Mists

I detached my brain from my heart because my brain was being a pain in the ass about having kids and my heart couldn't take it anymore.  So, for a period of about 5 years I just told my rational mind to stuff it and that my body had a good reason for storing so much information about fertility and health and having healthy kids.  Even if I wasn't the right economic class, even if I wasn't beautiful or tall or amazing, my womanly art of child bearing and rearing was more than just me, it was a communal decision that I could enjoy personally.   Sounds stupid, but the anthropologist in me turned off the century. sure,, it's been extra work and we go nuts because we are up against it but my partner and I know that having these2 kids was the sanest thing we will ever have done, regardless of what society tends to tell us. 

Each person is different, each family is different.  I guess by the time I married (I was 23 but in my part of the country at that time most girls married in their teens) I expected to be in the work force most of my life.  So, while I definitely wanted a child, it seemed that perhaps one child would fit in lifestyle just fine.  And just before our first anniversary Seelerboy was born - our mark in the world.

And almost before we could get used to being parents, and definitely before my body was back to its natural rythms Seelergirl was on the way - the joy of our lives.    And my (rather vague) plans for being a professional woman were gone.

We stopped at two - my health was not good, we were in bad financial shape, we had no family support (We had moved to a different province; my sisters were busy with small children of their own, my husband's brothers were batchlors who knew nothing about babies).  And two children, a year apart, kept me busy.

It was when they were about 4 and 5 that I began to long for another baby.  A few years later I suspected that I was pregnant, and eagerly started thinking about what it would be like for the family - only to be rushed to the hospital hemorraging from a tubal pregnancy.

During my forties, I would wake up at night from dreams of being pregnant, of having another child.

I think that I will always regret not having another.  I still mourn for the one I lost.   Now as a senior with one child living on the other side of the road, single, with no children - and the other not well, I wonder what it would be like to have another, in his/her thirties now, living within a day's drive or so, perhaps with a family.  Would I have more grandchildren than the two I have now?  Would there be less pressure on Seelergirl to feel that she is responsible for me? - I try not to make her feel this way but she knows how important she is to me.

Would it be nice to say to Mr. Seeler:   George (or Eve) will be home this weekend - let's have Seelergirl and the kids over and make it one big family. 

Or were two children the right decision for me?

ps:   When we first met Mr. Seeler thought that six might be a nice number.  When Seelerboy was first born he thought one was fine.

When my husband and I got married we had this idea that we wanted three kids.  We were both from families with three kids and it seemed like a good idea.  I know.  We aren't very original, but hey, we're okay with that.

We almost bailed after specialson (he's #2 of three boys).  He was a such a challenging journey for the first few years of his life that I spent most of my time walking around in a sleep deprived haze barely able to form sentences and nurturing a kick a$$ caffeine addiction.  Deep down I knew that if the physicians who injured Matthew also caused us to throw in the towel about having our third child it would simply be one more thing we had lost to their incompetence.  We threw the birth control out just to see what would happen with number three and were knocked up within weeks if I remember correctly.   He is a delightful nine year old today and I thank God everyday that we had him.

Ultimately you know yourself best.  You know what you can handle, what your body can handle, and what feels right.  You will make the best decision for you!

I think that is probably the most brilliant/wonderful thing I have ever read.

 It is really natural to be ambivalent about having a second child.  Everything is going well and you worry about rocking the boat.

We have two, 3 years apart. ( age separation is another very personal thing)

I love having two.  They are different experiences.  I love that they have siblings to share, learn from , disagree with.......

The second is different.  I was more tired when pregnant because of caring for a toddler.  And yet the early days of her life were easier because I was already used to a schedule with the first.

It isn't unusual to have trouble coping after child birth.  Only our generation tries to do it alone.  Our mothers had sisters, mothers, aunts all living within blocks of each other.

I would ask your mom to give you a week or two of time.   come live with you and share in the joy of a new baby and help with your first.  It is a great experience to share with your mom as well as your hubby

everything you said Jiln:     (consider the last two to be big toes.)

loving this thread

I have 2 and am very happy to have them both.  Same money worries, but I kept my family close by and didn't suffer from PPD.  Mine are nearly 3 years apart (as Lastpointe said, very personal as well -  people thought I was waiting for ages!)  and I love that spread.  They keep each other fairly good company and it changes the relationship between adult & child. The child isn't just my hip extension  :)  We have tons of fun as 4, and it makes for some lovely afternoons with kids playing while we grown ups read, or snuggle or relax.  But I was tired after the 2nd.

