It was my mother who ruled the household.  (My father ate, slept, went to work - but never seemed to relate much to us children - perhaps having been separated from us during our early years by WW2.)  We did our chores and lessons.  We minded our manners.  And it would never have occured to us to answer back or argue.  That's not to say that we didn't ask questions, or beg favours - but we knew when to stop. 

"Mom, can I have a nickel to go to the store and buy a popsicle (or permission to walk up to the lake and go swimming - or to get out of washing dishes when a friend called for me to go out and play)?"

"No, Betty.   You don't need a popsicle today - you had a treat yesterday."

"Please, Mom.  It's so hot."

"I know it's hot.  Get a drink of water."

"But Mom."

She might relent; but more often her tone of voice would change just a little:  "I said 'no'."   And the discussion would be over.

I believe that I was a bit more lenient with my kids (who are also in their 40s now).  We were a bit more affluent so they got more treats.  I was also rather easygoing aboout their where-abouts - my son rode his bike all over the neighbourhood, and along the trails in the parks, and explored the creek up to the foot of the escarpment.  Their dad was a bit more involved than my father, but I was still the one who did most of the child-rearing.  The kids remember being afraid of him when he raised his voice.  No arguing back after a certain point.

But my grandchildren.  I can't believe what my daughter ignors or puts up with.  There seems to be a different norm these days.  Very little is expected of kids by way of chores and contributing to the household (of course chores like splitting kindling and keeping the wood-box full have gone by the wayside).  Kids expect treats whenever they ask.  They come to the table whenever it suits their fancy - and feel free to reject the meal if it doesn't appeal to them.

My grandson is eight, grade 3.  Not much younger than your son, Dreamerman.  Maybe it's a stage boys hit about that age.  He's gone from being a fairly compliant child to a rude one.  He will ignor my attempts at conversation.  He answers in mumbles and/or rudely if I do get his attention.  He seems to think he is entitled to spread a 'bad mood' to everyone in the household.  He shows no respect.  What does his mother do?  Diddly-squat, most of the time.  She either doesn't notice it - or thinks it is a stage and that her basically good boy will grow out of it.  I'm afraid it will escalate.  His fifteen year old sister has long since discovered that she can shout back at her mother and reduce her to tears. 

Thank you for your reply seeler. I see I am not the only one in this position, but is this the new norm? So are the parents to blame or is it the way of the world?

that's why parents In The KnowTM always install their newborns with Bless'd SilenceTM Off SwitchesR

Some kids know about limits. Others are constantly testing them. Of course it helps if the limits are reasonable. I grew up in an age when those limits were often arbitrary and not subject to discussion. So it engendered in me some willingness to listen to a different point of view (my child's). But there is also a time and place for those discussions, as well as a way of conducting them. A tantrum at the check-out counter is neither the place nor the way to conduct that discussion.  And if that's what a child of mine would do, I wouldn't care what others thought (oh, just give the child the candy!). It then is really all about the power struggle, and I refuse to be left powerless by having to give in to the whims of a 3- (or whatever) year-old.

Fortunately, I was rarely in that position with my two children (BTW - they were 6 years apart, which means I usually didn't have two to discipline at the same time. Divide and conquer can be an important tactic! Interesting to note that when I taught secondary school, some of the most out-of-control kids were really nice one-on-one. But in a group, some have a need to "prove" themselves and show that they are the ones in control. The point that input is valued but control is impossible because they are not the ones carrying the responsibilities is difficult to make at that age).

There are also additional challenges in a more well-off family. The simple excuse of "we can't afford it" rings a bit hollow, and the kids know it. And those kids often see what other kids get and want it too. And there are so many more "things" to get these days.  Trying to promote a way of life that is less centred on "things" becomes increasingly difficult. And if children rarely see those values in adults other than their parents (for example, they don't go to church or don't help out in the community garden), kids can lose respect for their parent's values. So it's not just about what the parents say, but about what society says. We need to work harder to find ways of supporting parents. Too often parenting is done in isolation, to the advantage of no one except the kid's whims.

