Daisy - I'm sorry to hear that your son is still struggling (you've shared a bit about this before).  You have enough to worry about with Specialson and I hope he's gotten through this most recent illness. 

Any parent with more than one child soon realizes that each of our child will have his own individual needs, his own problems and concerns.  I wonder if some of oldestson's problems stem from the stress and tension your whole family experiences from time to time. 

Last fall our grandson seemed to be having problems.  His attention span was almost non existant, he often seemed to be in a world of his own, twiddling his thumbs while the teacher was giving instructions and then not knowing what to do.  And his reading level that had been good at the end of kindgergarden dropped to almost non existant.   His teacher sent home a note advising that some students in the eduction program at university would be working one-on-one with some children and she recommended it for Grandson.   That was the end of September.  Grandson is now reading at a level above requirements for grade one.   He brought a book from home to read before church - and I noticed him in a corner of the gym reading quietly to himself during the after church fellowship time.  The book was "A diary of a Wimpy Kid".    I was quite impressed for a kid who couldn't read just a few months ago. 

He still has problems paying attention, and is often in a world of his own.  I think some of this might be due to the stress of his mother's illness despite her efforts to keep things as normal as possible for him.   He is an introvert who enjoys his own company or that of a few close friends.  Other kids seem to like him though. 

I think sometimes with minor problems it is best just to wait and see.  Sometimes it might be best not to put a label on a kid.  On the other hand, if intervention can help perhaps it is best to identify the problem do what you can as soon as possible.

Thanks for your post seeler.

I agree that a label can be problematic and we certainly delayed testing for a few years because of that concern.  But, in a few years we have gone from being told we have a gifted child to having a child that is struggling to pass grade nine math.  What really triggered the testing is that our son seemed really bothered about his difficulties and didn't know how to address them. He is actually quite diligent about homework and studies for tests.  It wasn't just that he needed to put in  more effort, it seemed deeper than that.

I also agree with you that anxiety could be an issue and that is something we have worried about.  We have tried to shelter our kids from the most serious problems associated with specialson but these kids live in the same house.  They see it whether they like to or not. We have talked to his school about our concerns (our son attends a private school with a small teacher to student ratio so they are quite connected to the kids) and they have been amazingly supportive and very interested in working with our son's needs rather than just labelling him. I actually think our son was relieved when we proposed testing.  There is a sense that he is very frustrated but also has no idea how to make it better.  He was starting to dislike school and to believe he wasn't capable of success which worried us a great deal.

He's an amazing kid with lots of strengths.  As teenagers go, I  have lucked out.  He is quite reasonable and a really "good kid".  He doesn't get into trouble, hangs out with nice kids, and respects parental (and other) boundaries.  I am very hopeful that this testing will help us better understand how he learns and how we can better support him.

I agree Specialmom.  In your son's case it is time for intervention.  Especially when he is in agreement with it.  I do hope that it is something that he can learn to deal with so that he can realize his full potential. 

Carolla suggested a spot called

"Greenoaks"

- a service you pay for (sometimes insurance covers some or all) but they assess your child face to face for awhile and then make recommendations that your school can work with.  She could tell you more, but it is a well-thought-of group, that goes beyond normal school related obstacles.

that might help...

Hi,

I see you mentioned that your son was struggling in particular with Math aqnd that previously he was deemed "gifted"

I had a similar experience with my eldest, a very bright kid who then by the time he was doing grade 8/9 math had trouble.

Ultimately what we learned was that he was very intuitive with math.  That all along through school he had just "known" the answer.  Made math easy but it also meant that he had not "learned" how to do it.

So what was obvious and easy for him in younger grades became difficult as it got more complicated.  ie

if you just know that   x + 3 = 7 so x = 4 without thinking about it  you haven't learned the whole  subtract form one side and add to the other.........

So when a folmula becomes more difficult you are lost.

We did some math tutoring for him to get him on track.