A bit of info - this is the only culture in the world that abandons a new mom to her own energy after the birth of a child.  In some cultures, the mother is not left alone for 40 days!  Everywhere else, it is expected that sisters/aunts/friends/mothers etc will be around assisting (even as you said - someone responsible while you have a nap!)  There are some good books around about how to support a mom without taking over.

Staying at one is best if you know inside you'll be happiest/most stable.  No matter how many - they need a stable, confident mom.  They just need lots of time with cousins & friends where they share toys & choices (ie- what's for lunch).  They need you to be the loving parent, not a buddy, though being a buddy is fun sometimes no matter how many you have.  They need to learn empathy and compassion and tolerance even if it isn't front and center.  (flipside- Multiple siblings need to learn too that they have a voice that counts for something and sometimes they do get their way)

My favourite parenting book:  Kids Are Worth It by Barbara Coloroso.  Good for all of you no matter how many kids.  :) 

MistsOfSpring - far be it for me to tell any woman what choices to make in terms of having kids, such a personal decision. For us, we're not planning, we're taking it one at a time. We knew we wanted a child - we had our beautiful little Liam. We know we want another - we'll have two. The magic number in my head used to be four. Who knows. Maybe we'll get there. Maybe we'll stop with the next one. Maybe we'll exceed 4. We'll know what's right for our family. I strongly believe that.

What I will say is this - if your main concern is about your postpartum health, mental or otherwise, definitely consider adoption. Not saying 'do it' - again, incredibly personal. And it depends on whether your concerns about bonding and feeling the same about both children etc. are a general concern, or a concern that's come about by knowing yourself personally. Because if it's the latter, it might not be the right choice. But if it's the former - just a societal expectation that adopted families don't bond as well - Liam is adopted and I can't imagine loving a biological child any more than my little man. Similarly, if there are concerns beyond postpartum, of course adoption doesn't necessarily resolve those. But from what you're describing, where you want another child, but are concerned about some of the health repercussions and potential bonding, I think some research into adoption could at least be useful to you as you consider that last undecided 5% of your mind.

Either way, best of luck on your journey though - what works for one family doesn't always work for another, and only you and your people at home can make that decision. The fact you are taking it so seriously and making no choices rashly makes me confident that you'll absolutely make the right one. Blessings.

Hi mists ... sounds like you've been giving this lots of contemplation and I feel quite certain you'll reach a decision that's right for you.  I agree with Birthstone's words about kids needing a stable & confident mom.

We have two kids, three and a half years apart - now 23 and 26.  The pregnancies and deliveries were very different.  The second time around, you're starting from a different place, physically, emotionally, experientially.  They are two very different kids with unique ways of being in the world.  They love each other dearly - although not always obviously.

To your question - I was one of three & so was my husband.  He felt 'done' after one, I definitely wanted two.  Three wasn't even on my radar as a possibility - but a vasectomy was!   In my experience, two is much more than twice the work and demand on energy.   When they were little & one was out of the house, it seemed a luxury - nothing much to do!    At least having two kids & two adults in our family - one-to-one time was perhaps easier  when desired, or needed.

Across the street from us, is a family with one child - same age as my first.  She has been like another sister to our kids, and ours have been her 'siblings' in some ways.  I imagine the three of them will always have a close relationship. 

Best wishes to you in your discernment of what's best for you.

Hi MistsOfSpring,

After the birth of our first my wife immediately said, "never again."  I was okay with that.

As soon as our son was weaned and not needing to be held and cuddled so much as he needed to be off and exploring she felt a longing for another baby.

We miscarried that child and for a while my wife said, "never again."  I was not happy with that decision.  I understood and honoured it.

Then we became pregnant about a year later.  This butterball (10lbs 2oz) was a long delivery.  She has had her own timeframe and agenda ever since.  My wife again said, "never again."  And I was okay with that. 

After this one was weaned the desire for another baby came back with no particular intensity.  We employed several forms of birth control since our daughter managed to beat the odds on the single form we were using.

18 months later three forms of birth control pointed fingers at the other and said I thought you had it and we had our third child.  Staying true to script my wife declared, "never again."  I was okay with that though I had been down this road a number of times so I waited.

Baby #3 was weaned and the desire to have another never grew, if anything it faded and so, having had two children beat the odds on respective birth controls we decided to go with the more proven method of vasectomy a year and a half after the birth of our second daughter.

Now, as luck would have it I apparently stored sperm well and more than 6 weeks after the surgery swimmers were still present in my sample.  They were still present at 8 weeks though declining in number.  The doctor was slightly impressed at my ability to beat his secure sugery.  Finally at 10 weeks I was pronounced clean, not that my wife was as confident as the doctor was.