Talking back needs to be done with ground rules. Kids need to be able to have some sense that the "rules" are reasonable. Otherwise all we're raising are little automotons and that discourages creativity, which our society needs more of, not less. But as I mentioned above, there is a time, a place and a way to carry that out. Not respecting that needs consequences (most notably ones involving isolation, such as no electronic communications with peers who they will turn to in an attempt to stoke their feelings of injustice) - because the consequences when they grow up without those ground rules will be severe - failure at school, job loss, possible legal actions for not recognizing boundaries with fellow workers when "my" interests are all that matters, drug use etc.  Of course those examples are extreme, but we are increasingly living in a society of extremes.

Final point - sometimes a little humour would help.

Hi dreamerman,

Slightly different for me.  Father was an office to be respected even if the man who held it was obviously faulty.  The same was true for Mother.  Disagreement was permitted, disrespect was not tolerated.  To this day I can freely disagree with my parents if I cross the line into disrespect my own conscience takes a round out of me.

Mom and Dad were very much a united front and they had support from all adults in the family.

Our family was not particularly large, I am the oldest of two kids and while the average size for a family of my parent's siblings was four they don't rank as particularly large.  On my Father's side I suspect it had more to do with Presbyterianism while on my Mother's side I suspect if had more to do with her older brother and his time in the airforce.  Either way in the event of disagreement you stepped lightly.

Your upbringing seems sensible and normative to me and I'm in my forties as well.

I am father to a soon to be 21 year old son, an 18 year old daughter and a soon to be 17 year old daughter.  All three have the capacity to be immensely respectful.  There are times when they fail to let that show for one reason or another.  For my son it is when he is under stress and for my daughters stress and hormonal surges can lead to behaviour that simply does not fly under our roof.

When they were your sons age the word no would often reduce them to tears.  I suspect it was the volume and not the actual word.

While there might be times where I am tempted to think that my wife is getting some grief that is well earned and she probably is tempted to think the same about me it has been our agreement, from before our son was born that we would be a unified front before them when it came to rudeness or disrespect.

Also, the agreement is that we never self-justify with the "Because I am the dad and I say so!' crap.  The kids all understand that when I say that I am playing a game and they are invited to play along.  That said, if they have just given their mother grief by way of rudeness or disrespect they have as long as it takes me to clear my throat to make amends or I tag in and I will not be gentle.

The same holds true going the other way.  If I am getting rudeness and disrespect their mom will ask them to repeat what they said, that is her cue that at the very least the edge in tone better be flipped all the way to honour and respect or there will be hell to pay.

Which is not either one of us saying that our spouses are always right.  It is our way of saying right or wrong you will respect my spouse your parent.

Even when my wife is being childish (It is probably not at all surprising that I can be the same) she is still my wife.  Diss her and you diss me.  The kids know we roll that way around here so there is never any of the "you always take her side guilt trip" because I don't feel guilty about siding with my wife.

I don't always agree with her and sometimes I even think that she is being unreasonable.

In that event we discuss privately the situation and where we think it should go.  In terms of family dynamic I advocate for my kids, just not in front of them if I am going to bat for them against other members of the family.  It is a face saving mechanism.

My kids have all been schooled in the art of contrition and they know how to maturely apologize for liberties taken.

Not routinely, I can empathize slightly.  I've had long days with the girls where no matter what I said or did it was the wrong thing to say or do and not having their mother around to haul my considerable fat out of the fire made the situation worse.  Of course that isn't a constant thing either though it can be frequent.  I chart these things so that I can see the hormone express coming over the horizon.

When all thrree are on the same train, I warn my son and we lie as low as we possibly can.  He, having a place of his own offers me refuge in the event I might need it.

It is a parenting option that doesn't seem to arise automatically when couples find out that they are about to be kids.

Given that it appears to cause you some stress you might want to have a talk with your wife just so you can clarify, to her, how much stress your sons rudeness is causing you and strategies that might be used to make sure your son gets the idea that being rude to his dad is out of bounds.

Out of curiosity, is he just as rude and disrespectful with your wife?

Now, your son at nine is probably testing boundaries as any nine year old is prone to do (it will probably get worse before it gets better). I would think that nine is not too young to have a candid conversation with him about boundaries that he is crossing.