 I can speak to this from personal experience.   It describes exactly what happened with me and math.   I went from Math whiz is elementary school to math struggle as it got more complicated.  Unfortunately it wasn't recognized until Grade 12 until a physics teacher got to the bottom of it.   I was a whiz at the theory part and could understand complex ideas (like relativity) but stuggled with the dry mechanics of the math part of the subject.  I knew what I had to do  in theory but had problems making it happen.   He saw it (thank goodness) and had an explanation and said pretty much the same, I was intuitive with math and science and would have benefited from a different approach that was commonly used to teach the subject.   So not a learning disability per say but it did manifest itself on the outside as one.     It's one of things I wish had been figured out sooner like with your son because  I went through all of highschool being 'dumb' at math.  A's and B's in every other subject, including University level ones but 'stupid' in Math.    It was a struggle to  'catch up' in University and by that time, due to not taking higher level math classes in highschool, (because I thought I was too dumb to do them and was basically told as much by my math teachers) it was a barrier to studying certain subjects like some sciences which I was very interested in.    I had to start at remedial levels to get to the point where I could take them.

Coupled with all that  in Uni while I was doing some math assessment I did discover though that I did have a very mild form of dyslexia.   I would transpose numbers and read them wrong, most;y 2s and 7s.    I had known for years I did this but always just chalked it up to being careless because that's what my teachers told me.   I also always had problems with spelling.  My reading comprehension and understanding was always above grade level and considered 'gifted' but spelling?  Not so much.   I was always told that it was due to being careless etc etc.    I could write a word out 100 times with the right spelling and three days later it would be gone.     The learning assessor at Uni said it was related to this mild dyslexia and not beat myself up over it.   It just has to do with the way my brain processes information.  He said in this case they refered to it as mild dyslexia but upon further reasearch I did myself it's related to this 'intuitive' way of processing information that the science teacher talked about.      

I still do these things to this day.    Spelling still stinks though it's not as much of an issue in the age of spellcheck.  I did have to get over feeling embarassed about it though.   It was an issue in University english exams where spelling was actually marked and I did have to work with my teachers on that issue.  For the most part, since I knew and understood what was going on they were quite accommodating, 

I  have to be careful when working with numbers and make sure I double check if I'm doing them on paper.   My 'disability' technically still exists but once I was able to get a handle on what was actually going on I was better equipped to deal with it. 

Although my case is very mild compared to other who have problems with aspects of learning there are several things I have learned from it.     I have had people call me dumb, stupid, careless etc at times.   Frustrating and hurtful because a "disability" whether mild like mine or more acute has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.    Sometimes, as it was with me and Last Pointes son with  it's more related to how  one learns and all that's needed is a tweek or different learning process.     In Uni I was given a math book that was mostly stories.  Not story problems but actual stories.  I whizzed through two highschool grades of math with that method of learning in a matter of months.   Boy do I wish I had been taught that way in highschool it would have saved years of grief.

I also do have a bit of problem with the term disabled or disability.   I think it can apply in some cases but I know in some cases it's not a disability it's just a different ability or inability to learn within the confines of  more common forms of teaching and learning methods.  Once the issue is assessed and understood learning can happen if the learning and teaching happens differently.     I don't like refering to my issues as 'disabled' , that's why when I talk about it I tend to use scare quotes.   I'm not 'disabled' I just process some things differently then what is considered the 'norm'.      It makes me wonder how many other kids and adults for that matter  either get labeled or have problems because they don't do or learn in ways that are considered 'normal'. 

Hey DaisyJane - hopefully the outcome of your son's assessment will be positive, in terms of making useful recommendations of strategies to facilitate his learning, and coaching for you (not that you need it!) re effective advocacy with the teachers.

Our daughter followed a similar trajectory - very bright (indeed much of her testing result showed in the 97th percentile), very intuitive, great early scholastic performance, excellent auditory memory - but some significant processing difficulties evident on evaluation.  She was able to use all her compensatory strategies until reaching about grade 7 - which is quite typical for many gifted LD kids, as  I understand it - but then the difficulties emerged.  Her presentation was unfortunately camoflagued by some pretty rebellious acting out behaviours - so it wasn't for a few more years that we finally got testing done, pretty much as a last desperate act to understand what the hell was going on.    She went down that "I'm too dumb" rabbit hole & pretty much quit on herself in early high school.   She did eventually graduate tho - happy to say!  And went on to college - where she resisted going to the special needs office re her challenges - and made life more difficult for herself than it needed to be - but it was up to her.   And she did eventually graduate there too!   And following Judd's motto (which I love!) - keep 'em alive 'til they're 25 - we're out the other end of all that & she's a wonderful, happy, successful young woman!  But it was a journey!!

great points jadespring about labelling ... I wish we could find a different way.

