This is a great topic.

I have 19 nephews and neices and am expecting my first child, so I'm really thinking a great deal about this question. Increasingly, our extended family time, usually on Sundays, is disturbed by people getting up from the dinner table to run to a hockey game, soccer practice, a baseball tryout. There doesn't seem to be any respect for family time, rest time anymore. In fact, Thanksgiving weekend, Easter Sunday and Boxing Day were even interrupted by people running off to other commitments.

I'm beginning to think that we need to re-examine our concept of Sabbath, what it means, and what it can do for the way that we live our lives. I think that we need a movement...a movement against movement for at least one day a week!

headingley,

Hi,

You wrote:

"Is it relevant today?"

Probably more so than our ability to shop 24/7.

John

Sabbath observance is a commandment. Not a request. keep the sabbath day holy. Do no work on the Sabbath day. Is that relevant?

A day of rest is always needed, and should definitely be heeded by employers who would otherwise work their workers into the ground.

The Sabbath is a good day to rest, hasn't always fallen on Sunday or Saturday, but this basic right needs to be heeded. Doesn't have to be a Sunday or Saturday though, but there are definitely benefits to being in sync with other resting people.

I work on the Sabbath. Guess I am going to hell.

The concept of the Sabbath, the day of rest, is exceedingly important. It is dumb to think that it has to be on Sunday. Jesus' Sabbath wasn't Sunday. Is he going to/gone to hell?

I would definitely affirm that Sabbath and Jubilee in our consumer culture is indeed relevant. In fact the implicit alternative community that our faith tradition advocated thousands of years ago has a vibrant resonance for me in my own journey today. If there is any one thing that I have realised challenges the dehumanising tendency of consumerism it is Sabbath and its collective responsibility that must be modelled by each of us as individuals. I thank you headingley for the thread - it is a very appropriate theme for me!

Blessings.

If we believe the Sabbath is relevant, let us ask ourselves this question: The Sabbath in the Bible begins at sunset on Friday and ends at sunset on Saturday. Sunday evening, ie, after sunset, is actually into the second day of God's Bilical week. The Jews have observed this sabbath for milennia. If we think the Sabbath is relevant, shouldn't we be observing God's Sabbath and not a man-made one. There were no clocks when the Ten Commandments were given. Midnight to midnight is man's invention.

I guess I'd like to move away from the rigidity of rules for Sabbath observance. Remember how angry people were with Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. Many things Jesus said and did were a rejection of rigidity of laws. Yes, there is a commandment about keeping the Sabbath holy, but it is important to also think about why that commandment might have been given. In our 24/7 culture we are learning that it is physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually important to have sabbath time. We need a break from doing to focus on being. And we need time to really focus on our relationship with God - the "Ground of our Being". Fortunately for me in my vocation, it isn't necessarily on Sunday. Unfortunately, though, if it isn't on a set day, it is more difficult to have times to count on when people of faith can gather, or when families can count on having time to be together. Something to remember in all of this is that we find time for the things that are important to us. If hockey is vitally important, people find all sorts of time to support that interest. If nurturing our faith is vitally important, people find time to devote to that. How we spend our time (like how we spend our money) says a lot about what we value.

If anyone is looking for some good reading about Sabbath, there is a book by Wayne Muller entitled, SABBATH: Finding Rest, Renewal, and Delight in Our Busy Lives.

Just wanted to add...
The idea of a sunset-to-sunset Sabbath might be helpful. I know Jewish people who go to Friday evening worship. I quite often hear people say that Sunday morning is their only opportunity to sleep in and rest (which is also important), so would people prefer Saturday evening worship? A good way to begin the Sabbath?

ON the one hand, I don't think that it is as important today to observe a Sabbath. The Sabbath was a commandment to have a day or rest, not a day of organized worship. Labour legislation gives people more than 1 in every 7 days off work.

One hundred years ago. Before labour changes in the early 20th Century, labourers had to work six days a week and for 10 or more hours a day. If it weren't for the Church following the Sabbath commandment, these people would likely have had to work every day, with no regular breaks.