Sometimes when kids are testing boundaries it isn't because they want to eliminate them it is because they want to know that there is something there to protect them.  If you won't stand up against your son would you be able to stand up for him?  Does he need to see a dad who will stick up for himself?

I have no way of knowing.  I am mindful that these options have come up in families from time to time.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Little M and I have a mixed relationship. When it comes to his overuse of (dare I say it, addiction to) computer games, we have a rather bitter war of wills going on. His politics drive me a big crazy at times, too (he's a loud, outspoken, fairly hardcore libertarian with a bit of a conservative streak, while I'm more of a democratic socialist though with some sympathy for the libertarian position). OTOH, we have some great discussions on a variety of topics over meals or when we're just hanging out. The rudeness and disrespect happens, but he also seems to get genuinely upset over his own behaviour at times. Still working to find a balance that works for all of us because it's not helping my own mood (which is a bit low to start with) to have to keep struggling with him.

Mendalla

Respect's kind of mutual and it's learned, in my family experience, by it being evident and natural in all of the family relationships. Disrespect simply got ignored. Simply outright demands too. Often the reall issue is attention seeking and attention denial… business and personal priorities in conflict. Transition into teenage years is hard and teenage years are harder. Peer influences are very often crap.  So it's up to parents and siblings to really get involved in smoothing the way and shifting the focus of attention to the kids who are finding it hard. 

It's a lot of effort for all.

Hi Rev John, my son and my daughter can be at times very rude to their mother probably more so than towards me. I guess with my wife being a highschool teacher  I thought that she might have more control over their behaviour go figure. They do have their moments when their good as gold but it doesn't last very long.

PS, their teachers say they are very well behaved in school. So I guess they keep their best behaviour for school and save the rest for home. I wonder why that is. I have a couple of guesses to why.

I like Barbara Collarossa's approach to parenting. She says pick your battles-is it immorral, illegal  or unsafe? Let the kids cut/colour their hair however they want. It's only hair!

She talks about parents needing backbone-not being stonewalls that never  bend or being jellyfish that never say no but somewhere inbetween.

Your kids shouldn't swear at you but they should be able to disagree with your position.

Parents also need to back each other up and present aUnited front to the offspring.

Tab, I always wis.h I had Barbara Collarossa Back then. I only had Rossanne Barr.

Parenting well is hard.  IMO it starts before the kids arrive with the adults openly chatting about their childhoods and  their desires for their future kids.

To me it seems crucial that both the adults have a clear idea of how they would like these little ones will behave once they enter the world as adults.  Then that behavior has to modelled as well as they can do it.  (We parents aren't perfect which makes it easier to forgive the kids when they temporarily lose it!). If we want the kids to be kind, generous, honest, respectful etc then they have to be able to see the parents working at being kind, generous, respectful and honest.

We found that at least some disagreements could be solved before they really became problems.  Allow the kids to respectfully give their opinions and discuss them without judgement.  Bring up topics that will be 'relevant issues' in a year or so for friendly conversation at meals and in the car.  We had some great conversations with our kids and learned more about their lives when they were away from home.  This also gave us a chance to let the kids know what our thoughts were about such things as underage drinking, use of a family car, who is responsible for the costs of further education and so on.

We parents did not name call and that was a basic house rule.  Everyone had a right to their own opinion but it was to be given without swearing and insulting language.  Mostly we tried to walk away from explosive disagreements and bring the subject up again later.  Sometimes, if a request was a new venture (nine year old wants to camp alone with one other nine year old for example)  one parent would say "I'd like some time to think about that and to discuss it with mom/dad".

We were fairly open about the amount of money available to meet the family needs and made an honest effort to be fair to each kid.  Bank statements were sometimes left on the table where they could be seem by the kids - also the written budget.  I recall one child being amazed when she discovered that when the charge card was used the items still had to be paid for!  If one or all the kids had a longing for an item we sometimes bargained - "That is a bit more money than we have.  Is there a way you can contribute towards it?" 

