact. In fact, if you consider that the Bible was being destroyed during the dark ages, you will realize that God has preserved his word for today.
When our post modern, anything goes, there is no absolute right, way of thinking conflicts with Gods word, then of course the Bible is incorrect and the Jesus was not divine, Jesus did not exist, Jesus had children with Mary theories, start to come out.

I wonder if Jehovah realizes all of the spelling mistakes, geographical errors, timeline goofs, and contradictions made when he was writing it?

Perhaps they were put there on purpose just to make sure that we're reading it right, but I suspect that the self-appointed author who wrote in a metaphorical way didn't expect those of us in 2006 to be dumb enough to take him or her literally.

But, go ahead. If that makes you feel better.

Gracious: I read your blog post and it was good. The Dalai Lama would tell you to not become a buddhist but to go more deeply into your tradition.

Better to dig one well 10 feet deep then 10 wells one foot deep.

I'm looking at all the posts here, and there is so much that seems irrelevant. I think that it's rather simple

The definition of A church (stressing A) is not "a body of people built up by Jesus". That would be the church that was in itself built up by Jesus. So no, if a church denies Jesus, it is still a church. Just not a church with that particular set of beliefs. I think you need to rephrase your question, if this doesn't answer what you had in mind (or at the very least, help answer it, because no one person has the answer).

Good discussion ...
What is important for me is how Jesus lived, and what he taught, rather than who he was. I don't need to believe in the divinity of Jesus to be a Christian for the same reason that a Buddhist doesn't need to believe in the divinity of Buddha to be a Buddhist. Please note that I'm not saying that I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus; it's simply not important to me.

If they do not recognize Jesus as the Son of God, they are not a church per se. As Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man can come to the Father, except through me".

The UCC twists God , by claiming that we are called to forgive others like Jesus. But the difference is. The only ones forgiven are those who repent, meaning turn from sin, to God.

Like giving you a dollar. You cannot receive unless you take it. Same as forgiveness. Christ offers but you have to take it, and the way you take it is to repent.

Notice in scripture, any time anyone came to Christ there was always a call to repentance first.

Faith in Christ. SO if we examine what that is, we see that it is faith that His way is right, and following it.

If we don't we don't have faith, and if we don't have faith we are not Christian. And if a place is full of non Christians, then it isn't a church. Its a social club

The question is:

If a church denies Jesus, can it truly be called a church?

No it cannot.

The Greek word for church is ekklesia and it litterally means "assembly".

And in his original instructions to the King James Version translating committee, King James told them NOT to change the word "church" to something else.

I wonder if he also told them not to translate the word, Baptism.

I'd love to see an English Bible actually translate those two wods.

Yes that Greek word Bapto actually means to immerse.

I laughed about ten years ago when the new Catholic Catechism came out. They spent about a half a page trying to claim it didn't mean immerse.

Then they defined it their way: "To plunge into water".

What's the difference?

If a church denies the Diety of Jesus, or denies that Jesus pre-existed prior to when He was born to Mary, that group is no longer a church.

Or if they deny He rose from the dead.

What breaks God's heart is that there are denominations where this even needs to be mentioned.

The United Methodist Bishop in Chicago was writing a book, the 4th chapter of which he published on his web site.

That Bishop's name was C. Joseph Sprague.

I can't recall the exact title of the book or that chapter, but the jist of the 4th chapter was an attempt to prove that Jesus was just a man and that He was not truely God.

I am grateful to report that he finally retired.

It is interesting to note that everything everyone writes on this message board is being recorded in heaven and each of us will givee an account for what we have done and said and written.

Which is why with rare exception I tell people to get out of any organization which calls itself a church where they baptize babies or deny Jesus or deny anything the Bible teaches about Jesus.

I'll be praying for this Wonder Cafe that people learn here Who Jesus really is and that He is Lord.

Pastor Art

PS: Is anyone else going blind from the tiny tiny font size used here?

am i the only person wondering what the f*&^ this has to do with parenting???

Gordo If you say that you are without sin, You deny the Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus. If you deny that Christ is not head of the church, the church is in denial. And the words of Christ were "He denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father in Heaven."

gabriel What is to clarify. The Words she writes dont they speak for themselves?

Goldenrule When Christ said this when some brought a adulterous women before Him and accused her, Whereas Christ knew what was in the men's heart, the reason He said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone." Christ also said to everyone. "If I had not come and spoken the Word, they would have no sin, But now they have no cloak for their sins." Meaning if you have heard The Words of Christ, you should know in your heart you are a sinner, and repent and receive forgiveness.

sighsnootles It seems to bother you what she wrote. Read those words again and take them to heart.

Um, when did I say I was without sin?

And I said quite clearly that to be a Christian church means affirming belief in the Risen Christ.