The Old Testament was not merely the basis of a religion. It was arguable also a constitution (or constitutions, as it evolved over time) for the ancient state of Israel. It contains directions that now-a-days we would call religious as well as directions we would call secular. Arguably now-a-days, labour regulation has incorporated this commandment of God. No one has to work seven days in a row. People don't even work six out of every seven. We are far exceeding the bare requirement of everyone having the seventh day as a day or rest.

On the other hand, it would nice if we all had the same day of rest, when family could eat together and then have the obligatory Sunday afternoon nap. It there was a vote, I would vote in favour of one day a week being a general "day or rest" -- whether it is Saturday, Sunday or Wednesday, it doesn't matter to me and I don't think it would matter to God.

No..it's irrelevant. We are a secular society..there are many sabbaths...observe them if you wish but leave the rest of us alone.

Athesito, I am not saying you have to worship or anything. It would just be nice if there was one day where people could all get together. Right now, we only have Christmas and Easter and we are about to loose Easter. The setting aside of commerce and consumerism for one day a week is all I would be in favour of -- I'm not in favour of any forced religion.

I think there might be a secular, practical purpose for such a thing. At least here in Calgary, it is getting VERY difficult for stores to find enough staff for the increasing hours shops are supposed to stay open. Just near our house is a Swiss Chalet/Harvey's that closed its drive through, because it can't get enough staff to keep it open. A "Secular Day of Rest" or whatever we want to call it would make it easier for shop managers to fill their schedules.

I too must join in the praise choir for the Sabbath. Of course, we all need a day of rest (I would vote for two or three sabbathes a week!!). All the points in favour and the historical background have been well covered in this thread.

I do think though it would be great if we all shared the same sabbath, where it could be a time of community building, as God calls us to do. We do however live in the age of post-Christendom -- meaning the influence of "The Church" is not dominant in secular society as it once was. As with many things, Christian ideas have been secularized -- Medicare, Foreign Aid, Unemployment Insurance, Widows and Orphan Benefits AND legislated days off. (Now "The Church" is ticked cause they don't get the credit and some have even come to call these programs evil socialism -- too funny)

So my question is how do we acheive the aims of the Sabbath for all, Christian or not, if we already have not with legislative days off? Perhaps we Christians just need to encourage each other and say, "See, there's our influence, and the presence of Christ, in that legislation."

Have your sabbath...just don't impose it on the majority of people that don't observe one.

Atheisto, many, many studies show the importance of a day of rest. If we call it that, and you non-religious people go play hockey or something, can we work together?

Nope....nothing stops you from doing nothing...and me having a choice

working people need two days to decide when to buy groceries etc...

LouLou asked if a Saturday evening would be preferred to Sunday am ... Loulou, if I could find a church service (okay, a fairly progressive liberal one) on Saturday night, I'd be there. Completely. Saturday nights are my "me" time ... time when I read, surf, reflect, think, jot notes to myself, pray, just be with my thoughts. It would be a perfect time for me to attend a faith-based service. I sure don't do it on Sunday mornings, that cuts into the only time I have during the week to sleep in and when my husband and I can take hours to read the paper if we want and the kids can stay in their PJs and eat cheerios while playing Playstation. Every other day is GO GO GO GO GO GO

Headingley, I do think the need for a day of rest is relevant today. Very much so. I don't think the particular day needs to be set as Sunday however. It is not much of a possibility, though -- at least in our society. When you work 5 days a week, and have children in activities, etc ... those 2 free days are spent doing stuff just to keep everyone on track and your life managed! If I had a day of rest, I'd use it to just hang out and have fun with my family ... whether that be relaxing at home watching TV, or going to a park, or going to a movie or a swimming pool. But then that means someone would have to work to run the places where I'm going to enjoy my day of rest!

I think the point is to recognize that we all need time to rest, relax, chill out, and calm down. We should take that time ourselves, recognize that need in others, and encourage our families to do the same. When it is realistic for each family - as long as it is done to keep our bodies & brains healthy, the day/time doesn't need to be strict.

The bible tells us we will observe God's sabbaths forever. What will we be doing. Being with our family is the answer. The Sabbath is a day set apart and sanctified by God so that we can be with our families. I know, some of us have families we'd perhaps not wish to spend ten minutes with, but God is telling us what we are going to be doing forever. God made a covenant with David which cannot be broken. It will continue forever. God is building a family. A family that wishes to come together.