One last thing I'd like to say is - I have seen many children grow from babyhood to adulthood.  The were raised in a wide variety of families, with different family climates.  Almost all of them functioned adequately by the time they were about 25! 

the most important thing??  PICK YOUR BATTLES WISELY.

it is natural for your kids to rebel against you.  really, if they DON'T you need to be worried, imho. 

so you want to sit down with your partner and figure out what boundaries have some leeway, and which ones are carved in stone.   and you have to figure out consequences together as well, cause you both have to be on the same page... if a kid can divide and conquer, they will.  make sure you both stand together, or you are screwed.

once you have those perameters figured out, i'd find a way to impart them to your kid, so that they know - with total certainty - what is expected of them, and what the consequences are should they choose to disobey.  obviously for toddlers and stuff this will happen as you go along, but once our kids were teenagers we would sit them down periodically and go over the rules.  we'd always give them lead time, too, so that they would have time to think about any questions.

is that all you wanted to know, or do you want me to go into our consequences as well??

Hi dreamerman,

That is not good to hear.

How do you respond when your children treat your wife in that way?

Well, it isn't unreasonable to think that a teacher might have better resources to deal with these kind of situations.  Even so classroom management is not the same as parenting.

How does your wife feel when the children treat her this way?

No child is perfect.  Still, that you only see moments of goodness as opposed to wide swaths of it would be disconcerting.

So they do know how to behave well in a given context.  Unless the teacher is grading on a curve and their classmates are much, much worse.

One reason may have to do with home being a safe space.  At home love is not negotiable it is a fundamental right.  At school love is not a fundamental right but respect is.  Behave badly at home and a good parent still loves you.  Behave badly at school and while you will still be respected that doesn't immunize the student from disciplinary measures.

Home should always be safe space.  It doesn't have to foster disrespect.

Grace and peace to you.

John

Th last time my daughter and granddaughter had a shouting match in my livingroom (granddaughter was hungry an hour before dinner would be ready and, rather than take my suggestion of fixing herself some carrot sticks, or fruit, expected her mother to dash out for fast food) - I sent my granddaughter crying heartbrokenly to the spare room.  I left her alone for about five minutes - signaling to my daughter not to go to her - engaging in ordinary conversation with grandson.  Then, when I considered that she was calm enough to listen, I went into the room, insisted that she roll over and look at me, and gave her a talk about how I expected her to behave in my home - including treating her mother with respect.  Then I told her how much I loved her, and that when she was willing to appologize to us both, she could rejoin us.  I closed the door and joined the family in the livingroom.   A few minutes later she, sheepishly, came out, sat down and mumbled an appology to her mom.  I decided to overlook the lack of appology to me since she seemed genuinely sorry.  The rest of the evening went well. 

That was a month ago.  She has been a delight at my home ever since - cheeerful, cooperative, helpful.  She still has shouting matches with her mother at their home.  I don't know whaat I will do if one happens when we visit over Christmas.  Dare I 'lay down the ground rules' in their home?

Oh darn!  just lost my previous reply!!  Let me try again!

Well done Seeler.  To answer your question - I don't think you can lay down rules in the home of another person.  It would be fair tho, IMO, if the behaviour occurs, to comment that you feel very uncomfortable with how people are speaking to each other.

To a large extent, I do support the view that we teach others how to treat us.  IMO, this also extends to parenting.  If we allow behaviours to go unchecked, we may in fact be giving tacit approval & can expect to see more of the same.  Here's a link to an article about that too .. http://www.parentingworx.co.nz/user-content/657-teach_others_how_to_treat.pdf

I like RevJohn's comment above - Home should always be safe space. It doesn't have to foster disrespect.  I'm also a big fan of Barbara Colorosso - if you haven't read her stuff - do!

Dreamerman - it seems more like a communication style that is developing, rather than what I would call a power struggle.   I've found that sometimes parents can get into power struggles with each other re how to manage kids behaviours - in such a case it can be very helpful to find a book to read together or go to a parenting course for some tips - that way any changes you make are 'neutral' - not "my way wins".   

Hoping you find a way through this ... hang in there!  Parenting is a tough journey sometimes, this I know well from my own experiences.  Thinking of you.

Sometimes I think I am overreacting. Maybe I am dwelling on the negative bits and not seeing the positive side enough. Anyway I think being on the same page with your spouse is very important when enforcing the rules of the home. My wife and I hopefully can come to some agreement on a suitable punishment for bad behaviour. Like others have been saying some kids will see how far they can push the envelope.