Sorry but I don't see your point sylviac.

ANd I too wonder if there was a way this thread could be moved to Religion and Faith where it belongs. Nothing in it thus far has been about parenting.

seriously... sylviac, my problem isn't with the point that has been stated... its with the fact that this point has NOTHING to do with parenting.

i agree, move this to the religion forum.

I used to go to a nightclub called the Church.....best church I ever went to.

Sylviac said: Meaning if you have heard The Words of Christ, you should know in your heart you are a sinner, and repent and receive forgiveness.

Or (not that it has anything to do with the topic ot even parenting) meaning if you heard the words of Christ that you should know you're a sinner and know better than to throw stones.

athiesto, you totally crack me up sometimes!!!
ROTFLMAO!!!

Gordo I believe the pharisees refused to believe Jesus our Lord was sent by God the Father and refused to recognize Him as the Messiah. So I would think anyone who denies the Jesus Christ is Lord does in fact deny Him. As Our Lord said "He who denies me, him will I also deny before my Father in Heaven."

sylviac,
I still don't see your point. You seem to be responding to something I am not aware I said. Please tell me when I denied Christ?

Q: If a church denies Jesus, can it truly be called a church?

Nowadays, we can call anything a church -- even if it is outside the one church that Christ established. It is sad but that is how we have reduced the word 'church'. The word has lost its sanctity and integrity.

The church is God's family. God has only one family. How do we feel if we learn that our father has 2 families or 3 or a thousand? It says something about integrity doesn't it?

If we deny the one who central in the family (Jesus), how could we even think there is a family? If we deny the family that Jesus established, can we even call the one we form a family, a church?

gordo sorry I meant Goldenrule.

Yes... there was that Australian band in the 80s too...

Goldenrule Jesus our Lord said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes unto the Father except through me." no where does it say to follow his teachings will bring you unto the Father.

Did he actually say that? Hard to say....

PastorArt, you said, "What breaks God's heart is that there are denominations where this even needs to be mentioned."

Whenever I hear someone talk about what breaks God's heart, it strikes me as rather arrogant and judgemental. How do you know what breaks God's heart?

Our church and many of the people within its assembly look at scripture differently than do you -- how does this make you right and us wrong? Some of us have been Christians for many years and have walked a journey faithful to our leading, in spite of or perhaps because of the complexities with which we are presented in the UCC.

I reject this condescending view of those of us who spend time wondering about the juxtaposition of Hebrew and Christian scripture with what it means to be living in the world today. You are free to interpret the scriptures in your life and in your way. Please give me and others in the UCC the same respect.

PastorArt wrote:

"It is interesting to note that everything everyone writes on this message board is being recorded in heaven and each of us will givee an account for what we have done and said and written."

Well Geez Art! That could take an eternity! Anyway Art my plan is that I'm going to filibuster by larding my accounting to God with biblical references taken out of context much in the style of your literalist friends. The committee (or Saint Peter or Harold the angel) or whoever they have to meet me there will be so bored and or confused that they'll just wave me through in order to have it over with. Kinda like at the Ambassador Bridge on long weekends.

By the way, I have always pictured that there is a waiting room where you wait before making your accounting to these special angels who all wear green eyeshades and carry Ticonderoga pencils behind their ears. What colour are the walls? I'm planning on wearing a grey suit because that is the colour of trust and I don't want it to clash with the colour scheme. They *do* let you wear clothes don't they or does the accounting thing entail stripping off? I hope not otherwise I'm going to have to start getting back into shape before I die. Do they have seperate change rooms or is it co-ed? Does the bible say whether you have to take a number? Do they have those little padded partitions like in government offices? Or is it a more like a drivethrough at Tim Hortons? I hope they serve a good double double? I once heard a great joke about a guy who arrived in hell right at coffee break but I can't tell it in mixed company ... or in any company for that matter.

Anyway PastorArt, I'm pretty confident (actually I'm cocksure) but if you could get back to me on these few details I would appreciate it. I'm sure that if anybody knows the answers to my questions, you do.

Nobody has a copyright on the word, "Church". Nobody has a copyright on the word, "Christian".

What you see depends on what you're looking for.

A church without Jesus (divine, redemptive, Son of God) is like...

... a virus on my Mac.
... Playboy on my cable package.
... a winning lottery ticket.
... an encouraging word when I need it most.
... polio, thanks to wonderful research.

I just don't get it.

Why bother?

I think any group of people who share a set of beliefs and want to practice them can be called a church. I also think any church who does not think that people are right in practicing what they beleive (christ beleivers or not) is NOT a church. I mean as long as they aren't harming people. Everyone should be free to beleive and practice what they want and what fills their spiritual needs.