 My son was diagnosed gifted/LD in grade 7.   He was managing not too badly in school;  our school district encourages adaptations/support on the basis of recognized need  (as opposed to a label), so his teachers accommodated his difficulties in lots of ways, and, of course, he had excellent home support!  But he was intensely unhappy and frustrated.  Now we know that he had so much happening in his brain, but such limited ability to show what he knows on paper, that he was always down on himself for not being able to do better.  His teachers always said that if he could just do all his schoolwork orally, he'd get straight As.  (And they did let him do a lot of that).

His psych-ed really changed his life.   Now he understands that he IS bright - very bright - but his brain just doesn't process expressive language in the way it should.  As well, he has a lousy working memory, which also makes things more difficult.  It has given him insight into who he is as a unique learner, and he is developing the self-advocacy skills he needs to ask for the adaptations that help him.  I'm thrilled because now everything is documented in his IEP, so he is reasonably sure to get what he needs in terms of being accommodated.

His adaptations are that he is permitted to do all written work on a computer with a spell checker, use a calculator for math,  write his tests orally in the resource room, have extra time, not be docked marks for spelling - that's about it.   Oh, and a block of learning support, too.  

His psych-ed was probably the best $1600 we ever spent.

DaisyJane, I think it’s wise to follow up with an assessment for your son. You will have a better understanding of his strengths, as well as areas for support and hopefully recommendations for tools that the school, you and your son himself can use to support his unique learning needs. My son, in grade 7, has also had a psycho-educational assessment and is gifted, scores extremely high, in most areas. I have enjoyed reading about others' children on this thread. Diana it was interesting reading about your son’s profile (curious that the school district didn’t do the testing and you had to go with private). My son has an excellent working memory, but a slow (relatively, 77^th percentile) processing speed. I can imagine that discrepancies like these could be frustrating for certain tasks given that most areas of their brains are on fire. The psychologist noted that my son could be considered gifted/LD given this discrepancy.

We are noticing that math operations is where he is ‘average’ (including testing average on operations with the psycho-ed testing). As others have noted the operations can be a hang up. My son excels at spatial, problem solving challenges and can’t be bothered to learn math facts. He used to just solve everything easily in his head, and as noted above, this gets a little too complicated at a certain stage. So – he scores average on operations and we continue to work at supporting him to get beyond his reluctance and ‘boredom’ (common quote: “why would I waste my time on those questions when I could just use a calculator” – good point). It also makes sense though for my son’s learning profile – if his processing speed is slower than his other abilities – certain tasks take him longer and I think he knows something is not matching up.

My son also has some challenges with organization and what has helped him significantly has been the use of a laptop at school. Since mid fall, he has taken it every day and does almost all of his work on it. While his hand written skills are okay, he does not enjoy printing and we have found that he is now happy to do ‘written’ work at school, including journal writing on his computer. It also helps that he is so skilled and passionate about computers – he does the work and hands it in electronically through a file system he has set up between himself and his teacher (another computer passionate guy).

DaisyJane – your son sounds like a neat person – I hope he is able to get some solid support. There are so many ways in which learning profiles are unique. I think especially with people who are gifted in some/many areas that having some learning challenges must be so frustrating and it make sense that self worth is affected. Finding out that they have special, exceptional skills can be helpful, especially if there are ways to support the challenges.

 myst - your school district DID THE TESTING?????????     WOW.  wow.  I'm so jealous.