But we have free will. Jesus said if you love me, you will obey my commandments. He wants us to demonstrate that love. Are we making a lot of money by breaking the Sabbath. Are we prepared to forego the money and build up treasures in heaven instead.

"Nope....nothing stops you from doing nothing...and me having a choice"

That's not actually true. If the norm of the society is that everyone is always on call, always working, then those who might wish to no be a part of that will find themselves with option of complying, or being completely unemployed. Given that your very next post talks about how working people need to TWO days off, I don't understand your problem with a mandatory ONE day.

My hope for a realistic compromise would be that everyone is entitled to one (or 2!) says off, but that those days don't have to be at a specific time of the week. Thus, faithful people of all faiths can take their worship day off, non-religious people can take off whatever day they like. Recognising that a compromise by definition makes everyone equally unhappy, what are the problems with my idea?

No need for bickering...personally, I go to Loblaws on a Sunday.

Where's the proof that people are actually coerced into working on a Sunday if they don't want to?

I believe Canada's charter of rights and freedoms includes the right to religious freedom too and so if this is the case then prosecutions would take place, especially in a litigious North American society such as ours.

Personally I see this as a minority trying to assert a situation on the majority of people. See the whacky Eastern province I shall not name where they have been crying out for this medieval practice to stop.

There is absolutely nothing stopping a Christian from observing Sunday as the sabbath in the same way that a Jew can observe his/her own day as his/her sabbath.

I can have a rest day if I want too.....I just take it. I don't ask that everyone around me stops doing what they are doing because I realise that would be arrogant of me to do so.

Atheisto, you need to speak to more people in shift work jobs. Or people in tech support type positions. Or nurses. I'm not talking about Sunday specifically, but even to get 1 dependable day off, without having to carry a pager, or be called in the night before (or that morning).

That's right, and the coalminers in the 19th Century choose to work in the coal mines 12 hours per day, 6 days per week. There was no element of coercion due to economic vulnerability at all.

Of course employers force workers to do things they would rather not. The only thing that protects workers, absent unions, is legislation.

My wife has to work on Sundays, when she would prefer not to. She is not religious, but would like a weekly family day. Obviously, no one has a gun to her head ... I guess it depends what you call "coercion".

Go see a lawyer then. I'm sure they would be glad to take the case.

Look...I fully acknowledge the fact that some workers are abused in this way and there should be legislation to help or the existing legislation should be applied. You though have to acknowledge that you are talking about something else entirely, which is closing Sunday down to the majority of people as a day of choice to do whatever they want so you can impose your sabbath on them.

The two things are only slightly related. For instance, if legislation dictated that after 5 days of continual work the worker would be entitled to a day off, that day could fall anywhere, and I'm sure you would only be happy were it to be a Sunday.

Jeffery..it helps if you draw analogies from present day situations as I can't remember the last time a small child cleaned my chimney.

Thanks,

A.

There is no sunday sabbath. It is man's sabbath. You will not find a midnight to midnight 1st/2nd day of the week sabbath in the Bible. Here lies our confusion. first we need to go back and ask God what He wants. We begin at the beginning of the Bible.

A, I am a lawyer. I don't think that my wife has a cause of action.

The point you made, and which I attempted to counter, is that you seem to think people are "free to choose" when they work. This is simply inaccurate. Although better labour protections exist today than in times prior, people still have to work when the boss says so and the boss has to open the shop when the landlord says so. There is no freedom or choice in some industries.

Did I say Sunday? I am pretty sure that I said I would be equally happy with Wednesday -- no worship required. This isn't a big deal for me. But, if I were to make a wish list of how the world ought to be, I think I would include it.

The Sabbath is a time for rest, sure. I can see the reasoning behind that, we all need some time off.

But, since God has no set time-space continuum like we doo and 6 days can be a few billion years, who says that a day is actually... a day?

And in case I haven't been clear, I am advocating that individuals be allowed to chose what their Sabbath is going to be. NOT forcing everyone to not work Sunday. Big, big difference.

God told Moses to take his shoes off. God was making a point. Moses was standing on holy ground. later, God has a prophet warn us, not to trample on God's sabbaths.

In Acts, we read god will restore His government which will increase forever. Who will be in this government. People like Daniel and Moses who feared God and obeyed His commandments.