For a long time three was enough for us and we went through quite a bit of stuff together.

Now we are in the process of adopting a fourth.

Knowing the right number might be difficult.

The only time I have run into a wrong number of children is when they obviously could not be cared for.

So long as you have the time and the love and you can swing it financially I think the sky is the limit.

Grace and peace to you.

John

We had three. We were done. 10 years later we had another - the joy of our lives. We can plan all we want  but there are still some mysteries and tricks that are in store for us.

You're adopting John.  Very cool.

The odd time I went through a moment where I wished we had tried for a fourth.  Perhaps a little girl!  We did also briefly talk about adoption after the fiasco with specialson's birth.  Deep down I know that three was the number for us.   I actually physically cannot have anymore children which is sort of sad, but I am grateful for my three!!! 

Thanks for a lot of interesting and heartfelt replies. 

I've thought a lot about how this culture treats motherhood compared to others, and after my own experience I can't help but feel that it just isn't meant to be this way.  I got much more support than most women I know, but I still didn't get all the support that I needed.  I really don't know how other women do it, especially when they have other small children to care for.  

I'm definitely not longing for another baby.  I think what it really comes down to is that I want to know NOW if we'll have another baby or not so I can make decisions and get things done.  If we aren't going to have another baby, there's no point in hanging on to all of Rachel's baby stuff that is taking up so much space and my husband and I should really start discussing permanent birth control.  That tiny 5% is just the nagging worry that I might want another child in the future, and I don't want to make any big decisions just in case, but I feel like I'm in limbo here.  I do get the feeling that I'd like to have a second sometimes, but it's usually squashed pretty quickly the next time Rachel wakes me up at night or when I think about the other things I want to do in life.  BUT...circumstances could change.  Slim as the chances are, I don't want to regret getting rid of the crib and the pack 'n' play and all the sleepers, not to mention regretting a tubal ligation, if I decide that we should have another baby in a few more years.  (I don't know whether to be annoyed with Jim for leaving the decision completely to me or thankful.)

Perhaps right there you have your answer.  At least for the moment.

You don't need to do anything permanent for a few years, but perhaps go with your present thoughts.  In the end, if you give Rachel's stuff away and things change you can get other baby stuff.  If your part of the world is anything like mine the hand-me-down networks for baby stuff can be pretty incredible.

I am not sure how old your child is.  You mention waking you up at night so maybe she is still quite young.

Lots of people don't want "only" children and that can be a big reason for a second.

If you are concerned about assistance, you cna arrange with your mom/sisters or you can hire a person to be with you.  Again, someting to consider related to cost.

If you are unsure then I wouldn't rush to permanent birth control.  The risk is that you will change your mind.

Get rid of the baby stuff.  If the crib is new you can always dismantle it and store it under the bed.  Or loan it to a friend on the understanding that you might like it back.

Pick a few favourite baby clothes and give the rest to a pregnant friend or Good Will.  More can be purchased and who knows you might need opposite sex stuff anyway.

I doubt many couples are 100% sure, and even if sure that doesn't mean you will have another anyway.  For me, I was sure I wanted a sibling and that I envisioned our family as larger than 3.

I pretty much always knew that I wanted 3 kids.  My husband wanted 4 (at the time).  We had 3.  I then knew that I did not want any more.  Eventually I had a tubal ligation.  I am happy with my family (although I'd gladly give my teenager away for a few years!!)  If you really don't think that you want another baby, be happy in that decision and move on.  I often feel guilty for having so many children given the environmental impact.  Your daughter will not need siblings in order to have relationships in life.  My kids live together but generally don't "play" together.  They all have their own friends. 

Go with your gut and good luck!...cms

I have one, but I would really have loved to have had another.  I'm 42 which was my cut-off age and we're making arrangement to have my husband fixed.  If we won the lotto or one of us got an amazing job I would definately consider adopting an older child, but I don't want to do the baby thing again at this age.

She'll be 4 in November.  She doesn't wake me up so much anymore, but it still happens some times, like when she wets the bed.

My wife said, "At least two."  I said, "One, tops.".  Through a mediator, we settled at two.

It has been hell ever since.

The 3 year old is awful.  Last night, she called me "my best friend" and gave me a hug, but I knew what she was thinking.  The 6 month old boy is devious, too.  His eyes light up when I come home, like he's plotting my destruction.  It's terrible.  I watch my back around them, constantly.