In my district  my son didn't have a hope in hell of getting the ONE psych-ed spot allotted to his elementary school because, with supportive teachers and parents, he was coping, although not well.  Psych-ed spots go only to the most extremely challenged students or are completely wasted in verifying already identified learning disabilities so that the government will permit adaptations to provincial exams, or for confirming that students diagnosed with intellectual disabilities are STILL disabled so that they can access disability services in the adult system. Everyone else is S.O.L unless you can cough up the funds.  Several teachers at my school have LD children and every one of them has paid for private testing. It sucks.    End of rant.  For now.  :)

 umm..didn't bother with oldest..should have..didn't. 

did with the younger one...because he was beating himself up a lot.

testing showed that he had difficulty at that age learning basic building blocks.  Possibly due to a cognitive ld, possibly due to just too much info in that little head.....basically it was to do with the development of the template, but once he had it, he would excel and take those blocks and build and build.  (Went from reading later than the average, to reading adult science fiction novels in a very short time)

We have pulled it out when he had problems with a teacher.  (I remember the look on the teacher's face when we pointed out the answer he had written for "how do bats find things" ... answer he wrote was echolocation which had been spelled incorrectly....when the teacher was looking for the answer  "they bounce sound" -- the teacher had marked the answer as incorrect.)

It was given to his teacher in the year he was really struggling with self-esteem and coming home saying he was "stupid".

It was primarily used to help us understand how  to coach him.

Basically, people thought he was lazy, as he wasn't getting stuff, given his other abilities. Reality was...he wasn't lazy...he just took longer in the basics.

I struggle with all the testing, etc..you know that..and we have not had him retested, though it was recommended we do it.  

Diana, only one student gets a psycho-ed assessment in that school?? Wow. I think there were a few alloted for the school in your district that mystchild used to attend (it was a large school). But at that school they did school based assessment, which was quite helpful, in grades 2 and 4. While Vancouver doesn't have a lot more resources there is more than one available assessment per school. Yes, we feel very fortunate that the school set our child up for testing  in order to help with appropriate high school placements and support. 

Pinga - and others - I get sad hearing stories of students who are deemed lazy or not trying hard enough etc. and self-esteem gets deflated. Sigh. And I can't believe that the teacher marked echolocation wrong ... argg.

 well, it was spelled phonetically...I had asked to see his papers/marks, and looked at the one he had miserably failed.  I pointed out what youngestson had actually written, the teacher was  like, "oh shit"...and then remarked the paper finding all sorts of "better than was asked for" answers.

Jadespring

Your story describes me quite a bit.  I used to think that I was just inconsistant and careless also, and in some ways it is correct. In order to read, I have to slow down and really focus and can not speed read as my sister and brother were able to.  My brother was also very gifted with math and this made me feel convincingly stupid.  I did enjoy wallowing in self pity about that for awhile, but did resent not being able to read very well.

Because, as you say, my brain was quite complex and capable of holding a lot of ideas.  Example, it was painstaking to learn how to read poetry but I was always confused why it took others twice as long to understand the meanings behind a poem.  I grew very frustrated with others' slowness in being able to analyze poetry, people, philosophy. art,  . . .  and began to feel a double freak.  One for being slow, another for not being slow.

It really is a matter of right and left brain connexions and yes if we are not left brain dominant as our prevalent western society has decided we should be ( the factory) we do feel stupid..  It takes longer to learn to read well and use a computer and do math formulas but once learned, it is as much the ease as riding a bike and  the more you ride the better you get, always.

Having said that, not all math is the same.  I think we forget that math is just a form of poetry and we get bogged down in tying people to a grade level rather than to a philosophical ability.

jlin - your report about being able to find the 'meaning behind the poem' reminded me of an incident when I was a young adult fresh from the backwoods to the big city and with a crush on a young man in the church.   Our YPU (Young Peoples Union) attented a movie in which a dying mother gave her little boy a red balloon.  The story developed around this boy and his balloon and his grief when it was broken (after what seemed a long time).    It seemed so obvious what this movie was all about.

The next day this guy (who I thought so sophisticated and perfect) said as though he had just realized it, "You know there is a meaning behind the red balloon."   I searched my mind, wondering what this dumb bunny had missed.    Finally he told me rather condensendingly I think now, "It represented his dead mother."    DUH    Did it take him 18 hours to figure that one out?   And as the others in the group huddled round him murmuring "Yeh, that's right. "  "His mother did give him the balloon'  'I never realized . . .'      and I'd thought I'd missed something deeper.  

Seeler

EXACTLY THAT !   And didn't it make you feel like an outsider for not having the comfort  of being able to follow behind the agreed-upon leader/smart person?

Definitely lkin.  Uncomfortable, and almost as though I was on a different wave length.