The Bible tells us: fear of the Almighty is the beginning of wisdom and understanding. If we don't fear God, we are not likely to feel much need for obedience.

When I studied anthropology, I learned that hunters and gatherers spent 2-3 hours a day "working" (i.e. in economic activities likeproviding food, tools, shelter, etc). Basically, as power and wealth centralise, the work hours increase and work rates accelerate in the name of "productivity".

I grew up in New Zealand back in a time when there were WHOLE weekends: Saturdays were for sport and partying and volunteer work; Sundays were for doing nothing. It was brilliant. Shops would stay open late on Friday night and you'd go as a family into "town". On weekends, virtually everyone and their parents were home or around(even emerhency workers, etc were ratotaed so they had more weekends off than on- asa journalist, if I worked either a Saturday or a Sunday - there were NO Sunday papers) I got TWO days off in lieu during the rest of the week), so a lot of visiting went on and a lot of community based stuff: from theatre and music, dances, parties, sports picnics, afternoon movies on Saturdays when the weather wasn't so good. On Sundays, there were all sorts of activities going on that were more or less related to the life that emanated from churches. Or, you could spend whole weekends at the beach. This idyllic way of life was thanks more to a socialistic political climate, full employment and strong trade unions with negotiated contracts "” and a fairly effective arbitration system.

You got to know everyone, The income spread was much less, "snobs" were about as bad as people got, and everyone worked fewer hours.

Then Saturday shift work (on time and a half payment) came in; then the extra pay got whittled away and we had a six-day week. Now it's 24/7 like the rest of the greedy West.

There were less attractive aspects to it "” young amrried couples started life without refrigerators or furniture and had to save up for a while, there was no television (thatnk God0, and so on "” but it wasn't bad as far as lifestyles went.
I remember when computerisation came in and they started all these "recreation studies" programmes so people would learn how to cope with a 20-hour week in a paperless working world.

Some of us actually believed it might come to pass. Instead... here we are, meeting like this.

RevMatt and others - if RevMatt is a true reverend he should know that "The Sabbath" Headingley is referring to is the TRUE Sabbath as instituted by Yaweh(God) in His Holy Scriptures. SUNDAY IS NOT THE SABBATH!!!! The TRUE SABBATH of the Tanakh has NEVER been done away with as most would have us believe. Keeping the SABBATH is part of the cammandments in the Word. Yeshua (Jesus) has made it plain that we must follow the commandents.

He states that "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven". He also says, "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me".

The Bible tells us, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD". By calling Sunday The Sabbath the church is doing away with Yaweh's Word. Since Yaweh IS the Word they are doing away with God. The Bible makes it very clear in at least two verses that, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will NEVER (my emphasis) pass away". Hence by doing away with the WORD you are doing away with God. I cannot for the life of me understand why the church is unable to comprehend the meaning of the word NEVER.

Saturday is the Sabbath day. God rested on the 7th day at Creation and the Ten Commandments makes it very plain that it is the 7th day, not the first day of the week that we rest on.

But the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath--so it isn't a day of horrible restrictions and rules. it is to be a good day! A day of joy and a time with family as was mentioned.

Hey, cool, a new fundamentalist voice!

I agree that it is very important for Christians to make a habit of the Sabbath. I doubt God cares whether it is Sunday or Saturday, however. But this thread was also about how we observe Sabbath, or rest, time as a society. Since our society is a secular, multi-cultural and multi-faith one, it would not be right to have a law forcing everyone to take Sabbath when we Christians want to. YahwehLover, I agree with you absolutely about the importance of the Sabbath in our faith. The only point of disagreement we have is whether the actual day of the week matters. I don't think it does. But fair enough, maybe it does. Does that mean that we should move worship services? Or do our worship services become something over and above Sabbath?

Of course, as a minister, Sunday is not a restful day for me. Sometimes Saturday is (only 3ish hours of work this morning. And now posting and finishing the order of service. Basically a rest day :)). My REAL Sabbath is Tuesday.

God say he is ploughing our hearts. The Sabbath is a test of where our hearts are and how they are postured towards God. In the OT we read: A man who puts his trust in man is cursed. Paul puts it this way: Follow a man only if that man is in Christ. There are ten commandments and sabbath observance is one of them.