I can't see us having another.  Well, not planned, anyway.  I'll be setting up an appointment to "get the beans decaffeinated" in the fall, between cycling and ski seasons.  I figured doing that just before cycling season was a bad idea.  We have a new house coming in the new year, and it will have two kids bedrooms with a shared bathroom between them.

I feel that two allows us to give them plenty of opportunities, while allowing my wife and I to have a bit of a life outside of the kids from time to time.  I hope they both pick up our love of sports while they grow up, and we should have the means to provide them the opportunity to advance as far as they want to, in both academics and athletics.  With any luck, they'll have my coordination and my wife's brains.  If it's the other way 'round, they're doomed.

Other parents will feel differently, for different reasons.  We like 2.  When my wife became pregnant with our second, she asked me, "What if it's twins?"  My body convulsed.

I think you have a valid point about finances.  Kids are expensive and we also wanted to be able to provide certain things that we were not sure of doing with a larger faMILY.

Many sports are really expensive,; hockey, skiing, being big ones for equipement but even ordinary sports like soceer can really add up in fees.  And hope your kids never get the horse riding bug.  That is really big bucks from what I hear

As it turns out, we're moving to King Township - horse country.  If they get the horse riding bug, we'll tell them to ask their grandparents for the money.  Skiing is expensive enough, thanks.

If you want to give your children every advantage, it probably does make sense to limit the number of children.  But I would tread carefully giving advice about this.  The most important thing children need is love, and love doesn't cost a lot.  So as long as you can provide a roof over their heads (even in a rental), and adequate food for a healthy diet, I don't think people should decide not to have children. 

I know of two sisters.  The oldest went to university, lucked into an excellent position, married a man with a good career.  They were well established in their own home in an ideal location when they had their one child.  They lavish this child with everything - her own room, all the toys, clothes, accessories she could possible want or use and more - the best daycare and nursery school.  Lessons in music, dance, art, drama, swimming, and other sports.   The younger sister didn't do so well.  She works as a cashier at a supermarket.  Her husband also works in the service industry.  They rent an apartment and are saving for a small bungalow.  And the older sister has convinced the younger that it would not be right for her to start a family because "children cost a lot and you would want to give your child all the advantages'.  

If Mr. Seeler and I had waited until we could afford to have children we wouldn't have had the joy of raising our son and daughter to the wonderful adults they are now, or to having grandchildren. 

The very cold winter day (30 below) that my first daughter was born in Kingston, ny VW engine blew up just outside Kingston pen as I was on my way to the hospital. It was a grad student without a cent in the world. I couldn't even afford a bus ticket to the hospital. I had to walk. It was at once the best and the worst day of my life.

One of my ancestors - on the Catholic side, of course -  had 27 children/ If I were his wife,  I would have tied a knot in it while he was asleep.

My wife and I are very conservative, in that we wanted to be in a stable situation before we had kids.  She was in school longer than perhaps anyone in Canada, and I bounced between two jobs and worked for myself for a few up-and-down years.  We could have had kids any time in there, but Jenn needed to finish her PhD.  If we had a kid too soon, getting back to her education could have been tough.  So, we waited, and probably acted a little too much like students for too long.  Say...our twenties.

This is what we did, and why we did it.  Not saying anyone is wrong for their decisions.  Just as we don't feel comfortable going into as much debt as some people do, we needed stability to feel comfortable having a child.  There were ways to make sure we didn't have a kid unexpectedly, and they worked fantastically.

Now, nothing is going exactly according to plan, but we've been through enough disasters in the past few years that we can roll with it better than we could before.  We're probably better parents for the wait as well.  No, kids don't need fully funded RESPs, ski clubs, hockey 4 days a week, or a pony in the back yard to be happy.  But we do feel better knowing that there aren't many career paths closed to our kids due to lack of resources.  It might be tough, but we could make it work.  If they were to earn scholarships like their mom, though, that would be appreciated.

Chansen - I didn't mean this as a criticism of you.  You had a plan and you and your wife were able to carry it out. 

But everyone has a right to make their own plan (at least within reason).  To advice somebody not to have kids or to limit themselves to one child would be wrong  in my opinion (again I wasn't implying that you were advising anyone else).    In the case of the two sisters, they made different life choices when one decided to go to university and the other decided to join the work force just out of high school.  Or maybe the choice wasn't hers to make - she found academics challenging.    Her clock is now ticking, and her sister, whose opinion she has always respected, is telling her that she 'can't afford to have a baby'. 

I agree seeler but the fact is that having a child is expensive.  Many people don't even consider it past the obvious things like child care or one parent staying home.  It is all the other things that add up incredibly .

I think in a decision to have kids or more kids it is just one of many things that you consider.