There is only God's sabbath which is sunset friday to sunset Saturday. If we think any other one will do, we have missed the message.

OK, headingly, but you still haven't answered my questions. When do we worship? How does the Sabbath law apply in a secular nation?

Forgive me for not answering sooner. We worship together as a family on the sabbath. Most of us enjoy a weekend brought to us by a secular. society, so Sunday is also a day off. I think I understand what you are getting at. How do you observe the Sabbath if your employment overlaps. Rather than fob you off with flim flam, here is what happened to me. I had to give up my job. I lost my house. And I lost thousands and thousands of dollar. That was the price I paid for obedience. Love the Lord your god with all your heart. It comes with a price.

It is a case of trusting God. Not easy when you stand at the edge of the abyss and he says jump, I'll catch you.

I admire your conviction, headingly, although I don't share your commitment to that particular issue. I respect that you do, however, and that you have the courage to live up to your convictions. Given that the Sabbath is just another work day for me personally, I guess it's hard for me to adopt such an approach.

When you say it is hard for you, please take my word for it when I say I understand your position. Try looking at the situation from God's perspective. It might help. In Acts, we read that God is going to restore his government and that of it's increase there will be no end. That is, forever.

God wants to know what choices we will make. He knows in advance but He wants to see us make those choices. Daniel, Moses, David etc, had choices and made them. They will form God's government. The invitation is open to us too. God says, let no man take your crown. therefore, we can assume with confidence we have a crown to lose.

As we make our choices, God knows exactly how are hearts are postured.

During all the discussion of the Nova Scotia contraversay over allowing Sunday shopping, I heard one person say it best...

"Worship and quality family time should occur in our everyday lives"

These moments can be brief or last a day...a prayer in the car on a drive to work, snuggle time at night reading to our children, listening to a co-worker to supper time discussions, walking the dog and noticing the comforting smell of woodsmoke for your neighbour's fireplace.

We should celebrate everyday... our faith... our family... our lives

To be a Christian is to show your faith everyday and celebrate God's presence in your life by saying "Thank You" everyday to God.

There is no sunday sabbath in the Bible. The Roman emperor Constantine invented it. The bible says: fear of the almighty is the beginning of wisdom and understanding. God demands obedience. Satan says He doesn't.

Sunday until sunset is the first day of the week. After sunset you are in the second day of the week. A midnight to midnight sunday sabbath is decieved gospel.

I am a Seventh-Day Adventist. I worship on the Sabbath which is biblically from sunset Friday night to sunset Saturday night. It is biblical and anyone thinking otherwise needs to seek our a genuine religious leader of any Christian denomination and ask him what day Sabbath is. God created the Sabbath in Genesis and if you read through to Revelation you will find NO mention of any change. Rev. Matt: If you don't believe God cares if we worship on either Saturday or Sunday then why did he make it so abundantly clear in His word? Six days you shall work but the seventh day is a holy day (I'm paraphrasing here--see your translation) not any day but the seventh day. Seems pretty clear to me that God does indeed care. Is it ok for me to celebrate Canada Day on my birthday? I can petition the federal government to move remembrance day to January 11th as opposed to November? God commands us to rest because He, as our Father, knows what's best for us. Of course my petition to change the observance of Remembrance day would be laughed at. I can't change the solemnity of the day. Guess what? Neither can man change the day of remembrance of creation nor the solemnity of the holy day of rest.

In doing our nightly family devotional, this is something that has come up for our family. Which seemed odd to my husband and myself can remember very clearly a time when stores were not open on Sundays ( the typical Sabbath), and now it seems that everyone is rushing every which way trying to squeeze more time to shop and such out of the week.

We have always kept Sundays low key in our home. Our, now teen, sons grew up with Sundays being family days. There was minimal if any connection to the Sabbath, no reading of the bible, or real gratitude for God and so on.

As for if it is relivant or not in the state that it was intended, the answer is Yes. Yes it is important that we set aside time to honor God, honor what we have been gifted with, connect with persons in our life, connect with our community with a spiritual focus.

I can't help wondering what will happen will we discover 24/7 isn't enough time to shop. Will we have to come up with a new calendar to fit a few more shopping days into the week and save the consumer economy?